Works of the law- Jewish identity markers only?

[susanlo]

Since Protestants believe Faith Alone secures their salvation, I find it puzzling that the matter of good works continues to trouble them. If Faith Alone saves, then both Catholics and Protestants are assured salvation simply by believing. So, why such a need to repeatedly revisit the issue if one is confident in their claim?

Beliefs and practices of individuals have changed a lot in this area since the time of the Reformation. Many at the time of the Reformation were buying and earning indulgences in order to receive pardon for the punishment of their sins. While indulgences are still part of the Catholic faith in some form, I don’t know of any Catholics that are spending a year’s wages in order to gain entry into heaven.

Now the issues are a little bit different. A lot of people today (including Catholics, Protestants, and many others) believe that by doing enough good deeds they can outweigh the bad things they have done and be good enough to earn heaven. But the truth is that humans can never be good enough to earn heaven. If we think that we can be good enough to be saved, then we are deceiving ourselves and placing our faith in ourselves and our works instead of in Christ’s sacrifice.

We are all sinners. (Romans 3:23) The only way sin can be atoned for is with the shedding of blood of a sacrifice. In Genesis 3:21 we first see that an animal was killed in order to “cover” Adam and Eve’s shame. Animal sacrifices were used during the Old Testament times as a way to atone for sin. And then Jesus Christ came and was the perfect sacrifice. His sacrifice atones for the sins of all who put their faith in him. Putting our faith in Christ’s sacrifice is the only way that our sins (no matter how big or small) can be forgiven.

What does it mean to have faith in Christ? Some people get mixed up with this as well. Faith in Christ does not mean mere intellectual assent to His existence. (James 2:19 “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”) Putting your faith in Christ means turning your whole life over to Christ and allowing your life to be a “living sacrifice” (Romans 12:1). I have often heard the story of Blondin as an illustration to differentiate between intellectual assent and true faith. I have heard various versions of this story, and I am not sure what the exact facts about Blondin are. However the story does not need to be true in order to depict the difference between verbally assenting “cheerleaders” celebrating the good times and those who will show their faith by trusting no matter how dangerous and difficult it may be. Charles Blondin Story - Faith on a Tightrope

When a person trusts in Christ with all that they have and are allowing themselves to be a living sacrifice, fruits of the spirit and “good works” are evidenced in their lives. These fruits are not the cause of the person’s salvation, but the fruits are the result of the person having been justified and becoming sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo:

Putting your faith in Christ means turning your whole life over to Christ and allowing your life to be a “living sacrifice” (Romans 12:1).

What if they have faith in Christ and DON’T turn their whole life over to Christ?

Then what?

Are they saved anyway?

We all know such people.

Do THEY get to go to Heaven?

 

[Cathoholic]

To other readers of this thread.

Consider Curtis Boyd M.D.

He is a former Baptist Minister.

Now he works as a “physician”.

He is an abortionist.

“Am I killing? Yes, I am. I know that.”–Curtis Boyd M.D.

.

From LifeSiteNews (parenthetical addition mine) . . . .

.

During that same interview, he (Curtis Boyd M.D.) also said he commits abortions on girls as young as nine and ten.

.

But this guy preys er I means, “prays” even as he KILLS!

Again from LifeSiteNews (and again parenthetical addition mine) . . . .

He (Curtis Boyd M.D. and former Baptist Minister) said he prays that “the spirit of this pregnancy will be returned to God with love, with understanding” as he commits abortions.

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If he never repents . . . . Does HE get to go to Heaven anyway??!!

After all, his “works” can NO WAY figure into his justification . . . . at least if you believe certain people pushing certain “flavors” of Protestantisms.

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REVELATION 21:8 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

.

Notice what Revelation 21:8 DOESN’T say . . . .

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NOT REVELATION 21:8 (Phantom Verse) 8 But as for the cowardly, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, why they are all merely faithless, therefore because of ONLY their faithlessness, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

.

Late-term abortionist under investigation after 23-year-old abortion patient dies - LifeSite

(This poor now-dead woman looked a lot like the character “Nina” in the DVD or the movie “Bella” [the free trailer is here])

 

[jlhargus]

Disclaimer: I am a Presbyterian (OPC)

In almost every protestant/Catholic debate, when a protestant brings up the fact that salvation and righteousness is not by the works of the law (sometimes Paul just use “law”), a Catholic will respond that Paul is referring to works of the Mosaic law, not works of charity. However, I have never seen this claim substantiated. How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

[1Cor13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.]

[Jms2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.]

[Jms2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.]

Works do not save us, as the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught. We are saved by grace through faith working in love. Faith alone is dead and cannot save. Works are part of salvation, just as are faith, hope, charity, repentance and the sacraments etc., but the greatest of these is charity, we will be judged by our charitable or uncharitable deeds, according to scripture.

The scriptures do not mention God looking at a soul and seeing Jesus’ deeds or perfect righteousness anywhere. It is God who gives the grace to do good works. We must work with that grace through doing, with the very grace God himself supplies. God’s grace working in us, so no man can boast, all is God’s gift of grace.

[Jms2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?]

First by grace we hear the Word, we believe by God’s grace, we repent by God’s grace, we are baptized to remit our sins, receive the Holy Spirit born again of water and of the Spirit. Added to the Body of Christ, the Church, by grace, we do good works by grace. We are set on the road to salvation and we persevere to the end by grace

We have been saved, we are saved, we shall be saved if we persevere to the end. Salvation is a life time process not a onetime event. Our salvation draws nearer with each day.

[Rms13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.]

Continued

 

[jlhargus]

[Hb5:8 Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;]

2Pt1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue and to virtue knowledge 6 And to knowledge temperance and to temperance patience and to patience godliness 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and [/b]election sure[/b] for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

[Rev 22:12 And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be].

[If faith alone should read, “according as his faith alone”, but scripture says, every man, according as his work=deeds.

[2Cor5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that every one may receive the things done in his body according to that he hath done whether it be good or bad]

[1Pt1:17 And if ye call on the Father who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work pass the time of your sojourning here in fear].

[Mt7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven] [If faith alone, should read, “but he that has faith alone”, but scripture says he that doeth=deeds.]

[[Mt7:22 Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity]

[Evidently these had faith alone=dead faith, They did many wonderful works but they also did evil works therefore not doing or obeying the will of the Father.

[Mt7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth themI will liken him unto a wise man which built his house upon a rock]

[Mt16:27 For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay every man for what he has done]

[Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from Heaven saying, Write: blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth. Yes, says the Spirit, let them rest from their labors, for their works follow them

[Jn5:27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man. 28 Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practiced the evil things to a rising again of judgment[/b

 

[jlhargus]

How do you reconcile the Catholic belief that Paul believed in salvation by works when he told the Philipian jailer that all he had to do was to believe in Christ to be saved?

[Acts16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.]

Acts16:31 believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house] Taken literally apart from other scriptures this verse would mean not only was the jailer saved the instant he believed but his whole house was unknowingly saved at the same instant. In verse 32 we see they were taught the word, believed and then baptized. Just as Acts2:36-42 tells us.

[Mk16:16 And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.]

Paul had a life changing encounter with Christ, yet he was told to be baptized and wash his sins away.

[Act9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do] Paul asked, “what will thou have me to do?” Just as those who were pricked in their hearts at Pentecost, the jailer and the eunuch asked, “what must we do?”

Acts9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

[Acts22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16 and now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.]

Paul received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized and his sins were washed away, as Peter said, repent, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Ghost.

 

[susanlo]

What if they have faith in Christ and DON’T turn their whole life over to Christ?

Then what?

Are they saved anyway?

No.
If they truly have faith they will follow God, and the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in their lives.

 

[Cathoholic]

Cathoholic:

What if they have faith in Christ and DON’T turn their whole life over to Christ?
Then what?
.
Are they saved anyway?

.

Susanlo:

No.
If they truly have faith they will follow God, and the fruit of the Spirit will be evident in their lives.

.

My reply . . . . .

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Susanlo. Good works MAY be the fruit of a real faith, but a real faith does NOT NECESSITATE good works in charity.

We’ve all seen people with a real authentic faith lived out. Then years later they may fall off the proverbial rails.

The Bible never teaches that if you have genuine faith, that charitable works will automatically flow from this. (Where did you get this idea from Susanlo?)

As a matter of fact, St. Paul warns AGAINST this idea telling us in 1st Corinthians 13, if we have faith to move mountains, but have not charity we . . . . .? . . . . What?

Do we . . . . GAIN Heaven anyway? NO!

We gain . . . . NOTHING!

We MUST have charity too. Faith ALONE is not enough.

 

[Cathoholic]

Justus_Et_Peccator:

is our salvation contingent on our obedience to the law?

.

Depends upon what you mean by “the law”.

• If by “the law” you mean circumcision on the eighth day, being of one of the Hebrew Tribes, etc.
  No. In this case you “reap unto corruption.”
• If by “the law” you mean good works done on your own power.
  No. In this case you also “reap unto corruption.”
• If by “the law” you mean moral good works done IN THE SPIRIT of Christ according to your state in life, most definitely YES.
  In this case you “reap unto eternal life.” (But never works ALONE. You MUST have FAITH too. And HOPE as well.)

.

You seem to keep insisting that ALL “works” are sowing in the flesh. (I think you do this because you mistakenly whittle down the Gospel teaching on justification to a moment ALONE)

I have to object to that because it goes against St. Paul’s teachings on justification.

.

Below St. Paul illustrates two differing types of laws. (There are others too)

“The law” in the sense of Hebrew prescriptions. In that St. Paul is “blameless”.

And a morality sense of law of which St. Paul is FOREMOST among sinners.

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PHILIPPIANS 3:4-6 4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee, 6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless.

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1st TIMOTHY 1:12-15 12 I thank him who has given me strength for this, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful by appointing me to his service, 13 though I formerly blasphemed and persecuted and insulted him; but I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith AND love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners . . . .

 

[susanlo]

My reply . . . . .

.

Susanlo. Good works MAY be the fruit of a real faith, but a real faith does NOT NECESSITATE good works in charity.

We’ve all seen people with a real authentic faith lived out. Then years later they may fall off the proverbial rails.

The Bible never teaches that if you have genuine faith, that charitable works will automatically flow from this. (Where did you get this idea from Susanlo?)

When people accept Christ they are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not leave a person unchanged. The Holy Spirit works in Christians to sanctify them. If a person doesn’t experience sanctification from the Holy Spirit, then he is not a Christian. Paul wrote a lot about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, and they are mentioned all throughout the New Testament.

Luke 6:
43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

 

[susanlo]

As a matter of fact, St. Paul warns AGAINST this idea telling us in 1st Corinthians 13, if we have faith to move mountains, but have not charity we . . . . .? . . . . What?

Do we . . . . GAIN Heaven anyway? NO!

We gain . . . . NOTHING!

We MUST have charity too. Faith ALONE is not enough.

I think you are arguing against a position that doesn’t actually exist in the real world. What legitimate Christian organization teaches that you can profess a “faith” in Christ and then continue to live a life full of sinful ways because it doesn’t even matter? I have only heard about these “Christians” from Catholics. I would be interested to know which group this is.

I have learned in the past few years that some Christians believe that it is impossible for one who is truly saved to fall away. This means that genuine Christians may fall into small sins and may fail to serve God in small ways throughout their life, but true Christians will not fall away from their faith. Those who used to appear to be Christians, but are now rejecting Christ and His teachings were never true Christians to start with. People who teach this call it “perseverance of the saints.” These Christians would cite the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:1-9 as well as other Scripture for this. I understand their position and see what they mean.

I have always been taught that we are saved by being in a right relationship with God. I think the closest thing we could compare it to is parent-child relationships. Not all human parent-child relationships are healthy, but God is a perfect Father for all who accept Jesus and are filled with the Holy Spirit. We can deepen our relationship with the perfect Father by spending time in worship, fasting, spending time reading the Word, serving God, etc. The Holy Spirit is active in our lives. We stumble and fail to be perfect, but this doesn’t get us kicked out of God’s family. Sometimes people choose to walk away from this relationship altogether. Even if they verbally claim to be Christians their actions show that they are not striving to be in a faithful relationship with God. These people would not be considered to be “saved.” People like this can later become convicted and come back to a right relationship with God.

All Christians believe that Christians will lead a life filled with good deeds/“works”/fruits of the Spirit while growing further away from sin.

Can a true Christian live a sin-filled ungodly life?
-Basically all Christians would say no.

Are good works able to save us?
-I would answer that we are made right before God only because of Jesus’ sacrifice. We are not able to remove the stain of sin by doing nice things. This has never been how sins have been atoned for. But because Jesus has removed our sins we are able to experience the Holy Spirit and live a joy-filled life serving our redeemer.

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo:

When people accept Christ they are filled with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not leave a person unchanged.

I never said the Holy Spirit leaves people unchanged.

The Holy Spirit is the WHOLE REASON we CAN do good works that “sow unto eternal life” as St. Paul says.

But I am talking about people who were changed then later REJECT the Holy Spirit and as St. Paul says, “make shipwreck of their faith” in 1st Timothy 1:19.

.

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Susanlo:

.

Paul wrote a lot about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, and they are mentioned all throughout the New Testament.

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But I AFFIRM the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

.

You appealed to Luke 6 . . . .

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

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But these ARE good trees that bear good fruit.

But what about later if they decide to stop bearing good fruit?

They have faith to move mountains but have not charity.

St. Paul EXPLICITLY says so!

That’s a LOT of faith Susanlo. (You are not really addressing the issue with your response).

What about people who decide to STOP bearing good fruit?

They are like the Baptist minister I referenced above who is calling people for an altar call, and they ARE accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior as “Just As I Am” is playing, but then he decides he is NOT going to do the will of the Father anymore.

He starts abusing 9-year-old girls by giving them abortions.

He starts killing innocent babies.

He is still even PRAYING TO GOD as he commits murder.

.

People like this may hear the Word, and “RECEIVE it with joy” but later “fall away”.

.

LUKE 8:11-14 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

.

What about people who have FAITH . . . . FAITH to “move mountains”? But have not charity?

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo:

.

I think you are arguing against a position that doesn’t actually exist in the real world. What legitimate Christian organization teaches that you can profess a “faith” in Christ and then continue to live a life full of sinful ways because it doesn’t even matter? I have only heard about these “Christians” from Catholics. I would be interested to know which group this is.

.

Well ONE CATHOLIC you heard about it from is St. Paul.

St. Paul talks about people with FAITH!

And these people have FAITH to move mountains (that’s a lot of faith Susanlo).

But if they do not have charity they gain NOTHING! (Not Heaven)

.

Susanlo:

.

I think you are arguing against a position that doesn’t actually exist in the real world.

.

I think your problem here is with St. Paul, Susanlo. Not with me.

.

Susanlo (emphasis mine):

What legitimate Christian organization teaches that you can profess a “faith” in Christ and then continue to live a life full of sinful ways because it doesn’t even matter?

Do YOU think it “matters” Susanlo? Do you think it “matters” concerning their justification?

Because if you DO, then you will be agreeing with St. Paul and the Catholic Church he belongs to.

.

Susanlo:

All Christians believe that Christians will lead a life filled with good deeds/“works”/fruits of the Spirit while growing further away from sin.

.

You still are ignoring St. Paul.

You are coming up with statements about what you think, but ignoring Sacred Scripture, most especially St. Paul.

What about people who have FAITH to move mountains, but have not charity?

Are they saved anyway?

Do such people NOT EXIST? (If that’s the case please explain WHY St. Paul would warn us about such people . . . . if . . . . such people . . . . don’t exist)?

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo is apparently not going to answer this?? (I will still wait.)

.

Some people maintain the Bible teaches justification by faith ALONE.

Ask them where this is explicitly taught?

If they are being honest they MUST say “nowhere”.

Ask them where this is implicitly taught and they will give Ephesians 2:8-9 (almost always excluding Ephesians 2:10), Romans 3:28, and others.

They often insist this teaches justification by faith ALONE.

Ask them if they need “hope”?

If so then it becomes justification by faith AND hope.

Ask them if they need repentance?

If so it becomes justification by faith, hope, and repentance.

Ask them if “faith” comes from HEARING the word PREACHED to you (in Romans 10. A WORK of preachers).

If so it becomes justification by faith, hope, repentance, and at least the preachers WORKS.

Tell them that the Bible does NOT teach . . . . Justification by faith ALONE.

.

(Susanlo. If you are out there I am still waiting for you to respond to St. Paul on FAITH to move mountains without charity resulting in “NOTHING” and how this fits into the tradition of justification by faith ALONE.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Protestant Indulgences.

Susanlo said (parenthetical addition and emphasis mine):
.

Beliefs and practices of individuals have changed a lot in this area since the time of the Reformation. Many (Catholics) at the time of the Reformation were buying and earning indulgences in order to receive pardon for the punishment of their sins.

.

Admittedly there have been ABUSES in Catholic indulgences. These abuses stem from individuals and not from official Church teaching.

For readers that want to see abuses of INDULGENCES NOW (but they won’t call them “indulgences”) if you have a TV, just “surf” the Protestant TV channels.

Benny Hinn type of preaching.

See how “God wants you to support our ministry right NOW! So He can bless you even deeper!”

Just watch for a few minutes. Especially when they have a Protestant Indulgence Telethon (although they wouldn’t call it that).

See how God wants you to send in your money so He can do “great things”!

See if you can’t see it for yourself.

Protestant Indulgences. There are such abuses going on right now, and these abuses are all over the place.

Protestant Indulgences.

 

[Cathoholic]

Benny Hinn Healing Crusade Ends in Controversy
.
LEO IGWE
.
In April 2005, American Evangelist Benny Hinn arrived in Nigeria for his much-advertised Healing Crusade. He flew into the country aboard his Gulfstream III jet with a retinue of bodyguards. But a few days later, Hinn left Nigeria in annoyance and disappointment. He was irked by the low turnout at the event: only an estimated 300,000 people attended the crusade instead of the six million that had been expected.
.
Hinn was visibly angry because of the huge amount of money he had invested in the crusade. “Four million dollars down the drain,” he is said to have shouted on the final day of the event. The vice president of Benny Hinn Ministries, Jon Wilson, gave a breakdown of the money. He said $3 million was spent on hotel accommodations and technical infrastructure, while $1 million more was used up by members of the local organizing committee.
But the Benny Hinn Healing Crusade generated a lot of interest and debate in the local media. A Nigerian pastor, writing in The Guardian, one of the national dailies, urged the Pentecostal leaders to “bury their heads in shame,” given the “prevailing rot” in their churches. . . .
.
. . . Pentecostalism has therefore become a thriving business in Africa. In fact, it has become the shortest route to wealth and affluence for the continent’s teeming population of unemployed youths. Local pastors employ all sorts of tricks and techniques to extort money from gullible folks (as well as foreign friends). They use this money to build magnificent churches, erect costly dwellings, buy luxurious cars and aircraft, and live ostentatiously, while their church members languish in poverty, misery, and squalor.
.
In most cases, pastors tell the faithful to give money to God so that God will bless them in return. . . .

(emphasis mine)

EndrTimes: BENNY HINN CRUSADE ENDS IN CONTROVERSY

.

.

Pastor Benny Hinn: Fraud, Scam & Divorce
.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Benny Hinn’s Gulfstream IV Jet
.
Televangelist pastor Benny Hinn is a fraud, scam, divorcee, and cheat. Benny Hinn preys on weak-minded people to convince them he can use “faith-healing” to cure their illnesses so that they donate over $100,000,000 per year to support his extraordinarily lavish lifestyle. Hinn flies around in a Gulfstream G4SP valued at $36,000,000 and costing $600,000 more per year to operate and maintain. He lives in a lavish multimillion dollar house in a very wealthy area of Dana Point (a beachfront property in Orange County). Benny Hinn misuses money given to him by unsuspecting people, usually elderly, who have been suckered into his spiel. Benny Hinn uses only a portion of the funds that he receives to further Christian goals- instead he funnels much of the money to himself, unrelated political causes, and his friends and relatives. . . .

https://joelx.com/pastor-benny-hinn-fraud-scam-divorce/4863/

 

[Cathoholic]

Protestant Indulgences.

If we want to talk about Indulgences, we COULD talk about the late Harold Camping and many others as well.

But of course talking about indulgences, be they Protestant Indulgences, or individual Catholics who abuse legitimate use of them, does nothing to support . . . .

. . . . Justification by Faith ALONE!

Bringing up “indulgences” is merely an anti-Catholic emotional ploy to try to make up for an argument that has . . . “no merit” in this world OR in the world to come. The argument of justification by faith ALONE.

(I am not saying Susanlo is an anti-Catholic by the way. Susanlo may have merely unwittingly picked this argumentation up from others who ARE anti-Catholic.)

 

[susanlo]

Well ONE CATHOLIC you heard about it from is St. Paul.

St. Paul talks about people with FAITH!

And these people have FAITH to move mountains (that’s a lot of faith Susanlo).

But if they do not have charity they gain NOTHING! (Not Heaven)

1 Corinthians 13 “1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”

I don’t understand what you are getting at with this passage. This passage is not about justification before God. This passage is about Christian character in the face of church disputes. In this passage he isn’t instructing them to do loving things or “works” or “charity.” He is instructing the church that Christians should be filled with love (agape - noun). http://biblehub.com/greek/26.htm

Preceding this in chapter 12 he wrote about some of the gifts from the Spirit believers have. Many of the gifts mentioned in chapter 12 are reflected in the verses of chapter 13 above. He is using hyperboles to describe how these spiritual gifts pale in comparison to Christian agape love which is an essential trait for Christians. He spends the rest of the chapter defining the attributes of agape love.

I think your problem here is with St. Paul, Susanlo. Not with me.

I am not disagreeing with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians. I am saying that all Christians believe that Christians must live a life reflective of their relationship with Jesus. Justification by faith alone does not mean one can profess a belief in Jesus and then lead a life marked by evil and sinful ways. This is not what was taught by the reformers at the time of the Reformation. This belief is a misrepresentation put forth by anti-protestants.

 

[susanlo]

Do YOU think it “matters” Susanlo? Do you think it “matters” concerning their justification?

Because if you DO, then you will be agreeing with St. Paul and the Catholic Church he belongs to.

.

Justification: “the act of God whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.” http://www.dictionary.com/browse/justification?s=t

How do humans have the stains of sin removed? Can people do enough good deeds and build up an account of good to erase the bad? Is there a legal balance with all of our sins on one side and all of our good deeds, prayers, etc. on the other side? Can we do enough good to outweigh the bad? Is that how we can become good enough to be saved from our sins?

I don’t think that is how it works. The penalty for sin has always been death. In the Old Testament God allowed animals to be substituted and killed for the sins of people. Jesus was sacrificed as the perfect sacrifice. His sacrifice is enough to remove all sins from all humans who put their faith in Him. We do not have to add in additional merits as if His sacrifice isn’t enough. If we could just be good enough to earn salvation then there would have been no reason for Jesus to die.

Really I think it comes down to:
Catholic: A Christian must do good works in order to qualify as a Christian.
Protestant: A Christian who has genuine faith will do good works.

You still are ignoring St. Paul.

You are coming up with statements about what you think, but ignoring Sacred Scripture, most especially St. Paul.

What about people who have FAITH to move mountains, but have not charity?

Are they saved anyway?

Do such people NOT EXIST? (If that’s the case please explain WHY St. Paul would warn us about such people . . . . if . . . . such people . . . . don’t exist)?

Who are the people you know who have moved mountains? I haven’t met any. I think he is just using a hyperbole to make a point.

 

[susanlo]

See how “God wants you to support our ministry right NOW! So He can bless you even deeper!”

Just watch for a few minutes. Especially when they have a Protestant Indulgence Telethon (although they wouldn’t call it that).

See how God wants you to send in your money so He can do “great things”!

See if you can’t see it for yourself.

Protestant Indulgences. There are such abuses going on right now, and these abuses are all over the place.

There are people out there who try to profit off of the “prosperity Gospel.” These are charlatans and do not seem to be true Christians. I will not defend their ministry as I find it quite offensive. Their message is not something that goes back to the time of the early reformers, but is something that has developed in the past 100 or so years with the development of mass media.

But of course talking about indulgences, be they Protestant Indulgences, or individual Catholics who abuse legitimate use of them, does nothing to support . . . .

. . . . Justification by Faith ALONE!

Bringing up “indulgences” is merely an anti-Catholic emotional ploy to try to make up for an argument that has . . . “no merit” in this world OR in the world to come. The argument of justification by faith ALONE.

Catholic Medieval indulgences are quite relevant to the topic. It was the selling of indulgences that inspired Martin Luther to write the 95 Theses. He didn’t write them because he thought Christians should stop helping the poor and stop praying. He wrote the 95 Theses because he was frustrated with people in his congregation using all of their income to buy a piece of paper guaranteeing them salvation no matter how sinful they were. Martin Luther developed his idea of “Sola Fide” because he had struggled with the intense fear of never being a good enough Christian for God to forgive. He felt like his works were not good enough to outweigh his sinfulness, and with this mindset he developed his ideas. Sola Fide was created in response to Medieval Catholic works-based teaching and not 21st century Catholic teaching.