"Works" Salvation?

[dcdurel]

And such were some of you. But** you were washed,** you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
The only time we are washed and sanctified by the Spirit of God in the name of the Lord Jesus is at baptism. The grace of baptism is merited by the death of Christ on his cross, when He redeemed us by the washing of his blood. But this grace by which we are saved is applied to us at baptism.

The Old Testament prophesied how we would be cleasned of our sins in baptism, and how one form of it would be baptism by sprinkling:

Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean
water upon you, and you shall be
clean from all your
uncleannesses, and from all your
idols I will cleanse you.

Heb 10:22 let us draw near to God with a
sincere heart in full assurance of
faith, having our hearts sprinkled
to cleanse us from a guilty
conscience and having our bodies
washed with pure water.

In Acts 22:16 Ananias told Paul after his conversion,
“And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’” (Acts 22:16)
Again the clear evidence that at baptism we are washed from our sins, that is “saved” from our sins. Notice that Paul was not saved from his sins the moment he first believed when he was knocked to the ground, but only when he was baptized. We are NOT saved from our sins the moment we first believe Jesus is God, or the moment we first have faith, or the moment we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. It is through believing the whole Gospel, that is through believing Christ’s teaching that we receive the grace of salvation at baptism, that we are led to receive baptism, and thus be saved.

 "Can any man forbid **water**, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts10:47,48 .  
  Notice that water is used, for in baptism we are washed by the water and our sins are removed.


 "Therefore we are buried with him by** baptism** into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in **newness of life**." (Rom. 6:4)

We cannot walk in newness of life if we have not been saved. But Paul says we are buried by baptism into death so we also should walk in newness of life. Again the clear teaching that we are saved at baptism.

When someone hears the true Gospel and believes in Jesus, he will then be saved, because the true Gospel says we must be baptized to get to heaven. To believe in Jesus means to believe what he taught. Jesus taught that we are saved from our sins at baptism. Jesus says we have to be “born again of water and the Spirit” and “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.”

 

[dcdurel]

Peter said, "**Save yourselves** from this untoward generation.  Then they that gladly **received his word were baptized**." (Acts 2:40,41)


     In Acts 16:31 Paul says to the jailor who had not heard the gospel and believed the teachings of Jesus,

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)
Since God’s word says we are saved at baptism we would expect the jailor and his household to be baptized after they heard the Gospel. That is exactly what happened.
“And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.” (Acts 16:33)
So, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”, meant, believe what the Lord Jesus Christ says, and thou shalt be saved when baptized. It does not mean, thou shalt be saved from the fires of hell, that is, final salvation. For that would contradict all the other scriptures which are evidence that we can lose our salvation by serious or mortal sin. Also it would mean that no one is saved until he dies. But St.Paul says to the Ephesians,
8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2)
“For by grace you have been saved through faith” The Ephesians had already believed and were baptized, so he says, “you have been saved”, not “you will be saved”.

More evidence that when they believed they were then baptized, and thus saved.

Acts 19:4,5 says “they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

“And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.” (Acts 18:8)

 "I **believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God**. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he **baptized him**." (Acts 8:37,38)

We must know that there is no apostolic tradition nor is it found in the bible that we are saved the moment we “accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior”, or "ask Jesus to come into our heart, or commit ourselves to the Lord.
The belief that we are saved the very moment we make these declarations is not found in the Bible.
They are the traditions of men, and are false piety to lead people away from the truth that salvation begins with Baptism, and we can lose this salvation by not obeying God.

 

[dcdurel]

Some followers of Martin Luther will say. Doesn’t St. Paul say, in Rom. 10:9, " That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Doesn’t this contradict all the teachings about being saved at baptism? Not really.
It doesn’t say we are saved the very moment we confess the Lord Jesus. It simply means that if we believe in Jesus and have faith in Him, then we will believe Him when He says to listen to the Church He founded on Peter and the Apostles. For He says that if we don’t believe the Gospel that His Church teaches, we will be condemned. And the Church which was built upon Peter and the apostles has received the teaching of the apostles that we first receive the grace of salvation when we are baptized.
Others will say, doesn’t St. Paul say, in Rom 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
They say “see, we just have to call on Jesus to save us, and we are saved.”
Not true. To “call upon the name of the Lord”, does not mean to audibly call out Jesus’s name. No where in the bible does it say that we are saved the very moment we call out Jesus’ name. The “name of the Lord”, does not mean the name “Jesus”. It means the authority of God, and all He represents. The police say, “stop in the name of the Law”, to mean “stop by the authority of the Law.” Jesus said to baptize in "the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." But when we baptize, we don’t say, I baptize you “in the name of Jesus,” etc., but “in the name of the Son” because “in the name of the Son” means by the authority of the Son, not His literal name.
That is why in Acts 22:16, Ananias told Paul after his conversion, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
We call “upon the name of the Lord” that is, His authority, at baptism.

 And notice, was Paul saved from his sins the moment he first believed? No, it was not until he was baptized that he received the grace to **"wash away thy sins"**.

The new idea that we are saved “the moment we first believe” and not when we are baptized, is an invention of Luther during the 1500’s. It was never taught in Christianity. It is found no where in the bible. It is a tradition of men. It contradicts all the above verses, thus is anti-biblical, anti-scriptural and is opposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And no where does the bible say that baptism is only an “ordinance”. There is no such verse. That is another tradition of men.

Should we believe Jesus when He said to listen to the Church that He founded upon Peter and the apostles, or should we put our faith in Martin Luther when he said that we must reject the Church that Jesus founded and instead believe a personal gospel based on our private interpretation of the bible.
Should we believe Jesus or Luther?
Faith in Jesus or Luther? Who is right?

 

[guanophore]

The thief on the cross was in the prescence of the spotless sinless blood of our Savior Jesus Christ being washed from His body onto the ground for the salvaton of all. Ah I think that covers him and because of his repentance.

Nicodemus maybe had been baptized, not sure .

Nicodemus would have known God’s promise in EZEkiel 36; 25-26
Here was the fullfilllment of that promise standing before him, offering all that the prophet had foretold.
Dessert

I am not sure what you are responding to here (previous post?) but I have wondered about this interchange with the thief. How did he know that Jesus had done nothing deserving of death? I think he must have been in the crowd, maybe followed Jesus. Maybe had even been baptized! Why did he say that his punishment was just? He must have known the Law, and assented that the law was just.

 

[guanophore]

When do we first receive the grace that saves us. Is it the moment we believe? There is no verse saying we receive the grace that saves us the MOMENT we believe. St. Paul ofter leaves out intermediate steps when talking about salvation and this is when Protestants try to say we first receive the grace of salvation the moment we believe.
St. Paul was not saved from his sins the moment he first believed, but when he was baptised. See Acts 22
Jesus said to listen to His Church, not to Luther.
Thus, the apostles handed down the teaching that we first receive the grace of salvation the moment we are baptized by means of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is in perfect agreement.
I will quote these scriptures.
Protestants, as usual, will ignore them.
Protestants, as usual, will say we receive the grace of salvation the moment we believe, thus making the scriptures I quoted wrong.
Or they will jump through hoops to try to interpret them in a manner that justifies the teachings of Luther that we are saved the “moment we first believe”, a teachings found no where in the bible, instead of being objective and taking the plain meaning.
Thus, they have no qualms about contradicting the Holy Word of God, so as to preserved their faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin.

Again, their faith is in the teachings of Luther and Calvin. They don’t believe Jesus when he said to “listen to the Church”

They always go to what Luther and Calvin taught.
Their faith is in Luther and Calvin.
Did Jesus say to listen to Luther and Calvin, or to His Church?

Is this post hostile? It seems blunt. Is it just me that does not experience it as hostile? Were my posts hostile? Please give me feedback, because I would like to be able to make my point without hostility. Guano

 

[Keikiolu]

Guanophore,
So are you saying that baptism is required to receive God’s gift of salvation? I know it is for Catholics, but I’m talking about the Biblical definition of salvation. “For you are saved by grace through faith, not of works (like baptism) lest any man boast.” “Most assuredly I say to you he who believes in Me has eternal life.” John 6:47 Jesus didn’t tell Nicodemus or the thief on the cross that they needed to baptised to be saved, did He?
Don’t get me wrong, every Christian needs to be baptised as an act of obedience, but more importantly it’s signifies and acknowledges the transistion we experience when we are born again. Baptism isn’t on God’s checklist of things we need to do if we want to accept His gift of salvation.

God chose us before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4-5 Even before we were baptised.

God Bless
Robert

THE CHURCH was chosen to be “{Eph1:4}…]blessed …] in christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. {:5}He destined us (the church) in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”

As members of the body of Christ, we individuals receive “the blessings”.

The word “chose” in Eph1:4 is the same “chose” used in the Old Testament to refer to the election of Israel (the “chosen” people).
(( info from Navarre Bible Captivity Letters isbn 1-85182-908-3 ))

To restate: God’s new Chosen People (The Church) were called, according to the eternal plan, from before the foundation of the world.

The “us” and “we” refered to refers to members of the Church, not to individuals outside the Church, unless so graced by God.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Axion]

This bears repeating:

Matthew 25 :31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 “He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 ‘I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 ‘When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 ‘I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 6: 14 “If you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew19: 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

Matthew 5: . 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

 

[dessert]

This bears repeating:

Matthew 25 :31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 “He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 ‘I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 ‘When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 ‘When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 ‘For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 ‘I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 6: 14 “If you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew19: 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

Matthew 5: . 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

And many will walk away from those words also.
This thread seemed to become a works/grace vs faith debate and a gospels vs Paul not unlike what transpired a lttle less than 2000years ago.
We can consider this spiritual exercise, intense bible reading even through in a prayer loss of sleep
nourishing manna while fasting(spiritual hunger) hopefully didn’t lose any sheep or goats to the wolves. And can at present live in the time of mercy.
I want to ask for forgiveness because I feel like I just got caught up in th excitement of it all and do like to debate.
I just read in my lenten book that
"One of Jesus’s greatest sufferings was not the stones or even the nails or thorns, but the insult when he was called “only a man” who blashemed by making himself God (John 10;33) That may have hurt more than the scourging and pained Him more than the crucifixion. Jesus was being nailed on the cross way before calvary. He endured it all out of love for us. "
We haven’t insulted God but we have thrown a lot of words around, I think some of us are baptised by desire and have a hard time putting things into our own words
As the servers at Mass say when we started the lenten season
Turn away from sin and toward the Gospel- or dust to dust
We are still in the season of Grace and Faith. Dessert

 

[dessert]

I am not sure what you are responding to here (previous post?) but I have wondered about this interchange with the thief. How did he know that Jesus had done nothing deserving of death? I think he must have been in the crowd, maybe followed Jesus. Maybe had even been baptized! Why did he say that his punishment was just? He must have known the Law, and assented that the law was just.

I went to a lecture the other day, we have a ladies Spirit Club also for men and the priests sometimes attend, it is of course sharing food and talk. We had a wonderful Dominican nun and two sisters talk and she said some wonderful fthings. She talked about truth and justice. Her example was that we all have a bit of truth in our lives and justice. Her example was a friend lost his eye in a golfing accident but later his grandson was also in an accident but almost lost his eye but di not lose his eye.
I have been back reading some to Genisis and Eve made the statement to the Lord God in prayer maybe. She said Cain killed my son Abel but the good Lord gave me another son. And she named him Seth.
The thief said the truth Jesus you are who you say you are and I must face my punishment.
This sister told us to look for the truth and justice in our lives because it is there. Maybe not right away but you will see.She gave another talk on the Old way vs the New way, but it is more suitable for a thread dealing with Traditonal vs NO. Dessert

 

[RNRobert]

One of these days I’m going to post a separate thread on the subject, but for now I’m going to give the short version.

The whole “Sola Fide” thing is one of the main reasons I became Catholic. When I first became Christian I attended a Baptist church, and later a non-denom church (started by the minister of the Baptist church when he left). There, and in the Evangelical books I read, and the Evangelical radio programs I listened to, I heard that salvation was nothing more than believing in Jesus. Yet, as a good Christian reading his Bible, I was troubled because what I read didn’t jive with what I was being taught. The passage in the 2nd chapter of James was the most obvious, but the words of Jesus himself were even more troubling. Certain passages (Matthew 25, John 5:28-29) seemed to indicate that salvation or damnation was based on what we did or did not do. Even Paul said to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). If salvation was nothing more than “believing in Jesus,” I asked, then why did we need to “work it out?”
Once I learned what the Catholic Church really taught (as opposed what I was told it taught by the likes of Jack Chick, Lorraine Boettner, and Ellen White) I saw that its teaching of faith AND works, was true to what Scripture taught, as opposed to Protestantism.

 

[Odell]

(1 Cor 12:13) “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” Jesus body. Baptism is how we become members of Jesus body. Not by one act of faith. And what is Jesus body? The Church. Baptism is how we become members of the new covenant.

(Rom 6: 3-4) “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death.

 

[dessert]

One of these days I’m going to post a separate thread on the subject, but for now I’m going to give the short version.

The whole “Sola Fide” thing is one of the main reasons I became Catholic. When I first became Christian I attended a Baptist church, and later a non-denom church (started by the minister of the Baptist church when he left). There, and in the Evangelical books I read, and the Evangelical radio programs I listened to, I heard that salvation was nothing more than believing in Jesus. Yet, as a good Christian reading his Bible, I was troubled because what I read didn’t jive with what I was being taught. The passage in the 2nd chapter of James was the most obvious, but the words of Jesus himself were even more troubling. Certain passages (Matthew 25, John 5:28-29) seemed to indicate that salvation or damnation was based on what we did or did not do. Even Paul said to “work out your salvation in fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). If salvation was nothing more than “believing in Jesus,” I asked, then why did we need to “work it out?”
Once I learned what the Catholic Church really taught (as opposed what I was told it taught by the likes of Jack Chick, Lorraine Boettner, and Ellen White) I saw that its teaching of faith AND works, was true to what Scripture taught, as opposed to Protestantism.

Did they talk alot about the Pauline mind of Christ and everything was about Acts? In the Church I was in all they did was say Jesus all the time and talk about how important Acts was.
And it was very loud and people falling down all the time a little weird. I don’t even remember receiving communion anyways.
The big thing was the 2nd Chapter of Acts which is actually a christian band. Dessert

 

[RNRobert]

Did they talk alot about the Pauline mind of Christ and everything was about Acts? In the Church I was in all they did was say Jesus all the time and talk about how important Acts was.
And it was very loud and people falling down all the time a little weird. I don’t even remember receiving communion anyways.
The big thing was the 2nd Chapter of Acts which is actually a christian band. Dessert

There was some emphasis on the book of Acts. As for Paul, they tended to quote alot from Galatians and Romans. I read in David Currie’s *Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic *that his church used the “Roman Road” (quotes from the book of Romans) and someone (it may have been a Catholic) asked him why they hardly ever quoted from the Gospels.

 

[Robert902]

You asked me a question, then you answered it yourself! Here are some Catholic answers to your question:

catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

catholic.com/library/Baptismal_Grace.asp

The biblical definition of salvation is 100% consistent with the teaching of the Catholic church, and vice versa. If it appears otherwise, then certain verses are being taken out of context or are being discarded. When the teaching of salvation is taken as a whole, there are no discrepancies.

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

---

1 Thess 5:21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”

---

 

[dcdurel]

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

Jesus did tell Nicodemus that we must be born of water and the Spirit.
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
The apostles taught their successors, the bishops of the Catholic Church, that this refers to baptism.
Protestants, who never knew an apostle, have come up with hundreds of different interpretations.
Since Jesus said to listen to His Church, I will put my faith in Jesus and accept what His apostles taught. Thus Jesus was speaking of baptism.

The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized. Neither was Moses and the old testament saints. .
Since Jesus had not yet died and rose for our salvation, neither could go to heaven yet. Paradise was an old term for limbo. Jesus did not ascend to heaven until 40 days later.
But Jesus did go down to limbo, hell or the lower regions, and by His glorified presence He turned it into paradise.
He did not turn earth to paradise by His glorified presence, because there is still sin on earth.
The Catholic encyclopedia says,
In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matthew 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matthew 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Dives it is called “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) and in Christ’s words to the penitent thief on Calvary the name paradise is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20). _

Thus, when Jesus says to the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise, he was not refering to heaven. Jesus did not go to heaven til 40 days later.
John 20:16-18
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Thus, Jesus himself said He had not ascended to His Father. Thus, paradise cannot refer to heaven, but limbo.

 

[Truthstalker]

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

---

1 Thess 5:21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”

---

Actually, no.

The sacramental system is the normal method of salvation, but the Catholic Church absolutely refuses to insist that God is bound to it. Nor will it state that it knows that any particular person went to hell.

 

[Bishopite]

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

---

1 Thess 5:21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”

---

Using an argument of silence isn’t proof since Jesus said in John 3:5 that “you must be born of water and the spirit” Catholicism doesn’t just take the Bible and proof text it, but sees it as a cohesive whole. And I’m not sure why you’ve done what so many have done on this thread, that is quote Eph 2:8-9 and ignore verse 10?
“10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

An answer from omission is insufficient. Jesus did not say anything about baptism to the woman at the well either. does that mean He did not expect her to be baptized? No. If he did not want people baptized, why did He tell his Apostles to baptize them? Why did Peter tell them on Pentecost:

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts 2:37-39

You don’t know that the thief had not been previously baptized, as I pointed out in another post. Furthermore, he was undergoing the baptism of blood at the time He made his profession of faith. AND furthermore, God is not bound my the sacraments. He gave us the sacraments so that we can fulfill “all things” in obedince to Him. However, He can save whoever He wants, however He wants. There seems to be a discrepancy for you because you are looking at the scripture with a prejudice and myopically.

Of course we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest we boast. Are you saying that this cancels our Jesus directions to become baptized? I guess I am lost on why the two need to be separated. Peter preached the gospel, people believed. they asked what to do to be saved, Peter told them to repent, be baptized, and recieve the Holy Spirit.

 

[dessert]

The Catholic church states that baptism is necessary for salvation. But;
Jesus never said anything about baptism to Nicodemus, and the thief on the cross wasn’t baptised.
Pretty difficult to take this out of context.
Seems to be a discrepancy here. Maybe you can, but I just can’t overlook this!
“We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man boast.”

God Bless,
Robert

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1 Thess 5:21 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”

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I have to agree with Gun because Nicodemus was probably baptised because he was a law type person and if you read it closely he came to Jesus at night on the sneak, he maybe was not wanting to be seen or heard speaking with Jesus as he would be in trouble. He asked Jesus further what had to be done and I expect Jesus was probably knew of him and Jesus more than likely knew of the thief too after all thousands were at his gatherings and maybe he even robbed Jesus or knew Judas? I know this is all speculation but come on Jesus was walking aroung for three years and there weren’t no gazette or tabloid so evryone talked. it doesn’t take much to put it all together we don’t need a Doctor Sloan but then Luke was a doctor and he had to have been very smart and deductive. Dessert

 

[dessert]

Jesus did tell Nicodemus that we must be born of water and the Spirit.
"
Protestants, who never knew an apostle, have come up with hundreds of different interpretatio
The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized. Neither was Moses and the old testament saints. .
Since Jesus had not yet . Jesus did not ascend to heaven until 40 days later.
But Jesus did go down to limbo, hell or the lower regions, and by His glorified presence He turned it into paradise.
He did not turn earth to paradise by His glorified presence, because there is still sin on earth.
The Catholic encyclopedia says,
In the New Testament, Christ refers by various names and figures to the place or state which Catholic tradition has agreed to call the limbus patrum. In Matthew 8:11, it is spoken of under the figure of a banquet “with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven” (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), and in Matthew 25:10 under the figure of a marriage feast to which the prudent virgins are admitted, while in the parable of Lazarus and Christ’s words to the penitent thief on %between% is used (Luke 23:43). St. Paul teaches (Ephesians 4:9) that before ascending into Heaven Christ “also descended first into the lower parts of the earth,” and St. Peter still more explicitly teaches that “being put to death indeed, in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,” Christ went and “preached to those souls that were in prison, which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noah” (1 Peter 3:18-20). _

Thus, when Jesus says to the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise, he was not refering to heaven. Jesus did not go to heaven til 40 days later.
John 20:16-18
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Thus, Jesus himself said He had not ascended to His Father. Thus, paradise cannot refer to heaven, but limbo.

In the OT the people were “baptized” by their obedience to the “law” they through ashes on themselves, this is a “form” of baptism, maybe they didn’t call it that.

John did the baptism of water and Jesus was so baptised I believe in that, what I did read though if I am not mistaken is Jesus did not baptize anyone Himslef with water but told His disciples to.

I do not see Jesus refuting baptism of water but I see Him referring to the importance to baptism of the Spirit and don’t you think Jesus would have told them now when I am gone be sure not to baptize anyone anymore. Dessert