Works Salvation According to a Mega Church

[RHC]

Please correct me if I’m wrong bit aren’t the sacraments channels of God’s graces? K is creating an adversarial position between grace and the sacraments. The sacraments ARE grace imparted to us via matter/physical elements. The best explanation/illustration shown to me, as a Protestant, was when Jesus healed the blind man. He didn’t just declare him healed. He spat into mud, made a salve, and applied it to the man’s eyes. IOW, Jesus used “matter” to impart the grace of healing, just as the sacraments impart grace to those who partake. God is not bound by the sacraments, obviously, and can work however He sees fit, but the sacraments are a beautiful assurance of His gifts to us. I wish K could “see” this

The idea of spiritual graces being imparted through physical means is foreign to most Protestants, though. For example, baptism, for many Protestant denominations, is a “physical sign of an already-existent spiritual reality,” not the actual vehicle of the grace.

It is an almost-Gnostic approach, where the spiritual is divorced from the physical.

 

[slh3016]

It is an almost-Gnostic approach, where the spiritual is divorced from the physical.

Yes, I agree, and understanding this mentality helps to understand why the new “trend” in Protestantism, especially evangelical non-denominationalism is to have plain, “warehouse” type churches. I don’t think that will ever be freely admitted, though

According to them, the Catholic Church and all its Gothic cathedrals are nothing more than an dismal reminder of all the ways that Church had become corrupt. They’ve traded the skilled, polished architects and craftsman old who built glorious, intricate cathedrals for God for skilled, polished motivational speakers is bare, dimly lit warehouses with rock bands.

 

[slh3016]

Right. We are saved only by God’s graces - yet it is through the sacraments that we are able to increase in grace. The sacrament of baptism is the ordinary way which God pours out His grace to us. Yet after baptism, we can reject God’s grace in the committing of sin, which requires the sacrament of reconciliation to repair. The sacraments of Confirmation and Holy Orders impart more and more of God’s graces through the Holy Spirit. The sacrament of Holy Matrimony is so that God’s grace can strengthen the couple and any children they may have as part of their union. The sacrament of the anointing of the sick imparts the graces needed to deal with a life-threatening ailment. Finally, the Eucharist - Jesus giving Himself to us as ordinary food under the accidents of bread and wine - gives us the graces to be Jesus’s hands & feet in today’s world.

And yet, the sacraments are just one way God imparts His grace. What is one deciding to convert to Christianity in general (Catholicism in particular) other than an urging on by God’s grace? What is one feeling sorrow for one’s sins (required for a valid confession) other than a reaction to God’s grace? And it is only by God’s grace that some of the Christian martyrs were able to be baptized by blood through martyrdom before being able to be baptized by water - and how we can have hope for implicit baptism by desire for those who are never baptized.

It’s all grace.

Sadly, K cannot recognize that. Protestants try to put “grace” in a box (their box) but like to accuse Catholics of putting God in a box

 

[Fritz6976]

Here is the latest response from an email I sent on Jun 17. I think this is what is called being “brushed off”.

"From:“K**** W****” <k****@the*********.org>
Date:Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:47 AM
Subject:Re: Salvation by Works

Hey J***,

I’m sorry I haven’t been able to get back to you. The last couple of weeks have been hectic, and like I said in my last email, I’m not able to write longer responses in email chains like this. I actually haven’t had much of a chance to read your response yet. If you wanted to talk about what I’ve written and your response to that and what you’re experiencing at Shepherd, please feel free to give me a call at 818-8**-9***. My extension is 2**. It might be a little easier for us to communicate that way anyway. If you’re up for that, go ahead and give me a call and we can talk.

Peace to you!

K***** W****
Pastor & Research"