"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[guanophore]

We have stated over and over that faith and works are both by way of grace and that all of the glory for these go to God. This relationship of faith and works to grace is the backbone for James statement that we are “saved by faith and works and not by faith alone.”

There are many, many verses that demonstrate the above but I think that the following passage is one of the most important to pray and ponder on for absorbing this important teaching and the source of the works we do in grace:

Galatians 2:19-20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

If I am truly alive in Christ through justification and it is no longer me but Christ who lives in me, then it seems to me that there will not only be good works, but that there “must” be good works.

Comments?

I agree, Pax. There is the issue of our fallen nature, which is not dissolved by our new position in Christ, and the fact that we still fall short. But, I heard a very good analagy recently on this concept of salvation from Fulton Sheen. He compared people to watches, whose fundamental functioning parts are damaged. In Baptism, we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. He replaces our spring, and makes that spring to function as it was intended to function. As a result of His grace, we are made whole, and restored to the working state that was originally intended. A watch so regenerated will tell the time, which is based upon its
“works” that have been restored by grace. The analogy has some shortcomings, but when God replaces the “spring” in humans, we naturally reflect that state by functioning in the way He has intended.

 

[Church_Militant]

Dah!

I can see why this book was rejected as divinely inspired. It’s language is so inferior.Odd that it was considered inspired by the early church and has been part of the Word of God right up until the 1800s when some errant Bible society cheaped out and edited them out of the KJV.

As for language being inferior, (according to your errant theology) I suggest that it is your own theology that is inferior and not the Word of God.

 

[Truthstalker]

Odd that it was considered inspired by the early church and has been part of the Word of God right up until the 1800s when some errant Bible society cheaped out and edited them out of the KJV.

As for language being inferior, (according to your errant theology) I suggest that it is your own theology that is inferior and not the Word of God.

Didn’t Paul quote Sirach in Romans (Sir 33:13 among other places)? This wouldn’t be mentioned in Protestant Bibles.

 

[apophasis]

apophasis is a Calvanist.

You sure about that?

 

[dcdurel]

apophasis is a Calvanist. He believes we are all predestined to either salvation or damnation. Therefore, those that choose Christ are only the elect, those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world. They don’t really have a free will, in the way that Catholics think. They cannot “lose” their salvation. God is fully able, ready, and willing to preserve them to the end so that they are never lost. Therefore, since God has promised to preserve them to eternal life they never choose not to be saved.

Does this mean that the bible alone is not his authority?
Does this mean that he first accepts Calvin’s teachings and then interprets the bible to fit the teachings of Calvin? Is Calvin his real authority?
I thought all Protestants claim the bible alone is their authority?

If Protestants actually accept some man’s teachings as primary, Calvin or Luther, then by what reasoning to they condemn Catholics for accepting the teachings of Jesus that He handed down to the apostles, and they handed down to their successors the bishops of the Catholic Church?
Shouldn’t we go by the teachings Jesus handed down, rather than the teachings Calvin handed down?

 

[Church_Militant]

Didn’t Paul quote Sirach in Romans (Sir 33:13 among other places)? This wouldn’t be mentioned in Protestant Bibles.

You mean, 13: As clay in the hand of the potter – for all his ways are as he pleases – so men are in the hand of him who made them, to give them as he decides. It certainly looks like it to me. Several verses there before 13 are almost exactly what Paul said.10: All men are from the ground, and Adam was created of the dust.
11: In the fulness of his knowledge the Lord distinguished them and appointed their different ways;
12: some of them he blessed and exalted, and some of them he made holy and brought near to himself; but some of them he cursed and brought low, and he turned them out of their place.

 

[sandusky]

You mean, 13: As clay in the hand of the potter – for all his ways are as he pleases – so men are in the hand of him who made them, to give them as he decides. It certainly looks like it to me. Several verses there before 13 are almost exactly what Paul said.10: All men are from the ground, and Adam was created of the dust.
11: In the fulness of his knowledge the Lord distinguished them and appointed their different ways;
12: some of them he blessed and exalted, and some of them he made holy and brought near to himself; but some of them he cursed and brought low, and he turned them out of their place.

Ah, yes; predestination!

 

[apophasis]

Does this mean that the bible alone is not his authority?
Does this mean that he first accepts Calvin’s teachings and then interprets the bible to fit the teachings of Calvin? Is Calvin his real authority?
I thought all Protestants claim the bible alone is their authority?

First don’t you think you should prove Apophasis is a Calvinist?

If Protestants actually accept some man’s teachings as primary, Calvin or Luther, then by what reasoning to they condemn Catholics for accepting the teachings of Jesus that He handed down to the apostles, and they handed down to their successors the bishops of the Catholic Church?

To accept a man’s teachings on the Scriptures does not mean you don’t view the Scriptures themselves as the final authority on doctrine. It’s only when one BLINDLY follows the teachings of men. For instance, the Bereans agreed with Paul’s teachings concerning Jesus, but only as they themselves “examined the Scriptures daily” to see if what he was telling them was true (i.e., supported by Scripture). In fact, the Bereans are a very early example of sola Scriptura. Sola ecclesia developed much, much later.

Shouldn’t we go by the teachings Jesus handed down, rather than the teachings Calvin handed down?

Not ALL of Christ’s teachings found in the Gospel accounts (Mt., Mk., Lk., Jn.) apply directly to the Church He is presently building. However, the soteriological doctrines of grace found in the Epistles are for the Church and reflect Christ’s,* finished*, redemptive work on the cross.

No “Protestant” is bound to Calvin’s or Luther’s teachings on the Scriptures, or any man’s teachings, for that matter. Whereas the RC is bound to, nor can he question, the teachings handed to him by the “Magisterium.” In fact, as a good RC he MUST accept its own doctrine (claim) of infallibility.

Paul was a true Apostle who got his gospel straight from Christ Himself after His bodily resurrection and ascension. But even still the Bereans tested his teachings daily with the Scriptures.

 

[guanophore]

Ah, yes; predestination!

If Sirach agrees with your soteriology, does that mean you will let it back into the canon?

 

[guanophore]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them Eph 2:10

1. We were saved through the faith of Jesus Christ in his human nature by his passion, not our faith.] When we do gain faith in Christ Jesus, we better, by grace, and the ability that he gave to us, obey his commands.

God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them, not that we will walk in them, the creator does not force us to do anything,we have choice, [Free will].

That’s why Paul says in Phil 2:13,It is God for his own generous purpose, gives you the intention and powers to act.

1Peter. 1: 17 God judges impartially according to ones works.

Peace, OneNow1

Why do you think Jesus told so many people “your faith has saved you”?

 

[onenow1]

Why do you think Jesus told so many people “your faith has saved you”?

Most likely because they had a basic belief in one God, and
recognized Jesus’s sound teaching and the works that he did.

Also In his human nature I can picture Jesus, much like Mother Thereasa pictured Jesus in everyone, Jesus pictured His Father in everyone, God’s ultimate creation man.

Everything Jesus did is not written in the book, so I’m pretty certain his human nature came into play quite a bit, such as the story related in good Samaritan. It wasn’t only miricles and wonders, example is the best teacher.

1Cor. 13:13 So faith, hope love abide in these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[guanophore]

Most likely because they had a basic belief in one God, and
recognized Jesus’s sound teaching and the works that he did.

Also In his human nature I can picture Jesus, much like Mother Thereasa pictured Jesus in everyone, Jesus pictured His Father in everyone, God’s ultimate creation man.

Everything Jesus did is not written in the book, so I’m pretty certain his human nature came into play quite a bit, such as the story related in good Samaritan. It wasn’t only miricles and wonders, example is the best teacher.

1Cor. 13:13 So faith, hope love abide in these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Peace, OneNow1

Then you would agree that faith is a characteristic of humanity, placed there by God?

 

[onenow1]

Then you would agree that faith is a characteristic of humanity, placed there by God?

I certainly do! The seed is still growing.
Off to church now.

God bless, Peace OneNow1.

 

[guanophore]

I certainly do! The seed is still growing.
Off to church now.

God bless, Peace OneNow1.

Good for you! Then you would agree that it is necessary for a person to exercise their faith, in order to be saved?

 

[Pax]

Earlier I quoted from Galatians 2:19-20 which says:

“I have been crucified with Christ: and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

Faith and works are inseparable when it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. If I do not have Christ living in me then I will have no works. I will be living in the flesh which leads to death rather than eternal life. This is made abundantly clear in Romans 8:3-5 where it says, “For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Paul goes on to say in verses 12-13, “so then, brothers and sisters, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-for if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.”

Paul also goes on to say some other very important things about what it means to be a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works upon being justified[Eph 2:8-10]

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything: but a new creation is everything! As for those who will follow this rule-peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17-18
So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see everything has become new!** All this is from God,** who reconciled us to himself through Christ…

It is for these reasons that James says that we are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone, and it for these reasons that Catholics believe that righteousness is infused and that our faith and our cooperation in the works prepared by the Father in advance of our justification are** all by God’s grace **and that all the glory goes to God.

I believe that my non-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ live by faith, and that it is Christ that lives in them. They are experiencing and living the Catholic truth, but lack the correct definition scripturally and theologically concerning the biblical teaching on faith and works. Their “living by faith” is congruent with scripture and God’s will, but their “understanding” of what they are living and experiencing is at odds with it.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

First don’t you think you should prove Apophasis is a Calvinist?

Does it matter which man you recieved your traditions from?

 

[mikeledes]

You’ll notice that the metaphor Paul presents refers only to the rich root of the olive tree and the branches. In order to accurately understand the metaphor one needs to first identify both entities. This is where you fail in your interpretation. One could say that the branches, both cultivated and wild, are indirectly “the people of God,” but not directly. The grafting in and breaking off of branches has a much wider scope than what you give it.

Romans 11:16

**16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. **

The cultivated and the “grafted in” branches can only the people of God. The unbelievers (Israelites and Gentiles) are either cut off or not grafted in. If they are in the olive tree, they partake of its root and are thus holy. This can only apply to genuine Christians.

What does the olive tree stand for?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s set the record straight for fairness sake. Apophasis is not a Calvinist. I repeat, he is not a Calvinist. I will not allow this good man’s name to be tarnished in such a fashion. He may be a Protestant, but he’s not that bad.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Romans 11:16

16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

The cultivated and the “grafted in” branches can only the people of God. The unbelievers (Israelites and Gentiles) are either cut off or not grafted in. If they are in the olive tree, they partake of its root and are thus holy. This can only apply to genuine Christians.

What does the olive tree stand for?

God Bless,
Michael

I think there are also righteous and Holy jews who are connected the the True Root. Remember that Salvation is of the Jews. Or do you consider John the Baptist a Christian?

Abraham? Issac? Jacob? Moses?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

What happened!!

Our separated brethern sure dropped this discussion fast.

I was hoping to hear answers to the questions posed to them on this thread. It’s taken a long time to get to this point, why not continue?