Works of the Law

[Erick_Ybarra]

But if Abraham did a ‘‘work’’ then Paul says he would have been able to boast, no?

‘’ for if Abraham was justified by works he would have something to boast about’’ (rom 4:4).

Since we know that works can refer to obedience of any kind, just as James can call Abraham’s offering of Isaac as a work. According to Paul, correct me if I’m wrong, Abraham was justified without doing any works… that concerns me in my zeal to be catholic… for it is there in the text that Abraham was justified without any good works contributing to it

 

[Bookcat]

I was wondering how Catholics can defend the notion that “works of the Law” refers solely to those coded mosaic laws which made the Jews distinct from the Gentiles in the Old Covenant.

Often I hear a Catholic apologist saying the following: “The scripture never says that we are justified by faith ALONE, but that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. They will define the “works of the law” to be things such as circumcision, holy festivals, dietary laws, Sabbaths, ceremonial purifications, etc, etc…”

When Catholics do this, they are denying that man is justified by these kind of ceremonial laws, but they are affirming that we are justified by works of love and the base moral laws that everyone knows.

But I wanted to demonstrate that we should not understand the “works of Law” to be reduced merely to the ceremonial laws. Rather, the Law is recited in some of it’s stipulations in Romans 2 where he rhetorically asks the Jew “You who teach that a man should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery?” (Rom 2). Paul taught that the Law of Moses brought the knowledge of sin and it is because of this that man is disabled from being justified before God by the works of the law. Paul however does not mean the ceremonial laws demonstrate the sinfulness of mankind, but also the moral laws, as is seen from his argument that the command “Thou shalt not covet”! Paul explains how this command brought the knowledge of sin and thus death.

I argue that works of the law include moral works of God’s holy law. What say you

Here this older article by Jimmy Akin can help:

jimmyakin.com/library/the-works-of-the-law

 

[EricFilmer]

But if Abraham did a ‘‘work’’ then Paul says he would have been able to boast, no?

‘’ for if Abraham was justified by works he would have something to boast about’’ (rom 4:4).

Why would he be able to boast? From the Catholic perspective, neither Abraham nor anyone who does good works should boast, because we are justified through the grace of God. But salvation is a gift which we are free to accept or reject, and the acceptance of this gift is contingent upon a living faith. We live our faith through good works.

If you disagree with this, then perhaps you can explain how you see a way around the seemingly contradictory statements of Paul and James. From the Catholic perspective, there is no contradiction.

Since we know that works can refer to obedience of any kind, just as James can call Abraham’s offering of Isaac as a work. According to Paul, correct me if I’m wrong, Abraham was justified without doing any works

The context of Paul’s instructions concerns obedience to the Law of Moses, with his focus being circumcision. Moreover, he was confronting the Pharisaic attitude that a person can be considered internally righteous if he does all the proper external rituals of the Law. Paul never said that people are excused from the moral teachings of God.

… that concerns me in my zeal to be catholic… for it is there in the text that Abraham was justified without any good works contributing to it

Before I respond to this, please take a moment to clearly express the process by which a sinner is justified in the eyes of God, according to your understanding.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Paul says that we cannot be justified by the works of the law because of our enslavement to sin , not an enslavement to ritualistic ceremonial works only. If sin is what disables us to be justified by the works of the law, how can this not include moral commands? If as St. Paul says, all are under sin and there is none righteous, then we can’t be justified by any works, be it moral or ceremonial. I don’t think you are recognizing the context of Romans when law is mentioned. Romans 2 and 7 mention adultery, lying, stealing, idolatry, and coveteousndss all which are good but because of the flesh one cannot be justified by doing them since we cannot.

I believe that in the act of baptism, when there is repentance, conversion, and faith, issues in the forgiveness of sin and a right standing with God. By our regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit the blood of christ blots out our sin. This is what St. Paul calls justification rom 4:7-9).

 

[Bookcat]

Here this older article by Jimmy Akin can help:

jimmyakin.com/library/the-works-of-the-law

 

[POJIUJH]

For instance they quote scripture much much more, they emphasize the necessity ornaments holy life, they don’t allow salvation for the heathen and unbelieving no matter what, they did not allow those who practiced sin to remain in the faithful Fellowship, they practiced a rigorous church discipline, -]there was just as much disagreement with each other than as there is now./-]

I recommend you research Catholic doctrine on this, I think you might be surprised.

 

[onemangang]

I believe that although Paul may have been refering to works of the Torah in said specific passage, I also believe Paul is also refering to any works apart from grace as well. I think Paul is telling the people that you a are not justified by what you do apart from grace, as in justifying yourself with a self righteousness of sorts, it is only by the grace and mercy of our Lord that God accepts our works that He has told us are pleasing to Him in the fist place Charity, givings alms, …etc. So, St.Paul is not contradicting St.Paul nor is he contradicting St James. So, one is justified only by following the grace given that is already working in them. St. James echos thiks by saying one is justified by what they do (works) One is justified by following the grace that is working in them. Those outside the covenant of grace can not be justified outside of God’s grace and mercy, whereas those that have entered into the Covenant of grace are being made just by following the grace that is working in them, which God is the author of. Also, God tells us what works he finds pleasing to begin with, so those following the grace that is working in their hearts, and perform these works by faith are being made just, all out of the grace, and mercy of our Lord. That’s how I see it anyways, but then again I am no apologist, so just my :twocents:

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Jimmy akins article notes the possibility that works of Torah when used by Paul includes love and moral commands.

If Abraham had been justified by works, he would have something to boast about. Because faith excludes boasting, Abraham was only justified by faith.

James is not talking about Abraham or rahabs conversion. He is teaching that they were found righteous by their works after they believed.

Was not Abraham justified by faith years before he was justified by works?

 

[highplainsrider]

And what happens when you have the fathers disagreeing with each other?

And the writings ofbthe early fathers are much different than alot of catholics today. For instance they quote scripture much much more, they emphasize the necessity ornaments holy life, they don’t allow salvation for the heathen and unbelieving no matter what, they did not allow those who practiced sin to remain in the faithful Fellowship, they practiced a rigorous church discipline, there was just as much disagreement with each other than as there is now.

Oh, I’m on to your game here … I don’t believe you know of the “Fathers” you attempt to believe are in disagreement. Not many Catholics have ever read the “Fathers of the Early Catholic Church” and I’m not speaking of those of recent history. I invite you to go back to the First through the fourth century and then tell me where they disagree with today’s function or Faith in Scripture or practice of Charity. I await your response. Here is a web site that will shorten your research: newadvent.org/cathen/16027c.htm. Please read it then lets discuss what you know about the Catholic Church and its “Fathers”.

 

[Bookcat]

J

“How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.”

 

[Bookcat]

J

More

"It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28)…we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.

So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word “Law” meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses. The Torah, in the Pharisaic interpretation, that which Paul had studied and made his own, was a complex set of conduct codes that ranged from the ethical nucleus to observances of rites and worship and that essentially determined the identity of the just person. In particular, these included circumcision, observances concerning pure food and ritual purity in general, the rules regarding the observance of the Sabbath, etc. codes of conduct that also appear frequently in the debates between Jesus and his contemporaries. All of these observances that express a social, cultural and religious identity had become uniquely important in the time of Hellenistic culture, starting from the third century B.C. This culture which had become the universal culture of that time and was a seemingly rational culture; a polytheistic culture, seemingly tolerant constituted a strong pressure for cultural uniformity and thus threatened the identity of Israel, which was politically constrained to enter into this common identity of the Hellenistic culture. This resulted in the loss of its own identity, hence also the loss of the precious heritage of the faith of the Fathers, of the faith in the one God and in the promises of God."

 

[Bookcat]

J

More

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.”

 

[Bookcat]

J

More

“…we discovered two levels: that of the insignificance of our actions and of our deeds to achieve salvation, and that of “justification” through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit. The confusion of these two levels has caused more than a few misunderstandings in Christianity over the course of centuries. In this context it is important that St Paul, in the same Letter to the Galatians radically accentuates, on the one hand, the freely given nature of justification that is not dependent on our works, but which at the same time also emphasizes the relationship between faith and charity, between faith and works: “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5: 6). Consequently, there are on the one hand “works of the flesh”, which are “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry…” (Gal 5: 19-20): all works that are contrary to the faith; on the other, there is the action of the Holy Spirit who nourishes Christian life, inspiring “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Gal 5: 22-23). These are the fruits of the Spirit that blossom from faith.”

 

[Bookcat]

J

More

“Seen in this perspective, the centrality of justification without works, the primary object of Paul’s preaching, does not clash with faith that works through love; indeed, it demands that our faith itself be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit. Often there is seen an unfounded opposition between St Paul’s theology and that of St James, who writes in his Letter: “as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”(2: 26). In reality, while Paul is primarily concerned to show that faith in Christ is necessary and sufficient, James accentuates the consequential relations between faith and works (cf. Jas 2: 24). Therefore, for both Paul and James, faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification in Christ. Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to “with fear and trembling. For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure… Do all things without grumbling or questioning… holding fast the word of life”, St Paul was to say further, to the Christians of Philippi (cf. Phil 2: 12-14, 16).”

 

[highplainsrider]

BOOKCAT: Well said and very succinct in easy to follow thought. As St Peter said: “…There are some things in them (Paul’s letters) hard to understand … (some) twist to their own destruction, as they do with other scriptures.” **2 Pet. 3: 15-16 **
Here in lies the persistent controversial perception by EY in his comfustications over James vs Paul, and his persistent refusal to learn from the sound, plain speaking, instructive discussions on this site. His approach to Scripture is one of a “literalist”, not understanding that there is a historical-social quality laced throughout the Old and New Testament. This has been a very interesting exercise but it seems to me EY is leading this discussion in a circular route that needs an exit.

Peace,
PT

 

[Bookcat]

BOOKCAT: Well said and very succinct in easy to follow thought.

I will let Pope Benedict XVI know if I get a chance perhaps…

 

[Bookcat]

Here are the full texts I quoted from for the above:

From Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html (scroll down)

Plus earlier one:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

Readers: be sure to read them all.

 

[EricFilmer]

Paul says that we cannot be justified by the works of the law because of our enslavement to sin , not an enslavement to ritualistic ceremonial works only. If sin is what disables us to be justified by the works of the law, how can this not include moral commands? If as St. Paul says, all are under sin and there is none righteous, then we can’t be justified by any works, be it moral or ceremonial. I don’t think you are recognizing the context of Romans when law is mentioned. Romans 2 and 7 mention adultery, lying, stealing, idolatry, and coveteousndss all which are good but because of the flesh one cannot be justified by doing them since we cannot.

Seeing as others in this thread have already delved into details concerning Pauline teachings, I’ll move on to your description of the process by which a sinner becomes justified in the eyes of God:

I believe that in the act of baptism, when there is repentance, conversion, and faith, issues in the forgiveness of sin and a right standing with God. By our regeneration and the renewing of the holy spirit the blood of christ blots out our sin. This is what St. Paul calls justification rom 4:7-9).

Then you believe that works play a part in justification. After all, baptism, repentance, and the decision to have faith are all works. Moreover, your description of justification includes aspects of a ceremonial nature (baptism) as well as of a moral nature (repentance). From the Catholic perspective, the Letter of James and the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats (among others) compel us to include the Works of Mercy among the ways in which we have a living faith that demonstrates an authentic willingness to accept Christ’s gift of salvation.

Along these lines, keep in mind that a Christian could meet the requirements you laid down for justification and still end up being a “goat” in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. In other words, a person could receive baptism, have contrition for his sins, have faith in Christ, and still refuse to be merciful to those in need. According to the parable in question, the only distinction between the sheep and the goats is what they did and did not do in the context of the Works of Mercy.

As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the only Christians who describe justification without any works whatsoever are those who ascribe to the notion that everyone is automatically saved, and everyone will automatically go to heaven regardless of what we think and do. This position, of course, is contrary to what is taught in Catholicism, Orthodox Christian theology and most Protestant denominations.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

What happens when God wills that we do a “God willed work”–we refuse to do that work–we are unrepentant for not doing that “God willed work” and we unexpectedly die before being repentant?

Where do we go?

The answer is Hell!

Mortal sin is a reality.

Choose not to believe it and a person is in danger of damning themselves.

See in this scenario we’re not talking about man made salvation or theologic terms–in this scenario the question is asked–where do we go when we disobey God and die unrepentant?

Hell!

Protestantism is built on this possibility not being possible.

The real question isn’t “works of the law” or “once saved always saved” or “faith alone” or “faith working through hope and love”–the real question is this:

Does mortal sin exist and can Hell be the consequence?

This is the REAL question that too many people won’t address!

 

[Bookcat]

"“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ."

“Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.”

“…we discovered two levels: that of the insignificance of our actions and of our deeds to achieve salvation, and that of “justification” through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit. The confusion of these two levels has caused more than a few misunderstandings in Christianity over the course of centuries. In this context it is important that St Paul, in the same Letter to the Galatians radically accentuates, on the one hand, the freely given nature of justification that is not dependent on our works, but which at the same time also emphasizes the relationship between faith and charity, between faith and works: “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5: 6). Consequently, there are on the one hand “works of the flesh”, which are “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry…” (Gal 5: 19-20): all works that are contrary to the faith; on the other, there is the action of the Holy Spirit who nourishes Christian life, inspiring “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Gal 5: 22-23). These are the fruits of the Spirit that blossom from faith.”

For the fuller context see full texts of Pope Benedict XVI linked above.

Now can a person then --after God has “justified” him – loose that state via his seriously sinful actions or serious sinful omissions --his mortal sin that is? Yes.

We need to remain “living” in Christ and should we fall – we will need the blood of Christ to cleanse us of such and restore us to “justification”.