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dessert
Guest
You know, I wondered about that when I was in a church like that.
Sounds like I have a new book to order.
Born Again was a catchy phrase wasn’t it? Dessert
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Sounds like I have a new book to order.
Born Again was a catchy phrase wasn’t it? Dessert
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dessert
Guest
How do we know that when Jesus said to the thief today you will be in paradise can’t mean that it could be that day? He created the earth in 6 days?
Maybe time stands still after we die?
Maybe Jesus was referring to it being finished that day as HIs hour drew near and it was a guarntee for the thief?
I think God doesn’t see time as we see it, as I have seen some miracles in the sense of time.
Maybe the thief wasn’t going to die that day but telling the thief that the promise is there. IMHO Dessert
Maybe time stands still after we die?
Maybe Jesus was referring to it being finished that day as HIs hour drew near and it was a guarntee for the thief?
I think God doesn’t see time as we see it, as I have seen some miracles in the sense of time.
Maybe the thief wasn’t going to die that day but telling the thief that the promise is there. IMHO Dessert
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RNRobert
Guest
It definitely is a good book.
Another good read with ‘born again’ in the title is Protestant Fundamentalism and the Born Again Catholic, by Father Robert J Fox. In it he gives Protestant objections to various Catholic doctrines (quoting from Jimmy Swaggart’s *Evangelist *magazine and gives the Catholic explanation of it. It’s a good companion piece with Karl Keating’s *Catholicism and Fundamentalism. *However it came out in 1990, so I don’t know if it’s still in print.
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dessert
Guest
I ordered the first not sure about the Father Fox, if it is the one I am thinking not sure. Thnaks Dessert
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Robert902
Guest
What happened on the cross between Jesus and the thief illustrates the free gift of salvation. The same is as true today as it was the day that Jesus was crucified. The only difference between this thief and the other, was that he believed in Jesus Christ. This man had faith to believe that the lord Jesus Christ was coming into a kingdom, and it would come after His death. He went into the presence of God because of His faith in Christ.
“Born of water” refers only to our physical water birth. Jesus was contrasting this with our spiritual birth. If Jesus had meant baptism, He would have said baptism.
John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.” Notice the word give, as in gift.
1 Cor 1:17 “for Christ did not send me to baptise, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” If baptism was required for salvation that statement would have made no sense at all.
Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” So God has predestined me, He has called me, justified me and also glorified me. This was all done for me before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4-5 Even before I elected to get baptised.
Romans 8:33 “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.” So when I hear that baptism is necessary to be justified, I say that It was God who did the justification, and no one can bring a charge against me, like not being baptised.
John 6:47 “Most assuredly I say to you he who believes in me and is baptised has eternal life.” If baptism was necessary for salvation, Jesus would have said something like this, but he didn’t.
“We are saved by baptism and grace throught faith, not of works, lest any man boast”. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is [nothing] you or I can do to earn salvation, and no one can take it away from you. It is a gift from God.
God Bless,
Robert
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is true.”
“Born of water” refers only to our physical water birth. Jesus was contrasting this with our spiritual birth. If Jesus had meant baptism, He would have said baptism.
John 10:28 “and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.” Notice the word give, as in gift.
1 Cor 1:17 “for Christ did not send me to baptise, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” If baptism was required for salvation that statement would have made no sense at all.
Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” So God has predestined me, He has called me, justified me and also glorified me. This was all done for me before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4-5 Even before I elected to get baptised.
Romans 8:33 “Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.” So when I hear that baptism is necessary to be justified, I say that It was God who did the justification, and no one can bring a charge against me, like not being baptised.
John 6:47 “Most assuredly I say to you he who believes in me and is baptised has eternal life.” If baptism was necessary for salvation, Jesus would have said something like this, but he didn’t.
“We are saved by baptism and grace throught faith, not of works, lest any man boast”. This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is [nothing] you or I can do to earn salvation, and no one can take it away from you. It is a gift from God.
God Bless,
Robert
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is true.”
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Zooey
Guest
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RNRobert
Guest
The thief experienced what the Catholic Church calls the “baptism of desire.” Since he was dying on the cross he as unable to be baptised. However, baptism is the normal way to enter into the Christian life. Peter told his listeners on the day of Pentecost to “repent and be baptized… and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” Acts 2:38.
I disagree. I don’t see how Jesus could be talking about amniotic fluid, not when the Scriptures talk about baptism as the entrance into the Christian life.
Yes, unless we obey, we will not have eternal life (John 3:36).
Paul was talking to the Corinthians, who had split into factions and were identifying themselves by who had baptised them.
If baptism is unnecessary, then why does Scripture tell us that “baptism saves you now” (1 Peter 3:21)?
Yes, it is a gift from God, but it is conditional upon our obedience (John 3:36). We are always free to reject it, as Jesus says only those who endure to the end will be saved.
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guanophore
Guest
Does that mean you think the remainder of the NT teachings on baptism are not the teaching of Jesus?
On the contrary, if everyone were not being baptized, it would not make any sense! Look at the verses immediately preceeding those you are taking out of context:
1 Cor 1:11-17
11 For it has been reported to me by Chlo’e’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga’ius; 15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.) "
People were quarreling. About what? who belonged to whom! Why would he ask them if they have been baptized into Paul, if they had not all been baptized? Paul’s gift was preaching. He did not want to become distracted performing baptisms, so he encouraged others to attend to this sacrament, so that he could focus on what he was called to do.
Who is “charging” you? Jesus has directed that we should be baptized, and go preach and baptize others. If you have to answer to anyone, it will be Him.
Indeed, he DID say something like this:
John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. "
Obedience is part of this kind of faith. A belief that does not obey is not a saving kind of faith.
It is not a very good formulation, but it is close. Baptism imparts grace, and is salvific. Baptism is approached with saving faith and obedience. The free gift of salvation cannot be earned by works of the flesh, but only imparted through obedient faith. However, if you wish to believe another gospel, that is also your perogative.
At least we can agree about something! However, I would add that a person can throw it away, because God does not take a way a person’s free will just because they have been sanctified by grace.
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guanophore
Guest
Jesus corrected this erroneous thinking, first expressed by Nicodemus:
John 3:1-8
3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’ "
He made it plain he was not talking about physical (womb) birth. It is a spiritual birth that takes place at baptism.
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Milliardo
Guest
It is also interesting to note, as if to drive a point, that after this episode with Nicodemus, Jesus and His followers went about baptizing (cf. John 3:22).
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JasonBlinklin
Guest
I hear another good site for stuff like this is
TheTruthAtLarge.com
TheTruthAtLarge.com
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Robert902
Guest
Ok…I disagree, but just to get past the Catholic doctrine of baptism (as necessay for salvation) and move forward, what do I need to do to be saved? I know Jesus told Nicodemus that he needed to be born again. And I also know that I am saved by grace throught faith, not of works, lest any man boast. Please tell me what else I need to do to enter the kingdom of God?
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guanophore
Guest
If you have believed, and are baptized, then you have already entered.
Acts 2:37-38
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”
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Linkowski
Guest
In 1 Peter 3:21 - we look at the full verse…
1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but* the answer*** of a good conscience toward God**,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
“not the removal of the filth of the flesh” - To be sure he is not misunderstood, Peter clearly says he is not speaking of water baptism. In Noah’s flood, they were kept out of the water while those who went into the water were destroyed. Being in the ark and thus saved from God’s judgment on the world prefigures being in Christ and thus saved from eternal damnation.
The word for “answer” has the idea of a pledge, agreeing to certain conditions of a covenant (the New Covenant) with God. What saves a person plagued by sin and a guilty conscience is not some external rite, but the agreement with God to get in the ark of safety, the Lord Jesus, by faith in His death and resurrection.
One thing that that Catholic Teaching on baptism says is that it is the new testament version of circumcision…in light of this…
Romans 4:9-11 KJV 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
When a person hears the gospel and God grants them the gifts of repentance and faith, that is when they are saved.
Acts 10:43-44 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word…
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Galatians 3:2 KJV 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
John 7:39 KJV 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Born again by the Word…
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
The Holy Spirit is the one who used the writers of the Bible…
2 Peter 1:21 KJV 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
And when the gospel is heard by the elect, the are Baptized in the Spirit and born again…then they are baptized.
Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (gurantee or down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It is all by God;s grace.
1 Peter 3:20-22 KJV 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but* the answer*** of a good conscience toward God**,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
“not the removal of the filth of the flesh” - To be sure he is not misunderstood, Peter clearly says he is not speaking of water baptism. In Noah’s flood, they were kept out of the water while those who went into the water were destroyed. Being in the ark and thus saved from God’s judgment on the world prefigures being in Christ and thus saved from eternal damnation.
The word for “answer” has the idea of a pledge, agreeing to certain conditions of a covenant (the New Covenant) with God. What saves a person plagued by sin and a guilty conscience is not some external rite, but the agreement with God to get in the ark of safety, the Lord Jesus, by faith in His death and resurrection.
One thing that that Catholic Teaching on baptism says is that it is the new testament version of circumcision…in light of this…
Romans 4:9-11 KJV 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
When a person hears the gospel and God grants them the gifts of repentance and faith, that is when they are saved.
Acts 10:43-44 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word…
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Galatians 3:2 KJV 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
John 7:39 KJV 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Born again by the Word…
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
The Holy Spirit is the one who used the writers of the Bible…
2 Peter 1:21 KJV 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
And when the gospel is heard by the elect, the are Baptized in the Spirit and born again…then they are baptized.
Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest (gurantee or down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It is all by God;s grace.
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guanophore
Guest
Ok, Link. I will agree to disagree with you on this point. It seems to me clear that Peter is talking about being saved through water, and that he goes out of his way to make the point that the water bath is not for the removal of soil, but for a spiritual cleansing. I accept that you do not see it that way.
[/quote]
Clearly, this is evident in the scriptures. But what did Peter do for those who heard the word of God, and were saved? What did he direct should be done on Pentecost? What did he direct be done at the home of Cornelius? Why did Jesus command this in the great commission?
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Why?
There is no disagreement here. Catholics believe that God’s grace is imparted at Baptism.
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lak611
Guest
It is more clear that Baptism does save us when looking at those verses in the CEV.
1Pe 3:20 They had disobeyed God while Noah was building the boat, but God had been patient with them. Eight people went into that boat and were brought safely through the flood.
1Pe 3:21 Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.
1Pe 3:22 Christ is now in heaven, where he sits at the right side of God. All angels, authorities, and powers are under his control.
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Robert902
Guest
So, that’s it…repent, be baptized, and I’m in?
God Bless,
Robert
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Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
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Acts 2:37-38
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”
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Robert902
Guest
If justification includes santification wouldn’t this still be something God does for us?
Romans 8:30 “moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called these He also justified and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
Seems clear to me according to Romans 8:30 that God has accepted the responsibility for our justification, which according to you includes our santification.
God Bless,
Robert
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Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is true.”
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Milliardo
Guest
I think one forgets to note here that baptism is where one is formally adopted as a child of God and where one formally as well leave the old life for the new in Christ. So, in essence then, that’s actually it. In a more simpler term then, baptism is where we formally accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Once one realizes it that way, I don’t see where one would object to baptism.
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Robert902
Guest
Does it need to be a Catholic who baptizes me, or can I baptize myself? And should I be submersed in the water?
God Bless,
Robert
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Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
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