"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[guanophore]

Exhorting each other to live piously and do good works, they were motivated by the belief that they were working for the salvation of their souls.
George Whitefield was the first Holy Club member to question their practices. His solution, however, was to try to become a new creation through further extremes of self-denial. Have you ever found yourself trying to earn your salvation? Salvation is a gift to be received from God, and there is nothing we can do to earn it. Good works do not lead us to Christ—it is out of our relationship with Christ that good works flow.

I agree that salvation is a free gift of grace, but I think sometimes good works can lead one to it. If one is seeking God earnestly, God will meet them where they are.

Remember Cornelius? His prayers and constant almsgiving ascended to God.

Acts 10:1-4
10:1 At Caesare’a there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.”

 

[guanophore]

Cooporation is required in the RCC system to maintain a state of grace. Works are required to maintain a state of grace by receiveing the sacraments, themselves being channels of grace. Grace is recieved thru works and the sacraments as merit, not unmerited favor. This grace can never perfect by the very fact that they must be repeated endlessly thru ones lifetime.

I think you are misapplying the word “works” here kaycee. I think what you mean when you use this word is “works of the flesh”. On the other hand, obedience to Jesus is required. Obedience that flows from a heart saved by grace. This obedience is joyful to follow the commandments of God. Jesus provided the sacraments as channels through which His grace flows.

You are also saying nonsense. Grace does not flow through works of the flesh, as it cannot. To say that any grace given by God cannot produce perfection (sanctification) is also nonsense. God’s grace is by nature holy, and makes all that receive it holy. There is no other kind of grace!

The fact that we continue to need grace throughout our lives results from the fact that we cannot make ourselves into the holy people that God has called us to become. We can only do that by continually walking in and receiving His grace.

The biblical definitions of Grace and Faith and the RC definitions are very different.

You are very correct that your understanding of the Bible and your understanding of Jesus’ teachings about grace and faith are very different.

Dogmatic Faith is also a required for salvation, in other words everything the Catholic church teaches MUST be believed including purgatory, indulgences, the Marian doctrines, Transubstantiation, mortal sin for missing sunday mass and other days of obligation, confession to a priest, Papal infallibility, baptismal regeneration, the treasury of merit that mixes Christs merit and those of the saints, etc…

I believe the couching of this information in “evangelical friendly terms” is deceptive on the part of catholic apologists.

It may seem deceptive to you, kaycee, but that is because you are still on a milk diet. You have demonstrated in this post that you do not yet understand the nature of grace and salvation, therefore, you are still in the elementary doctrines of Christ. It will not be possible for you to grasp or appreciate all these other doctrines until you graduate to solid food.

Heb 5:11-14

11 About this we have much to say which is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil."

Council of Trent.
If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema

I think you must not be reading what you are quoting. The part that you made bold states clearly that the good works are of him that is justified These deeds are performed by the saved person. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means. Let us bear fruit that befits repentance.

Does one recieve grace by doing good works?

I think not in the sense you are using the term “good works”. I think you mean here works of the flesh, which do not please God, nor can they be channels of grace.

Does one receive grace thru the sacraments?

Only if they are approached through faith. If not, one will bring condemnation upon oneself.

Are the prayers and supplications of the saints and Mary added to the treasury of merit?

Yes, but I doubt that you understand what the treasury of merit really is. It is not related to initial justification, which cannot be merited.*

 

[Antonius_Lupus]

Sean, what you, guanophor, Pax and Mikeledes don’t understand and refuse to accept (personally believe), is the POWER God has to save, forever, the one who believes in (trusts in, rests in) the Person and sacrificial work of His Son, alone. Oh you believe Christ went to the cross and was there sacrificed for sins, but you refuse to believe God has the POWER to actually save based on that wonderful, atoning work alone.

We belive that God has the capability to save, but he also gives us the free-choice to turn away from Him:

17: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,
18: do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.
19: You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20: That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
21: For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22: Note then the kindness **and **the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. (Romans 11:17-22)

In the words of John Salza:

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Furthermore brother Apophasis, the Early Church believed what the Catholic Church teaches concerning salvation:

"Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time." Didache, 16 (A.D. 90).

This is strikingly similar to St. Paul in

1Cor 15:2, ‘By which ye are saved, if ye keep in MEMORY what I
preached to you, unless ye have believed in vain’.

 

[mikeledes]

Actually you agree with none of it. Paul makes no transition from generalities to specifics, from universals to particulars. He is always addressing “Gentiledom” in general in Romans chapter eleven.

Since this is not going anywhere, I will drop this discussion on Romans 11.

**17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

Can a non-Christian Gentile, Apophasis, stand by their faith (v.20)? Can a non-Christian be grafted into the olive tree if they do not believe (v.19), despite the fact that others were cut off because of their unbelief (v.20)? Can an unbeliever “continue” in God’s kindness if they never were in God kindness? And please note the contrast made in verse 24 , namely, those who fell (unbelieving Israelites) vs. those who were grafted in (believing gentiles). Those Paul refers to as “you” obvioulsy fall in the second category. Who is he talking to Apophasis? Who is the “you”? The “you” are those Gentiles who stand by their faith, have been grafted in, and are holy because the root is holy? Sure don’t sound like unbelieving Gentiles to me. It can only refer to Gentile Christians. But I understand your unwillingness to see the obvious. It would pose a serious blow to eternal security.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[byrdele]

Dear Apophosis:

Regarding your comment about me proving that the parable teach about salvation. Just read them. It’s common sense. But not only is it common sense, but Christ said He came into the world not to condemn it but to save it. If He is going to save us, then He certainly is going to teach us what we need to do to be saved. He isn’t going to just leave it to His disciples. “Nah, I’m just going to teach cute little lessons of life and let you guys sort it out after I’m gone. The Holy Spirit will teach you…” but let’s end that particular statement “The Holy Spirit will teach you and bring into rememberance ALL things which I have said to you.”

If you want to believe that teaching by parables is not a method Christ used, fine. Believe what you want, really. I believe that it is a method. He was teaching in a very Judaic/Mid-East way - story telling. He was using the elements which the people understood - sheep, fish, agriculture in general because that is what they did for a living. He also was teaching many who might’ve been illiterate. Most Jewish men could read, having had to learn the Torah to be barmitzvahed, but many women did not read. Story telling was a way to teach them about God, salvation, redemption and all the rest and was very much in keeping with the methods of His culture and times.

You can disagree all you want, you will not change my view on it and my view is supported by the Church and by most Protestant churches which I have attended. My view is Scriptural because the parables are part of Scripture. He was here to save the lost. He did so in many ways - He ministered to the whole person - healing, curing, bringing the dead back to life, because that is what true love entails is love for the whole person and God “so loved the world that He send His only begotten Son…” and you know the rest of the verse, I won’t preach to the choir. So why would He not teach about it? Oh, never mind. I’m not going to change your mind, you’re not going to change mine, so why keep at it? Well, it is mentally challenging, so I guess it’s fun.

Aren’t we admonished not to throw pearls before swine? If those of you who have jumped onto the website to argue with Catholics keep preaching but don’t sway anyone, from your perspective, isn’t that what you are doing? Just curious.

Regards.

Byrdele

 

[guanophore]

But if one loses his salvation (as RC’ism believes is possible, and which I believe “guano” meant by “pull the plug”) then one must FIRST conclude he actually possessed the salvation he just lost. And, SECOND, all that God had done for him through faith in Christ must be divinely reversed, returning this pitiful creature to his “natural” state, no longer "in Christ, but again “in Adam,” spiritually dead (1 Cor. 2:14).

You read “guano” rightly. However, you are adding on your own thoughts which I do not think can be substantiated in scripture. While scripture does teach that one can throw away the gift of salvation, that does NOT mean that “all God had done for him must be divinely reversed”. The gifts and the call are irrevocable, whether a person fails to claim them or not. As I said before, Jesus paid the price for all. We are all bought by His blood. It is just that some people refuse to get into the shopping bag and go with Him to feed the world.

Your are making a lot of assumptions about the spiritual state of the apostate that cannot be substantiated with scripture. If anything, they are completely contradicted by scripture, which says that the last state of such a person is “WORSE” than the first!

Sean, what you, guanophor, Pax and Mikeledes don’t understand and refuse to accept (personally believe), is the POWER God has to save, forever, the one who believes in (trusts in, rests in) the Person and sacrificial work of His Son, alone.

I don’t agree, Apo. God’s arm is not too short to save, but He gives us free will, and we do not have to submit to being held in His arms.

Oh you believe Christ went to the cross and was there sacrificed for sins, but you refuse to believe God has the POWER to actually *save* based on that wonderful, atoning work alone.

Saying that a person has the choice to reject the work of Christ is not the same as saying the work did not have power.

Jesus chose the 12, He taught them all, and commissioned them all. He built His church. The fact that Judas rejected His teaching and commandments in no way nullifies His work.

It’s as what Paul said to the Corinthians:1 Cor. 15:1-2 "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain."Paul demanded from the Corinthians that they “hold fast” to not only the gospel of salvation he presented to them, but also the words in which he presented it. Otherwise they will have believed “in vain.” To believe “in vain” is to not hold to the whole gospel of divine salvation which Paul preached to them.

Paul used many words to present the gospel. Most of them are not written. However, to us, the whole gospel is not just Paul, as it is for you, but the teachings of the entire NT, and of the fathers as well.

If men’s grip of Paul’s gospel is such that they are not really trusting in Christ, and Him alone, then their “belief” is groundless and empty. It’s not a saving-faith at all.

I agree with you on this point. But I think that Paul taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is the gospel of Jesus, not of Paul.

.

 

[guanophore]

Paul essentially writes in the same tone to the Galatians. Some of them had fallen short of his gospel and were now seeking to be justified by works rather than through faith in Christ alone. They did not hold fast to his word, his gospel:Gal. 3:1-4 “You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain – if indeed it was in vain?”

It is interesting, I was just listening to this book on my bible CD yesterday, and wondering “what would apo have to say about this?” Coincidence?

It is clear that they received the spirit.They began with the spirit. they suffered already for their faith. they failed to hold fast. They fell from grace. You can’t fall from grace unless you are in grace in the first place!

Gal. 3:22 "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe"Those who were seeking to be justified by works actually believed “in vain.” Such faith was totally inadequate to be classified as “saving-faith.” It was religious faith, not saving, and as Paul stated, Christ was of no benefit to them.

Well, ok, we will agree to disagree on this one. He addresses the letter of Galatians to the “church”. these are the called out ones, the believers. He accuses them of desertion. you can’t desert unless you belong!

Gal 4:8-11

8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were in bondage to beings that by nature are no gods; 9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! 11 I am afraid I have labored over you in vain. "

He speaks to those who know God and “were” in bondage. that means they were released from bondage,and that can only happen by grace, through faith

 

[Pax]

Oh, I don’t think so.I think Kaycee handled your Corinthian argument quite well. No need for me to add to it. It would just be repetitious.

His observation about you, however, is the same as mine, and one on which I’ve confronted you before. Your fundamental error, Pax, is that you interpret all the exhortations in Scripture for the redeemed in Chist to live obedient, godly lives as conditional, i.e., threats to their salvation. This, of course, being consistent with RC’ism’s “Last Day” salvation.

But as I’ve pointed out to you before, your interpretation is apropos for the legalistic mind-set. A mind-set which simply cannot grasp the power of the gospel message of the cross of Christ, the power by which God saves, forever, any sinner who looks (by faith) to the finished work of His beloved Substitute on their behalf, alone.

God saves on the basis of no other work than that of Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross. No writer of the Epistles teaches salvation through so-called “works of grace” which God works in/through the believer. They have no redemptive value.

Scripture reveals that God justifies men on the basis of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross alone (Rom. 3:24); and that the justified are then kept by Christ’s present, High Priestly, intercessory work in heaven, alone (1 Jn. 2:1-2).

You have really blown it here. You accuse me and everyone else that see the “conditional” aspects of salvation as having a legalistic mindset, and then you make the incredible mistake of quoting the first letter of John.

In the first letter of John, the apostle uses the word “if” over twenty times in conditional phrases related to salvation. And please don’t waste the key strokes trying to lecture me on context. I get the context. It is conditional and it applies to salvation. I’ve read it, studied it, and absorbed it. “If” you have an argument and believe that someone is being legalistic, your argument is apparently with the apostle John and not with me.

 

[mikeledes]

Here are 5 links on the Catholic teaching on justification and salvation for all who are interested, including our Protestant brothers ans sisters:

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1717

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2209

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2112

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2151

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2138

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Apart from God there is not salvation. Apart from being in Christ, there is no chance of bearing holy fruit pleasing to God. I trust in God’s power to save me and I know that the good works that I do are the manifestation of His work within me.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why is it when discussing these issues that no one ever responds to or addresses the concept of grace flowing through works and the two things being part of an action and not two discrete events?

Salvation and works are not two distinct discrete events.

They are one flowing event.

That flow of grace from God is what saves.

That flow can be stopped by man using his free will.

When that happens–yes salvation is lost until that flowing action is resumed.

What’s so hard about understanding that?

Why would God want savation to only be a distinct discrete event?

How does that bring glory to God?

How does that transform man?

How is that not just a stamping of “SAVED” on the Elect by God?

Did Jesus die on the cross just so men might believe Him for an instant and the rest of their lives either Not be transformed or be transformed but whether they would be transformed or not be transformed making No Difference?

Does that make sense?

Does God want Dung in Heaven clothed with the robe of Jesus’ righteousness?

Is that the best that God can do?

Is God that impotent and is original sin and Satan that powerful?

If God truely does save–and yes that is true–to not believe that man with free will could later impede God’s saving grace that flows through works reduces salvation to just a distinct discrete event and Does Negate freedom of will for man!

How so? Well if Man’s free will doesn’t make any difference is it really free will?

You can have God doing the saving through faith and yet still preserve the freedom of will of man if man is capable of exercising freedom of will against that flowing grace with sin

Or

being Neutral!

Neutrality is the key!

It gets out of the silly either/or dilema and results in Both salvation by faith with God doing everything and supplying the grace and freedom of will in man that makes a difference

Not

because of the good that man can exercise his will to do–but by his will being

Neutral and Not “raising an impediment to God’s grace” as St. Thomas Aquinas says.

The Catholic understanding that Both salvation by faith and man not interfereing in the flow of that faith which flows through works is the only thing that makes sense.

Any Protestant or any Catholic who believes that faith doesn’t flow through works but that works and faith are discrete distinct elements is simply wrong!

Catholics do believe in the predestination by God of the Elect for Heaven.

Catholics will tell you that only God knows who the Elect are.

To believe that you’re one of them is a sin of Presumption against the Holy Spirit!

Catholics believe that man still has freedom of will and that freedom is real and makes a difference–not because by the exercise of that will that man can save himself

But that man can at any time Impede the flow of grace through works–which is what mortal sin is–and man can gain Hell for Himself!

God predestines the Elect! Only Man damns himself!

Salvation by faith through God’s grace but Freedom of will by man in being neutral to God’s will and letting Him do the saving or IMPEDEING God’s will by committing mortal sin is the only thing that makes sense!

What Part of Both not Either/Or

Salvation by grace through faith

And

Freedom of the will of man

Do people Not Understand?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does one recieve grace by doing good works?

Does one receive grace thru the sacraments?

Are the prayers and supplications of the saints and Mary added to the treasury of merit?

I’ll tackle the second question here:

Yes.

“A sacrament is a visible sign instituted by Christ by which grace is conveyed to our souls.”

​

-James Cardinal Gibbons

[774](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/774.htm’) The Greek word *mysterion *was translated into Latin by two terms: *mysterium *and sacramentum. In later usage the term *sacramentum *emphasizes the visible sign of the hidden reality of salvation which was indicated by the term mysterium. In this sense, Christ himself is the mystery of salvation: "For there is no other mystery of God, except Christ."196 The saving work of his holy and sanctifying humanity is the sacrament of salvation, which is revealed and active in the Church’s sacraments (which the Eastern Churches also call “the holy mysteries”). **The seven sacraments are the signs and instruments by which the Holy Spirit spreads the grace of Christ the head throughout the Church which is his Body. **The Church, then, both contains and communicates the invisible grace she signifies. It is in this analogical sense, that the Church is called a “sacrament.”

[1084](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1084.htm’) “Seated at the right hand of the Father” and pouring out the Holy Spirit on his Body which is the Church, Christ now acts through the sacraments he instituted to communicate his grace. The sacraments are perceptible signs (words and actions) accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.

[1116](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1116.htm’) Sacraments are “powers that comes forth” from the Body of Christ,33 which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are “the masterworks of God” in the new and everlasting covenant.

[1127](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1127.htm’) **Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are *efficacious ***because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

It is through the sacraments of the Church that the grace merited by Jesus Christ are applied to our lives by the Holy Spirit.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

But if one loses his salvation (as RC’ism believes is possible, and which I believe “guano” meant by “pull the plug”) then one must FIRST conclude he actually possessed the salvation he just lost.

Sean, what you, guanophor, Pax and Mikeledes don’t understand and refuse to accept (personally believe), is the POWER God has to save, forever, the one who believes in (trusts in, rests in) the Person and sacrificial work of His Son, alone. Oh you believe Christ went to the cross and was there sacrificed for sins, but you refuse to believe God has the POWER to actually save based on that wonderful, atoning work alone.

Apo, you really have no idea what I believe, since I have only argued points on this forum. I have also stayed in character well, apparently, since you are accusing me of what you think I believe or don’t believe.

But, I am curious, if indeed I did believe as you think I should, how would you be able to tell? If I were to sign in with a different username, and argue the OSAS side, could it then be said that I “refuse to believe”?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I do, however, submit to the fact that my concept of salvation does not align itself with that of Rome’s. But this is the fundamental difference between us - I with Paul, you with Rome.

I know who I’m aligning myself with, and it’s not apophasis!

That “state of grace” Rome says is “infused” into the soul at baptism is righteousness. It is what you call “initial” justification." So if one “falls” as you say, from that “state of grace,” he is no longer justified. And “intial” justification, based on RC’ism, is achieved through ritual, water baptism. Hence, to stay consistent with its own soteriology, the only way one who has “fallen” from his “initial” justification can be restored is to be re-baptized.

Did you invent this misunderstanding yourself or did you actually pay for a book that taught you this nonsense?

Original sin is washed away through the sacrament of baptism.

Subsequent sin is dealt with throught the sacrament of Reconciliation.

Now, based on Rome’s theology, one snuffs out this “initial” justification by committing a “mortal” sin. The soul no longer “infused.” Basing this notion on John’s passage in 1 John 5. However, Rome only assumes John is talking about the loss of divine justification here. And John never actually tells us what that “sin unto death” is. But if we accept Rome’s interpretation, then John himself would be at odds with Christ who previously said that ALL sins shall be forgiven the sons of men except if he blasphemes against the Holy Spirit (Mk. 3:28). And this one exception pertains only to unbelievers since, in context, it entails unbelief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ, claiming the works he accomplished before them were of demonic origin. And John himself states that no one who is “born of God” sins (being “in Christ”) and that Christ Himself keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him (1 Jn. 5:18).

And “all sin” shall be forgiven the one who confesses that sin and performs penance. There is nothing at odds at all between the Church and John or Jesus.

Bottom line, Rome’s soteriology is at odds with Christ’s own words and those of John.But guano, your reply with a person unplugging himself was in context to my reply to Pax where I listed many of the acts of God on behalf of the one who believes in Christ. Here’s what I said:Your response was that a “believer” can unplug himself from all these things. But the revealed, divine reality is that a true believer cannot “unplug” himself from being “in Christ,” “made righteous,” anymore than an unbeliever can “unplug” himself from being in Adam, made a sinner (Rom. 5:19).

Oh…once saved always saved?

Is that what you are arguing in favor of?

 

[guanophore]

The RC idea of "*Last Day*" salvation is based on its meritorious system.

I don’t see it that way, but I understand that you do. I see that a person can plug in, then unplug. I also disagree that the RC idea of salvation is based on “the last day” or merit. You know this, too. You know that the RC idea of salvation begins at initial justification, includes the process of sanctification, and is made complete on the last day. You also know that the RC idea of salvation is not based on merit.

However, my concept of salvation is totally congruent with that which is clearly presented in Scripture, especially according to Paul's gospel

Yes, I grant you that you are a purist in Paul, and that according to your Pauline gospel, which excludes the other NT teachings on salvation, including that in the gospels, you are able to maintain a masterful congruency.

Notice that it is "*God our Savior*" through "*Jesus Christ our Savior*" and that He "*saved* us."  It's the RC notion that "one does not attain salvation until the Last Day" that is totally incongruent with Paul's gospel, as well as the salvation teachings found in all the other N.T. Epistles which present salvation as a work of God through the redemptive work of Christ on the cross alone.  Men benefiting, giftwise, by His *finished* work through personal faith in Him.

Your abbreviated understanding of salvation is contradicted in the NT. The scriptures and the teaching of the Church are not incongruent in any way, except in your narrow understanding of “Paul’s gospel”. Salvation is shown to be an event that has occurred, is occuring, and will occur.

 But this is the fundamental difference between us - I with Paul, you with Rome.That "state of grace" Rome says is "infused" into the soul at baptism is righteousness.  It is what you call "*initial*" justification."  So if one "falls" as you say, from that "state of grace," he is no longer justified.  And "*intial*" justification, based on RC'ism, is achieved through ritual, water baptism.  Hence, to stay consistent with its own soteriology, the only way one who has "fallen" from his "*initial*" justification can be restored is to be re-baptized.

Apparently you do not understand Catholic teaching, or the teaching of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught that we should confess our since, and have prayer by the elders to be healed. Just as the prodigal son was received again by his father, in spite of his abandonment of his birthright.

 

[guanophore]

 Now, based on Rome's theology, one snuffs out this "*initial*" justification by committing a "mortal" sin.  The soul no longer "*infused*." Basing this notion on John's passage in 1 John 5.

I am not sure this is possible, Apo. Since the gifts and call of God are irrevocable, and God says that the last state of the apostate is worse than the first, I don’t believe the person returns to their previous state. I don’t believe that is possible once a person has been changed permanently.

  However, Rome only *assumes* John is talking about the loss of divine justification here.  And John never actually tells us what that "*sin unto death*" is.

So, you admit that there IS a sin unto death? For a peson who has been justified!!! I thought this scripture had to be excluded, along with others that are not “congruent” with you 'pauline gospel?

 But if we accept Rome's interpretation, then John himself would be at odds with Christ who previously said that ALL sins shall be forgiven the sons of men except if he blasphemes against the Holy Spirit (Mk. 3:28).  And this one exception pertains only to *unbelievers* since, in context, it entails unbelief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ, claiming the works he accomplished before them were of demonic origin.  And John himself states that no one who is "*born of God*" sins (being "*in Christ*") and that Christ Himself keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him (1 Jn. 5:18).

Interesting, isn’t it? Maybe we should start another thread on mortal sin? It is not possible to blaspheme the HS unless one is acquainted with Him…

 Bottom line, Rome's soteriology is at odds with Christ's own words and those of John.But guano, your reply with a person *unplugging* himself was in context to my reply to Pax where I listed many of the acts of God on behalf of the one who believes in Christ. Here's what I said:Your response was that a "believer" can *unplug* himself from all these things. But the revealed, divine reality is that a true believer cannot "*unplug*" himself from being "*in Christ*," "*made righteous*," anymore than an unbeliever can "*unplug*" himself from being in Adam, made a sinner (Rom. 5:19).

I certainly hope you never come unplugged, apo. However, the scripture clearly shows that people can receive Christ, then not continue in Him. Look how many of His disciples walked away when he told them they had to eat His body and drink His blood?
This is what Jesus was teaching in the parable of the seeds. I know this teaching has no relevance for you about the nature of salvation, but Catholics believe that Jesus came to teach us the way of salvation. In fact, we believe that people were saved, and understood salvation long before Paul wrote any of his letters. In fact, before Paul was even converted, people understood and acquired salvation from the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, if none of the letters of Paul had come down to us, the teaching of Jesus is sufficient unto salvation.

Clearly the HS wanted us to understand the legalities and position of the saved, which is why enough of Paul’s letters were preserved for us. However, they are not to be taken in a vaccuum, apart from the remainder of the teachings. I must say, I find myself astounded that you would do such a thing.

 

[OneForTruth]

II certainly hope you never come unplugged, apo. However, the scripture clearly shows that people can receive Christ, then not continue in Him.

You make wrong assumptions. We can also say the same for you, we must truthfully say…Several passages say the contrary to your assertion:

1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, **they would no doubt have continued **with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

2 John 1:9 KJV 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1 John 3:6 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 13:24-30 KJV 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:38-45 KJV 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Unfortunately, the dragnet catches those who are not of the sheep as you can see below…they never were. Only by association.

Matthew 13:47-50 KJV 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And Christ will say…

Matthew 7:23 KJV 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Not - I knew you and then you fell…I never knew you.

Luke 8:18 KJV 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

And the many passages that say those who are truly His will continue - one of which most clearly says this is Hebrews 3:14:

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Note - HAVE BECOME…

Hebrews 3:6 NAS95 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Not WILL BE - WE ARE

Colossians 1:22-23 NAS95 22 yet **He has now reconciled you **…23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

NOTE AGAIN - Has reconciled you…not will reconcile you.

Yes, there are passages that seem to indicate that one that is born again can fall away - but in the context of the entire NT, this is not the case.

Romans 8:30 NAS95 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:33 NAS95 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

John 5:24 NAS95 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

 

[Pax]

You make wrong assumptions. We can also say the same for you, we must truthfully say…Several passages say the contrary to your assertion:

1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, **they would no doubt have continued **with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

There are simply too many things to deal with in this post to address them all. I will, however, start at the top and hit a few of them as they occur in order.

Your first quotation does not establish what you think it does. It is instead a description of those who teach in the spirit of the antichrist. More specifically it is a reference to the gnostic heretics. John is warning the believers and letting them know how to recognize these false teachers. If they had been faithful to the truth they would have stayed with the apostles and the church. Instead, like all heretics, they veered from the truth and did not remain with the church. It is not intended to support the view that you’ve proposed. It is not a general reference to people never having being saved in the first place.

3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

2 John 1:9 KJV 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1 John 3:6 KJV 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The first quote in this group is problematic for your view because of the context. John is condemning Diotrephes who likes to put himself first and does not acknowledge John’s authority. John even says that if he is able to visit them he will “bring up what Diotrpehes is doing, prating against me with evil words. And not content with that, he refuses himself to welcome the brethren, and also stops those who want to welcome them and puts them out of the church.” It is right after this that John goes on to state what he does in your quote. I would agree that in this specific case we may have someone who might not be born again. That “possibility”, however, does not make the case that people that fall away were never saved to start with.

The second quote you used in this group is not applicable to your cause at all. In fact it negates your view. That verse contains the word “abide” or a derivation thereof. The word abide means to “remain.” Substitute the word “remain” for “abide” and you will see that those that have come to be in Christ must remain in him.

Your third quote in this group also uses the word abide/remain. The real problem here, however, is in the terms sin and sinneth not. Please be advised that the greek makes it clear that this passage refers to continuous sin. We would describe this as a “sinful life style.” Most Christians are likely to sin once in awhile, but a Christian believer that loves God will not live a sinful life style. Such a thing is contrary to being born again. But even this can probably happen as evidenced by 2 Peter 2:20-22 which says: “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

There is much more that could be said about your post but time and space do not allow me to go on. Suffice it to say that we must “abide/remain” in Christ. He is the vine and we are the branches. We must cling to our Lord and Savior in all things. It is God’s saving grace that protects and enables us in our Christian walk.

 

[apophasis]

But even this can probably happen as evidenced by 2 Peter 2:20-22 which says: “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.”

Pax, 2 Pet. 2:20-22 is in the context of Peter warning the saints about “false teachers” in their midst (2:1). These are not true believers. He’s warning them about their true nature, their true character and their eternal condemnation. As he says in vs. 17:"These are springs without water, mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved."Peter is not describing the redeemed, bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, for whom an imperishible and undefiled inheritance is reserved in heaven, and who are protected by the power of God (1 Pet. 1:1-5; 18-21).

But these false teachers after being sanctified (by association only), will act according to their nature. And it would have been better for them to have never been introduced to the "way of righteousness" (they were never “made righteous” in Christ). Peter compares them to the dog who, according to its own distainful nature, returns to eat its own vomit, and the sow, after being cleaned up (outwardly only), returns to wallow in the mire.

Peter is warning the saints to be aware of such false teachers that will rise up in their midst, just as false prophets rose up in Israel.

CONTEXT Pax, it’s always CONTEXT.

 

[guanophore]

Matthew 13:24-30 KJV 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Unfortunately, the dragnet catches those who are not of the sheep as you can see below…they never were. Only by association.

Matthew 13:47-50 KJV 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I thought you said the gospels didn’t have anything relevant to say about salvation? An why is this “unfortunate”? Why would Jesus gather this way,if it did not suit Him do so?

Not - I knew you and then you fell…I never knew you.

And the many passages that say those who are truly His will continue - one of which most clearly says this is Hebrews 3:14:

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Note - HAVE BECOME…

Did you not say that those “partakers” were just associates? Like the partners of Peter and James that helped them with the fish? Benefits of blessings, but not really “part” of the spirit? Or was that Sandusky?

Heb 6:4-6
those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

If you partake, and taste then you have joined into Christ.

NOTE AGAIN - Has reconciled you...not will reconcile you.

Yes. He has reconciled, is reconciling, and will reconcile.

Col 1:19-20
19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

All things have not yet been reconciled to Him, but they will be.
OneForTruth;2163627:

Yes, there are passages that seem to indicate that one that is born again can fall away -

At least you can concede this much.

John 5:24 NAS95 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.