"Works" Salvation?

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*That’s cool. Though entirely wrong, of course.

Just think about it…

You say you are (presently and eternally) a citizen of heaven. If you were tomorrow to become a mass murderer, and an entirely evil possessed person,…

…God would be FORCED to admit an evil being into heaven.

That is simply a silly and unacceptable a scenario.

Should you choose to continue believing that is possible, I can say no more than that I’m praying for you, kiddo…!*

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

So works save or condem you, correct?

Works are a necessary result of true faith.

Works don’t “save”. They are simply indicators of faith.

The faith, which is the source of the consequent works, is what “saves”.

Works can certainly condemn you, such as EVIL works (ie murder).

And I don’t understand your Lk5:32 reference, in the contect of our discussion.

Why did you bring that verse up? Thanks in advance…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[kaycee]

Cool, I can go out and cheat on my wife all I want, drink like a sailor, kill all the folks who ever ticked me off, self pleasure myself, steal all the stuff I am lacking that I really want, etc.

Cuz Jesus died just so I could do all this stuff.

Glad you brought that up. Paul knew after proclaiming the Gospel of Grace that many would react in same exact manner as you are and answers your objection in Romans 6!

BTW, you can always tell your preaching the true Gospel when reactions like yours and accusations of antinomianism are brought up.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 **For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- **7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life;For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14

 

[Nicene]

Are there any Protestants, men or women, on this thread, up to this point in time, who live in the manner Nicene describes?

And, do you know any prots who do?

As a matter of fact I do. We have (had) a friend who drinks like a sailor (always has), left his wife and four kids, because he finally told his wife he was sleeping around with other guys. Needless to say they are now divorced. He tells me he is already saved though.

Tims life backs up the doctrine.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Glad you brought that up. Paul knew after proclaiming the Gospel of Grace that many would react in same exact manner as you are and answers your objection in Romans 6!

BTW, you can always tell your preaching the true Gospel when reactions like yours and accusations of antinomianism are brought up.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 **For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- **7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life;For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14

Cool, then it’s as I just said in the last post. Tim is saved after leaving his wife and four kids, to go drink and sleep around with guys.

Thanks for affirming what I have said.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[sandusky]

As a matter of fact I do. We have (had) a friend who drinks like a sailor (always has), left his wife and four kids, because he finally told his wife he was sleeping around with other guys. Needless to say they are now divorced. He tells me he is already saved though.

Tims life backs up the doctrine.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Have you converted? Was it something that I said?

 

[Nicene]

By the way youre the one who posted up Luke as a defense for sinning, and that the works had no bearing on attaining heaven?

Well this is certainly a work, ergo it has no bearing on his salvation. Works, neither good nor bad have a bearing as you pointed out, Jesus called sinners, and Tim is sinning.

Did he lose his salvation? if he has to DO anything to get it back, even make a prayer (a work) then the doctrine of faith alone is hogwash.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

Have you converted? Was it something that I said?

In all honesty? Nah. I could never leave Christ and live a lie. Part of worshiping in spirit and truth is admitting the truth, with ones self and with Christ.

But here is the other inherant problem. You think you can save someone by the very question you asked. When the truth is, which I have yet to see any protestant make, is that no matter what you write, you can’t convert anyone.

It is through Christs grace that one is converted. You take credit where none is due. That’s problematic at the core.

It’s the same with works, it can’t be admitted that they are done through the grace of Christ or it undermines the entire doctrine. And why the phrase “you will want to do works” (as though they are your own) is empoloyed.
Newsflash: Eph 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[sandusky]

Nicene:

As a matter of fact I do. We have (had) a friend who drinks like a sailor (always has), left his wife and four kids, because he finally told his wife he was sleeping around with other guys. Needless to say they are now divorced. He tells me he is already saved though.

Nicene, Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.

Does that mean that Jesus isn’t the truth?

Your friend betrayed his family.

How does your friend’s betrayal of his family disprove the doctrine of eternal security?

 

[kaycee]

Cool, then it’s as I just said in the last post. Tim is saved after leaving his wife and four kids, to go drink and sleep around with guys.

Thanks for affirming what I have said.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Guess you dont understand Grace, as unmerited favor.

I would say just as James does, you claim to have faith, but have no works. That kind of faith does not save. Demons also believe and tremble. Mental assent is not biblical Faith. Biblical Faith is putting your trust in the Death Burial and Resurection of the Savior who took the punishement that we were due! Bible Faith produces good works! A fig tree produces figs, not poison berries.

 

[Truthstalker]

Concerning eternal security:

Hebrews 2:1
Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
2 For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation?

“Lest we drift away” means we had it and can lose it, v.3 indicates we can neglect it and be punished

and Hebrews 3:

12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

and 1 Timothy

18 ¶ This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare,
19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith,
20 among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

You can trash your faith.

This may be the same Alexander:
2 Tim 4

4 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works.
15 You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words.

And

Mr 11:26 “But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

And

Mr 9:50 “Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”

Ga 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
Ga 6:8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Romans 11

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

We can play table tennis with eternal security/losing salvation verses until the cows come home. But “eternal security” should be approached with humility at least.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well, I really thought Sandusky would do better on his open book Bible quiz…let’s take a look at his answers and final score…

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
Can you give me one verse of Scripture that states we are justified (or saved) by “faith alone”?

Rom 1:17

No, I’m sorry. That verse does not contain the word “alone”. You are attempting to make the Bible say we are justified by faith “alone,” when the Bible nowhere says such a thing. However, the crystal clear words of Scripture do say that “a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.” Who is it that is trying to fit the Bible to his beliefs, versus just going by the crystal clear words of Scripture?

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
If a man does not care for his family, does that affect his salvation?

Describe this man: Regenerate new creation, or unregenerate pagan?

Oh, I’m sorry. You can’t answer a question with a question. The crystal clear words of Scripture say this: “If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” Don’t unbelievers go to Hell? So, if he is worse than an unbeliever, it probably means he is in a very low pit of Hell, doesn’t it? The crystal clear words of Scripture say that a man’s salvation is affected by his works…or lack thereof in this case.

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
Can we be saved if we go against God’s will and do not walk in the good works that God has prepared for us beforehand?

There is an underlying false assumption in that question: we can go against God’s will; also, can you give me God’s detailed list of works prepared beforehand for Randy Carson?

Again, not the answer we were looking for. The crystal clear words of Scripture say this: “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father Who is in Heaven.” So, if the Father has prepared works for us beforehand, that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10), yet we refuse to walk in them, we’re not really doing His will, are we? And, if we don’t do His will, do we still get to go to Heaven? The crystal clear words of Scripture say no.

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
If you have faith, but have not works, can your faith save you?

According to James, if you don’t exhibit works, you have no faith.

I’m going to give you partial credit for this one…you at least knew what James said thus anticipating my response. You’re not getting full credit because you avoided telling us what YOU think. The crystal clear words of Scripture say this: “So faith, by itself, if it has no works, is dead.” So, first thing to notice is that it is possible for faith to be by itself. It is possible to have faith without works; but, faith without works is dead. In other words, it cannot save you. Listen again to the crystal clear words of Scripture: “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Do you catch the analogy? For physical life, we must have body and spirit. For spiritual life, we must have faith and works. Faith is compared to the body, and works are compared to the spirit. Can you live if you do not have a spirit? No! So, as body and soul are both necessary for physical life, then faith and works are both necessary for spiritual life - just as Catholics believe.

Originally Posted by Randy Carson
Do you believe that God will give or deny eternal life to every man according to his works?

Salvation is not on the basis of works.

Your answer is, “No.” Yet the crystal clear words of Scripture say this: “For He will render to every man according to his WORKS; to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give ETERNAL LIFE, but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.” I believe that…all Catholics believe these crystal clear words of Scripture. But you don’t. Again, who is it that is trying to fit the Bible to his beliefs, versus just going by the crystal clear words of Scripture?

Okay…not so good. However, I’m going to give you a couple of bonus questions that you can answer for extra credit:

1. Do we need to eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood in order to have eternal life? (Yes or no?)
2. Do we need to labor for the food which endures to eternal life? (Yes or no?)
3. Do we need to keep the commandments in order to have eternal life? (Yes or no?)

Good luck…I’m rootin’ for ya!

 

[Randy_Carson]

I use the term “pesudo-Catholic” to express where I am at. I am currently comparing Augustine, Calvin and Aquinas to see who the true heir of Augustine is - Calvin or Aquinas, the reformer or the Catholic saint. I am not Catholic but I am a lot closer to Catholicism than anything else.

I’m wondering if you might prefer the term “quasi-Catholic” a little better…

 

[kaycee]

Well, I really thought Sandusky would do better on his open book Bible quiz…let’s take a look at his answers and final score…

No, I’m sorry. That verse does not contain the word “alone”. You are attempting to make the Bible say we are justified by faith “alone,” when the Bible nowhere says such a thing. However, the crystal clear words of Scripture do say that “a man is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.” Who is it that is trying to fit the Bible to his beliefs, versus just going by the crystal clear words of Scripture?

So, Randy is saved by Faith and Works?

 

[Nicene]

Guess you dont understand Grace, as unmerited favor.

I would say just as James does, you claim to have faith, but have no works. That kind of faith does not save. Demons also believe and tremble. Mental assent is not biblical Faith. Biblical Faith is putting your trust in the Death Burial and Resurection of the Savior who took the punishement that we were due! Bible Faith produces good works! A fig tree produces figs, not poison berries.

I assume by this you mean “Jesus took my place on the cross”, which calls Gods justice evil and is blasphemy. Just FYI.

Actually that is my very contention. Protestants don’t understand grace at all. Is there one kind of Grace? And what is grace?

Biblical faith is putting your trust in God and exposing all you have done in truth and in spirit before God and acknowledging your sins. Trusting in Gods justice through Jesus Christ.

If you can’t acknowledge God working through you and insist they are your works then you don’t have faith. Even demons have that kind of faith. They knew who Jesus was, but their works are evil aren’t they? Sorry, faith without works is dead faith. Faith alone is dead faith.

It is why the church is called thhe church of grace.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

So, Randy is saved by Faith and Works?

And you just said we don’t understand grace.

You are saved by grace through faith. Grace preceeds faith. you don’t get to reach out for it and name it and claim it. It’s the difference between saying “My faith” and “Gods grace” The former says I am the origin, the later says God is the origin.

We go with God on this one.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Nicene]

By the way, you are saved by both. you just can’t say it. If you don’t have works, you have nothing. If you have all the faith to move mountains but have not agape, you am nothing (1 Cor 13)

Faith alone is nothing. It is no faith at all.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[kaycee]

I assume by this you mean “Jesus took my place on the cross”, which calls Gods justice evil and is blasphemy. Just FYI.

Not sure what you mean. The sense I am taking falls in line with Isaiah 55:4

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5** But he was pierced for our transgressions**, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, …For he was cut off from the land of the living; for **the transgression of my people he was stricken. **…10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, …by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. … For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Nicene]

Not sure what you mean. The sense I am taking falls in line with Isaiah 55:4

4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5** But he was pierced for our transgressions**, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, …For he was cut off from the land of the living; for **the transgression of my people he was stricken. **…10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, …by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. … For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I am quite familiar with the passage. You got it from a catholic book after all.

Are you saying Jesus took your place on the cross? You seem to ber implying it. (and it is an oft uttered phrase) It’s a simple question.

However noting the passage:
What did Jesus die for? Our sins.
What did he not die for? To relieve us of our responsibility as sons of God to help others.

Is there a consequence for the later?
As a baptist recently told me. "
“Any person who is not trusting in Jesus to the point of faithfully obeying him is on the road to hell”

He got that one right.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Randy_Carson]

So, Randy is saved by Faith and Works?

Is that what the Catechism says?

Is Randy saved by Grace through Faith working in Love?

Or is that a Lutheran formulation?

 

[Bishopite]

Nicene, Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver.

Does that mean that Jesus isn’t the truth?

Your friend betrayed his family.

How does your friend’s betrayal of his family disprove the doctrine of eternal security?

Ok… I see what you are saying now and understand your reasoning. You are “saved” and don’t have to obey the 10 commandments in order to be saved because that would be a work and works are all bad.
Nevertheless, even though the first commandment says in Deut. 5:7 (KJV) “You shall have no other gods before Me” to “YOU” as a “saved” Christian that isn’t applicable, therefore you can worship any god you want! Isn’t that good news?