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Church_Militant
Guest
I’d agree with that!
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Linkowski
Guest
Please do not twist my words and comments to try to manipulate the thread. By the way - I would consider changing your alias.
That was my last posting in this thread (due to the continued circular nature of this thread) and it was summarization of the very root problem with the RCC that was raised in this thread which I started. Nothing more really needs to be said over and above my last posting. The issues are very clear.
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kaycee
Guest
Sem
i-Pela´gi`ann. 1. (Eccl. Hist.) A follower of John Cassianus, a French monk (died about 448), who modified the doctrines of Pelagius, by denying human merit, and maintaining the necessity of the Spirit’s influence, while, on the other hand, he rejected the Augustinian doctrines of election, the inability of man to do good, and the certain perseverance of the saints.
thefreedictionary.com/Semi-Pelagian
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guanophore
Guest
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Keikiolu
Guest
That’s ONLY because you didn’t understand what you were doing.
Who’s fault is that, once you understand that you actually DO have to understand what you’re doing…?
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Truthstalker
Guest
This is non-authoritative and ambiguous.
I deny that man can perform good works without grace. I affirm original sin. I affirm that God can do good works through man.
Any merit man gets is a gratuitous gift of God. I am not a semi-Pelagian.
It is strange that you seem to condemn semi-Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Catholic Church. Are you relying on Catholic authority to censure me by accusing me of being one? Or is this an appeal to the authority of Augustine (a Catholic bishop)? Strange that you would appeal to his theory of election while rejecting his theory on the church.
If, in fact, semi-Pelagianism is wrong, yet can be supported by Scripture, Protestants using Sola Scriptura should not complain about it. But I am not a semi-Pelagian.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Charming.
I merely read over the thread. If speaking the truth and quoting you back to you is twisting your words and comments, and manipulating the thread, then you have bigger problems. What is your basis for objectivity?
How many times must Catholics explain to you that they are not saved by their works but by grace before you get it? The problem on this thread clearly seems to be that the Protestants, on the whole, don’t understand that, and it appears to be wilful. I wonder why some people are so determined to tell Catholics what Catholics believe, when Catholics understand what they believe and others don’t.
This kind of stuff just drives me closer to the Catholic Church.
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Linkowski
Guest
You may think that it is very clear teaching of the Catholic Church but I have already shown you a contradictory message in the CCC. Not to mention my own testimony as well as the countless testimonies that I have heard from Catholics door to door witnessing.
The Sacraments are ritualistic cermonies that are explained as being necessary for salvation as well…how does this not communicate a works-salvation system? It seems to be kind of a “grace for works” system.
One of your comments to me was especially interesting…you basically said that the individual churches don’t teach properly but we must be looking to Rome for the proper teachings. For it being Christ’s Church, I would say that this is an inferior testimony…
Your quote was this…
“What individual teachers teach in individual Catholic churches often is radically different from Catholic teaching.”
So, then…whose fault was it that I was a dead Christian in the Catholic Church? I have been blamed as well as my parents…but not the Church.
By the way - what is a Pseudo-Catholic?
There are very subtle differences between our faiths concerning the role of faith and works…BUT…losing salvation is another thing. You would testify to the fact that it is possible. In doing so, you deny a large host of scriptures saying otherwise.
I can say this…I have been justified through faith in Christ…The Bible treats this as a past event - THEREFORE…not a process. A declaration…I am now in Christ and have His righteousness. I am dead to the law and sin cannot be imputed to me such that I would receive the penalty of eternal death. I am washed…clean every whit (John 13:10). I just need to have my feet washed regularly. I have passed from death to life…I am accepted in the beloved…I am a child of God…I am one of the elect…I am born of God…I am one that believes to the saving of the soul…I HAVE eternal life…I am a citizen of heaven…etc. etc. etc.
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guanophore
Guest
The answer to this is very complex and will take some time. Are you game? For starters, the sacraments are mystical instruments through which we encounter Christ through His grace.
It is a sad fact that teachers, priests, and sometimes the bulk of parishes are not teaching properly. Lack of good instruction is a big part of the problem, and I would say, is the core of the problem you were having previously that resulted in “deadness”
Well, let’s see. I think we an probably spread it around. Some will go to the priests and those in charge of instruction for the parish, a lot of it has to go to parents, who don’t raise their children properly in the faith, some can go to the catechists or classroom teachers, and some can go to you, since you are obviously full of zeal, and are not applying your wisdom to your local parish. How is that?So, then…whose fault was it that I was a dead Christian in the Catholic Church? I have been blamed as well as my parents…but not the Church.
The challenge is to balance all the scriptures and teachings to understand the depth of the teaching. Clearly, it is easy to get off track taking things out of context, and in a vaccuum. Perhaps you are much more Catholic than you realize?
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Truthstalker
Guest
Regarding your last point, there are many OSAS threads around the Forum. There is a gift of perseverance also that Catholics refer to, and you might be surprised at what Aquinas said about predestination.You may think that it is very clear teaching of the Catholic Church but I have already shown you a contradictory message in the CCC. Not to mention my own testimony as well as the countless testimonies that I have heard from Catholics door to door witnessing.
One of your comments to me was especially interesting…you basically said that the individual churches don’t teach properly but we must be looking to Rome for the proper teachings. For it being Christ’s Church, I would say that this is an inferior testimony…
Your quote was this…
“What individual teachers teach in individual Catholic churches often is radically different from Catholic teaching.”
So, then…whose fault was it that I was a dead Christian in the Catholic Church? I have been blamed as well as my parents…but not the Church.
By the way - what is a Pseudo-Catholic?
There are very subtle differences between our faiths concerning faith and works…BUT…losing salvation is another thing. You would testify to the fact that it is possible. In doing so, you deny a large host of scriptures saying otherwise.
I use the term “pesudo-Catholic” to express where I am at. I am currently comparing Augustine, Calvin and Aquinas to see who the true heir of Augustine is - Calvin or Aquinas, the reformer or the Catholic saint. I am not Catholic but I am a lot closer to Catholicism than anything else.
A good thread might be to ask the question, “If the Catholic Church has truth, and is empowered by God to teach truth, then why does it do such a lousy job?”
I didn’t say we must look to Rome for authority. But an argument could be made that we each have a final authority on earth, one we defer to in all things. For some Protestants, that is themselves, or their pastor, or a favorite author; for Orthodox, I suppose some bishop, for Catholics the pope, for some scientific types, Carl Sagan or one of his pseudo-intellectual descendents, such as Dawkins. If you asked me if I had a better source of earthly authority than the Church, I would say I don’t know. If you ask me why I am not Catholic, I have no good reasons. I started studying Catholicism because someone I know converted to Catholicism, and I wanted to show him his error by showing what they REALLY teach. It has been a strange journey.
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Nicene
Guest
One must question the integrity of someone who contiunally offers false witness.You may think that it is very clear teaching of the Catholic Church but I have already shown you a contradictory message in the CCC. Not to mention my own testimony as well as the countless testimonies that I have heard from Catholics door to door witnessing.
One of your comments to me was especially interesting…you basically said that the individual churches don’t teach properly but we must be looking to Rome for the proper teachings. For it being Christ’s Church, I would say that this is an inferior testimony…
Your quote was this…
“What individual teachers teach in individual Catholic churches often is radically different from Catholic teaching.”
So, then…whose fault was it that I was a dead Christian in the Catholic Church? I have been blamed as well as my parents…but not the Church.
By the way - what is a Pseudo-Catholic?
There are very subtle differences between our faiths concerning faith and works…BUT…losing salvation is another thing. You would testify to the fact that it is possible. In doing so, you deny a large host of scriptures saying otherwise.
So going door to door, your works, are going to save you are they?
In contending that you cannot lose your salvation you contradict the bible and call Gods justice evil. I assume you are one who claims “Jesus took my place on the cross” Correct?
However I do remember in the gospels the apostles preached in public and people invited them to their homes. I don’t recall them going door to door knocking. Sounds Jehovah Witness.
Mt 10:5: These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,
6: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7: And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8: Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.
9: Take no gold, nor silver, nor copper in your belts,
10: no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food.
11: And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it, and stay with him until you depart.
12: As you enter the house, salute it.
13: And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14: And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.
15: Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomor’rah than for that town.
However I do remember this:
Lk 10: 1: After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.
2: And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
3: Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4: Carry no purse, no bag, no sandals; and salute no one on the road.
5: Whatever house you enter, first say,
Peace be to this house!' 6: And if a son of peace is there, your peace shall rest upon him; but if not, it shall return to you. 7: And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; **do not go from house to house.** 8: Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9: heal the sick in it and say to them, The kingdom of God has come near to you.’10: But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
11: `Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’
12: I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
I invite you to come over to my house
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Church_Militant
Guest
So because someone somewhere told you something and perhaps wasn’t as knowledgeable or eloquent as they needed to be to communicate with you you figure they are right and the Church is wrong. That makes perfect sense…not.
So because you have a different teaching than your pastor does on any one aspect of Christianity that invalidates all Christian teaching. That is some logic you’ve got there Craig.
This goes right back to what I said above. You get the facts from Catholics that know what they are talking about and still want to argue. It certainly appears that the point here is that you simply do not want the Catholic Church to be right and so long as we are not in agreement with your pet beliefs…we are wrong. I’m sorry but that just doesn’t wash.
It’s not about blame Craig…but the fact is that you have displayed an abysmally flawed knowledge of what you were supposed to believe, evidenced by the fact that you accepted the errant teachings of people with Bibles who preached a different gospel to you than the one that the Christian church has believed and preached for 2,000 years.So, then…whose fault was it that I was a dead Christian in the Catholic Church? I have been blamed as well as my parents…but not the Church.
Hey, I did the same thing. The difference here is that when I took the time to get into what the Catholic Church really does teach I found that I had been deceived and came home.
Have no clue…someone’s personal term for something.By the way - what is a Pseudo-Catholic?
Yet Catholicism is not the only Christian church that teaches that one can lose one’s salvation, and the fact is that the Word of God does not teach the eternal security blanket as many Christian Churches errantly teach, and it does indeed teach that one can fall away from the faith and choose to reject it and literally choose hell. This is also another thread, but if you search the forums you’ll find there are already quite a few threads on that.
Pax tecum,
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Nicene
Guest
Point blank? Of course it’s your fault.
The church teaches you to grow in holiness. You seem to expect that someone is supposed to do it for you.
Scripture says that if you believe in him you will “Walk as he walked”. It doesn’t say someone will do it for you.
It doesn’t take a two by four to the head to figure that one out. But yoyu want to seem to blame everyone except the one person who wasn’t walking in Christ.
Advise? Find a mirror and contemplate about the last two people who caused all this by not taking responsibility for their actions (or inactions in this case) You’ll find them in Genesis 3. They too wanted to blame others when God asked.
The first thing a christian does when they believe in Christ is face him in truth and Spirit (worship means to bow down or kneel) and admit what they did was wrong and repent.
Your still blaming others. Have you really accdepted Christ and worship him in truth and spirit?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Keikiolu
Guest
Are you saying that it’s impossible for God to “Damn” any person who at some point in time “does what is required to be ‘saved’”…?
It is NON-FAITH (unfaithfulness) to decline the offer(s) of God.
Therefore, I repeat the question: If FAITH is not shown by the person, under what reasoning are the gifts of God to be delivered…?
Can a person fall “out of belief”, after once “believing”, and thereby LOSE that which God had “given”…?
Very clever…!But can you, personally, be given that “gift” by God,… again?
…and what He’s done is to make you safe, forever more, regardless of how evil you may act?Quote:
It’s not up to you to tell God what He can and cannot do.
I agree. It is up to God to tell us what He HAS DONE. And He has!!!
It’s the “what” that is being GIVEN that we might be disagreeing about.
To me, He’s given you the OFFER of salvation.
To you (as far as I can see), He’s given you actual salvation.
Tell me where I’m mistaken…?
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sandusky
Guest
We do have a lot in Christ, and all of that by FAITH:1 Peter 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ ***from the dead,
to obtain an inheritance which is*** imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
who are protected by the power of God through FAITH for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
so that the proof of your FAITH, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but BELIEVE in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
obtaining as the outcome of your FAITH the salvation of your souls.
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Keikiolu
Guest
That’s cool. Though entirely wrong, of course.
Just think about it…
You say you are (presently and eternally) a citizen of heaven. If you were tomorrow to become a mass murderer, and an entirely evil possessed person,…
…God would be FORCED to admit an evil being into heaven.
That is simply a silly and unacceptable a scenario.
Should you choose to continue believing that is possible, I can say no more than that I’m praying for you, kiddo…!
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kaycee
Guest
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
So works save or condem you, correct?
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Gamera
Guest
My wedding vows were “pre-written” by the Church. But I still meant every word of them from the bottom of my heart! Just because someone else wrote the text, doesn’t mean I was some mindless “instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument.” On the contrary, that “pre-written prayer” helped me to express more fully exactly what I wanted to express. What on earth is wrong with that?
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Nicene
Guest
Cool, I can go out and cheat on my wife all I want, drink like a sailor, kill all the folks who ever ticked me off, self pleasure myself, steal all the stuff I am lacking that I really want, etc.
Cuz Jesus died just so I could do all this stuff.
so much for:
1 Thess 4:3: For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity;
4: that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor,
5: not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God;
Since it doesn’t matter and we will see God anyway. I knew this verse was bunk the first time I read it:
Heb 12:14: Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Strive for holiness? (sanctification) You’re right, I knew we would see God without it.
The bible got it so wrong. Of course we can continue in sin and still see God. Of course we can ignore the poor, the widows, the afflicted and not need to clothe them, or give them drink or visit them in prison or do any of that stuff the bible says:
31: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand,
Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them,
Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44: Then they also will answer,
Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45: Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Think I’m gonna convert. You convinced me the bible was wrong.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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sandusky
Guest
Are there any Protestants, men or women, on this thread, up to this point in time, who live in the manner Nicene describes?
And, do you know any prots who do?
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