Works of the law- Jewish identity markers only?

[rcwitness]

2 Peter 1

For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, virtue with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with devotion, devotion with mutual affection, mutual affection with love. If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble. For, in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.

Peter tells us to “supplement” our faith, or we will be fruitless. This is why “believing in” Jesus is not about merely believing, but doing what is right. We can never earn faith or works done in faith. But we can reject faith by not doing the works of faith.

1 Corinthians 15
Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Paul says our belief is vain without holding fast.

Revelations 2
Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. 5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Jesus requires works in Him.

 

[Cathoholic]

Think about it Susanlo.

You have a guy who has FAITH. (Remember “faith” ALONE SAVES people in your tradition).

And by the way, this guy has FAITH “to move mountains”. You said this moving mountains is a symbolic expression.

I can get on board with that.

So we got a guy with GREAT FAITH. Is he saved?

Because after all, YOU insisted you are saved by FAITH ALONE.

And he HAS faith ALONE. The passage says so!

But whoops. He doesn’t have CHARITY!

But since you are saved (in Susanlo world) by faith ALONE, and this guy HAS BIG FAITH, this guy gains Heaven anyway right?

WRONG!

This guy with great faith gains NOTHING!

Why?

Fortunately St. Paul tells us “why”.

Because he doesn’t have CHARITY. He lacks LOVE.

So he cannot be saved.

What St. Paul is teaching here is NOT justification by faith ALONE!

Here is a guy with big time FAITH, yet he is NOT saved. He gains not Heaven with this faith, but gains "NOTHING!"

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1st CORINTHIANS 13:2b-3 if I have ALL FAITH, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I GAIN NOTHING.

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This passage does not teach justification by faith ALONE.
St. Paul never teaches justification by faith ALONE.
The Bible never teaches justification by faith ALONE.

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I believe these passages Susanlo. You do not seem to.

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo:

Justification by faith alone does not mean one can profess a belief in Jesus and then lead a life marked by evil and sinful ways. . . . .

But I am not saying he necessarily lives a life “marked by evil and sinful ways”.

I am saying he LACKS the supernatural virtue of CHARITY. Just like St. Paul is saying that.

Which leads me to conclude again, that your issue is with St. Paul and the Bible.

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Justification by faith alone does not mean one can profess a belief in Jesus and then lead a life marked by evil and sinful ways. . . . .

So if he has “faith” and his life IS “marked by evil and sinful ways” he cannot get to Heaven right Susanlo?

And you are agreeing with the Catholic Church right? (You are not going to take the "anti-Protestant position I hope).

If he has “faith” and his life IS . . . . “marked by evil and sinful ways” . . . . he cannot get to Heaven DESPITE HAVING FAITH right Susanlo?

Because St. Paul EXPLICITLY SAID . . . this guy HAS FAITH! (“Faith” to move mountains in fact. Yes a figurative term but still a LOT of “faith”).

And I want to know if YOU think he can get to Heaven without Charity?

I want to know if YOU think this guy who HAS FAITH, can get to Heaven without Charity?

The Bible says he can’t. St. Paul says he can’t. I say he can’t.

(And St. Paul doesn’t say he CAN’T have faith without charity because St. Paul EXPLICITLY says he CAN have faith without charity!)

What do YOU say?

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo:

Can people do enough good deeds and build up an account of good to erase the bad? Is there a legal balance with all of our sins on one side and all of our good deeds, prayers, etc. on the other side? Can we do enough good to outweigh the bad? Is that how we can become good enough to be saved from our sins?

No Susanlo but there is another option that you are not mentioning. (People UNITED to Christ. People who live by and IN the Holy Spirit.)

And I am not going to fall for Special Pleading fallacies.

From Google . .

argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view.

And I will deal with that option you are ignoring after you answer about St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13.

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Susanlo:

Really I think it comes down to:
Catholic: A Christian must do good works in order to qualify as a Christian.
Protestant: A Christian who has genuine faith will do good works.

Not even close for the Catholic position Susanlo. (But again. I will deal with that later.)

 

[rcwitness]

Acts 14
“It is necessary for us to undergo many hardships to enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[Midge]

I’m Jewish.

There is a problem with calling “works of the Law” a “Jewish identity marker” and with some of the arguments presented. For instance:

• Jews don’t follow the Mosaic Law in order to gain salvation as there is no doctrine or theology of salvation in our religion.
• Observance of the Mosaic Law is an act of freedom. Observing the mitzvahs (commandments) of God’s Law are the opposite of observing man’s law, which lead to slavery as they did in Egypt. Now as freed individuals, the Israelites were free to observe God’s law instead of human law. Observing the Mosaic Law brought no merit, only freedom from the law of humans which brought slavery.
• Observance of any mitzvah (commandment or “good work”) cannot bring any merit, therefore, before God. Jewish teaching observes that if one performs a mitzvah expecting to receive merit from God because of its performance, that person should expect not to receive the merit from God. Therefore one cannot teach the Jews have ever believed that righteousness comes from works of the Law.

Without a belief in salvation and merit in doing works of the Law, one cannot say that these are “identity markers” of Jews.

However, Jews do not argue that Catholics are not faithful. While our theologies are not compatible whatsoever, it is recognized by even Jews themselves that Catholics are not laboring for a place in Heaven. They are people of faith. But Catholics also make sure that faith is something very real and practical by their actions.

This isn’t to say that Protestants don’t do the same thing. I know many Protestants that do. But this argument goes around needlessly in circles when it came to an official end in the year 1999 with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. I’m Jewish, and I even know that.

That declaration makes most of the arguments on both sides on this thread by Catholics and Protestants obsolete. If your arguments don’t represent the current official stand of your respective churches, you don’t have an argument. If you are spouting old, useless information that your churches abandoned long ago (because most Protestant churches adopted that declaration along with the LWF, and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation by works), then you’re not doing yourself or your religion any favors. And you’re not proving your point.

But ignore that part if you want. At least you should know that Jews don’t observe the Law in any way or form or for any reason similar to the way it is being used in the arguments here presented. So it is unfair to be calling “works of the Law” Jewish identity markers as you are misusing that term in the first place.

 

[Cathoholic]

Hi Midge.

Welcome to CAF.

I have a link concerning The Dead Sea Scrolls and the term “the law” which you may be interested in.

https://catholicproductions.com/collections/john-bergsma/products/the-dead-sea-scrolls-and-the-jewish-roots-of-the-church?variant=&variant=31150101325

Go and download the free outline if interested.

You stated . . .

Jews don’t follow the Mosaic Law in order to gain salvation as there is no doctrine or theology of salvation in our religion.

Yes but Jewish people DO follow the Mosaic Law concerning Covenant membership which is deeply ingrained not just in the Jewish ethos, but the Catholic ethos as well.

GENESIS 17:7-14 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
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9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

(emphasis mine)

 

[Midge]

Cathoholic,

Jews no longer universally practice or demand circumcision of males. Obviously you are not aware of this.

Christians are often under the impression that the Bible is all there is to the Mosaic Law or Torah. That is not true. Torah is not confined to the Bible. For Jews, the Bible or the Tanakh/Hebrew Scriptures (or what Christians called the “Old Testament”) contains largely the Liturgical expression of the Mosaic Law as well as the first attempts to categorize it.

But Torah is not confined to Scripture as Christians understand it. It continues on in the writings of the sages and teachers of the Jewish people up to the present modern times. Torah is our attempt to understand God and the freedom living in God’s way. This understanding has grown over millennia.

Christians often mistake the Torah or Mosaic Law for something static, confined to the words of the Bible. But for Jews it goes far beyond this and evolves with the Jewish people. Just like any relationship grows, the Covenant relationship itself and the Torah evolves with us as does our understanding of Torah. It does not remain static, nor is it confined to the first ancient expressions of it as found in Scripture or the ancient practices of thousands of years ago.

So you are not correct regarding our views. Our past traditions may have a say on what we do today, but they do not have the final word.

(As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, they have no real practical theological value in Judaism of today. It is mainly Christianity that finds great curiosity in them.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge:

Observance of any mitzvah (commandment or “good work”) cannot bring any merit, therefore, before God.

Look Midge. If you want to think that, I’m OK with that.

But not everybody thinks this, at least in SOME circumstances like vicarious offerings.

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Rabbi Donin (on praying the Kaddish) . . . .

“if in the midst of grief and personal loss, when the tendency to blame and reject God might arise, a person nevertheless rises publicly to express
these words of faith and trust in God this is AN ACT OF GREAT MERIT to the soul of the deceased, for the deceased is credited with having raised a child capable of such an act of faith. In this sense only can the Kaddish be regarded as an indirect prayer for the dead.” Its recitation accrues to the merit of the soul in the judgment that takes place in the world to come (bold emphasis mine).”
- Rabbi Hayim Halevy Donin from his book: To Be A Jew

(emphasis mine. If you want I would be happy to attempt to go find my book on one of my bookshelves, and cite the page number.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge:

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, they have no real practical theological value in Judaism of today.

But I didn’t share that with you for “practical theological value”.

I shared it with you for historical context.

And you’ve made it clear you can dismiss that.

And I am fine with you thinking that. If you want to think that, that is your prerogative.

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge:

Jews no longer universally practice or demand circumcision of males. Obviously you are not aware of this.

But I am not saying Jewish people UNIVERSALLY practice or demand anything.

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As a Jewish person, what do you think Jewish people necessarily UNIVERSALLY practice or demand?? (I am serious here. This is not a rhetorical question.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge (with parenthetical addition mine for context):

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But this argument (concerning “merit” in the context of salvation) goes around needlessly in circles when it came to an official end in the year 1999 with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. I’m Jewish, and I even know that.
.
That declaration makes most of the arguments on both sides on this thread by Catholics and Protestants obsolete. If your arguments don’t represent the current official stand of your respective churches, you don’t have an argument. If you are spouting old, useless information that your churches abandoned long ago (because most Protestant churches adopted that declaration along with the LWF, and the Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation by works), then you’re not doing yourself or your religion any favors. And you’re not proving your point.
.
But ignore that part if you want. At least you should know that Jews don’t observe the Law in any way or form or for any reason similar to the way it is being used in the arguments here presented. So it is unfair to be calling “works of the Law” Jewish identity markers as you are misusing that term in the first place.

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Midge. You are arguing more like liberal Protestants that I have discussed this with.

I am not suggesting YOU are a convert to Judaism, I am just saying that I have discussed this issue with Jewish people and with people who hold Protestant perspectives and your viewpoint sounds more like a typical Protestant Christian argument to me. (At least concerning the way you view “works”)

Do you understand that Catholics see “works” of Old Covenant prescriptions, and New Covenant-era “Workings” without the Holy Spirit, as DIFFERENT from “WORKING in the Holy Spirit”?

• Old Covenant “works of law” (“sowing to the flesh”)
• New Covenant era working but not working within the Holy Spirit (also “sowing to the flesh”)
• New Covenant working with and in the Holy Spirit (“sowing to the Spirit”)

And that THIS teaching has not only been unchanged but reasserted many times?

And that we as Catholics, see our salvation not as a MERE moment ALONE, but a moment followed by a lifelong PROCESS.

We who are justified are called to be “justified further still” as the Book of Revelation says.

If you want I can dig up the salient CCC quotes, Pope Benedict quotes, and the “Joint Declaration” that you referred to (that I have read several times) and will be happy to put it into the context of the perennial Catholic Church teaching if you are interested.

 

[Midge]

Rabbi Donin is not speaking about performing a commandment or “mitzvah” of the Mosaic Law. He is speaking about the Orthodox Jewish practice that revolves around their belief regarding the resurrection of the dead.

Outside of the Orthodox movement, belief in the afterlife and the resurrection is not shared. Many Jews do not concern themselves with these issues or outright reject such beliefs. The Reform and Reconstruction Jews eschew the concept of the resurrection. And this idea of Rabbi Donin is not even standard among all Orthodox Jews either.

Regardless, Donin was not teaching that observing the Law brings merit. You may have misunderstood my use of the term “good deed” to refer to any action that can be deemed good, but that is not so. If you note, I am speaking of the word “mitzvah” in reference to the commandments of the Mosaic Law. Saying Kaddish is not commanded by Torah.

Finally, this thread is not about what I think Jews universally practice or demand. If you want to know that, you should start another thread as that would hijack the theme of this one.

There is another thread started by Melterboy2 which he has allowed me to assist where he is taking questions about Judaism by those who will be civil. I note you tend to be quite given to debate and argument as a sport with just about anyone. This type of behavior won’t fly on that thread, but if you are serious about receiving an answer from two Jews, we will do our best on that thread.

For now, let’s get this thread back on track, shall we?

 

[Midge]

And lastly, in answer to your last comment, yes I do understand that Catholics do see their justification as a process. I’m fact, I was arguing IN FAVOR of their right to do so in my original post.

Apparently you are reading my comments through some preconceived views where you fail to see this. You also seem to be under the impression that I am interested in continuing a debate or argument with you. I’m definitely not. I find your approach distasteful since you don’t endeavor to take the time to see what I’ve been truly writing about but, like many who live with blinders on, are probably convinced you do.

My original comments were not really so much about Catholicism as they were about labeling “works of the Law” a “Jewish identity marker.” I explained they are not. You turned my comments into something else. My comments were about Judaism as the main issue.

I haven’t anything else to say to you as neither your comments nor you personally hold any import or impact on my life. Anything further you have to say to attempt to invoke a response from me will be wasted time and likely as inaccurate as your comment about Kaddish being a Mosaic Law mitzvah of merit.

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge:

Rabbi Donin is not speaking about performing a commandment or “mitzvah” of the Mosaic Law. . .

That’s fine Midge.

If they would be better examples, I can think of other prototypes, such as the El Molai Rahamim (this is the way the Rabbi spells it in my book. I realize there are other ways of spelling it) and the Yizkor.

Many believe that for example, the Yizkor has been around since the time of Moses himself too.

Yizkor (Hebrew, literally “remember”) is a traditional mourning service recited by those who have lost a parent or a close loved one. This is based on the Jewish belief in the eternity of the soul and that although a soul can NO LONGER do good deeds after death, IT CAN GAIN MERIT through the charity and good deeds of the living. It is recited as part of the prayer service four times during the year.
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Yizkor is said following the Torah and Haftarah readings on Yom Kippur, on the last day of Passover, on the second day of Shavout, and on the eighth day of Sukkot (Shemini Atzeret). It is said on Yom Kippur because of the belief that the dead as well of the living need atonement on this day. . . .

(Bold and all caps mine)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/yizkor

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Midge . . .

Finally, this thread is not about what I think Jews universally practice or demand. If you want to know that, you should start another thread as that would hijack the theme of this one.

Midge. You were the one who introduced “universal” to my statement when it wasn’t there thereby adding it to this thread. Not me. If you don’t want to address it that’s fine.

Midge . . .

I note you tend to be quite given to debate and argument as a sport with just about anyone.

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Good grief.

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Midge:

You also seem to be under the impression that I am interested in continuing a debate or argument with you. I’m definitely not.

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That’s fine with me too Midge. I’m OK either way.

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Midge . . . .

I haven’t anything else to say to you as neither your comments nor you personally hold any import or impact on my life.

Whatever Midge.

Have a good day.

 

[Cathoholic]

Midge:

My original comments were not really so much about Catholicism as they were about labeling “works of the Law” a “Jewish identity marker.” I explained they are not.

I attempted to address this in its historical context via the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And I think St. Paul who studied at the feet of Rabbi Gamaliel also at least SEEMS to do this too.

If you don’t think “works of the Law” can be a “Jewish identity marker”, that is your opinion.

I think at least sometimes “works of the Law” has been viewed as “Jewish identity marker” in the context of St. Paul’s writings and in the context of the Qumran community.

I am fine with us not agreeing here . . . . OK?

 

[Cathoholic]

Susanlo.

You asked . . .

How do humans have the stains of sin removed? Can people do enough good deeds and build up an account of good to erase the bad?

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No and yes (in different senses).

No in the INITIAL sense people cannot do enough.

But ONCE people HAVE the undeserved, unearned GRACE of the Holy Spirit living WITHIN them, as was won FOR US on Calvary by Jesus the Messiah, who is True God . . .

. . . . but also took flesh (of the Virgin Mary) upon Himself to become True MAN too,

. . . . once we receive that GRACE (via Baptism or “being born of water and the Spirit”) . . .

. . . THEN we CAN and NEED to merit NOT on our own . . . BUT WITH CHRIST.

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As Jimmy Akin has said (my paraphrase) . . . .

. . . Jesus said apart from me you can do NOTHING, but with Him, we can do some stuff.”

St. James puts it this way . . . . .

JAMES 5:19 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

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Susanlo. You said . . .

Can people do enough good deeds and build up an account of good to erase the bad?

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Do YOU AFFIRM Susanlo, that if someone brings back an erring brother, they CAN (WITH Christ to be sure) . . . . “save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins”?

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St. Paul puts it this way . . . .

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

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Do YOU AFFIRM Susanlo, that . . . . in the Spirit (not on your own) . . . . in SOME SENSE you CAN . . . . “SOW” in this Spirit, and then REAP eternal life?”

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(If the answer is “no” . . . this is WHY I said your problem is with St. Paul Susanlo. Not with me.)