"Works" Salvation?

[Bishopite]

[Pax;1993391]
Cooperation with God’s grace cannot be accomplished by us on our own. Our cooperation results from being made a new creation and by specific graces granted to us by God. Any denial of these truths effectively deny the power of God’s grace. Moreover, such denials logically make faith/believing a form of works righteousness because believing is an action tthat we do.

So cooperation with God’s grace isn’t of our own volition or our own free will?
You obviously believe in irisistable grace, yet Scripture doesn’t teach monergisim, but synergism.
If so why would Jesus say in Mark 8:34 to those standing around Him “Take up your cross and follow Me”
The context doesn’t say so. Jesus summoned “the crowd” and the apostles.

Mark 8:34 "He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me”

Is “the crowd” only the elect?

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
Let’s see now:

Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.
Amen !

God’s will be done.= Ten Commandments from the old law and directives in the new covenant.

On earth as it is in heaven.= Guidance from the Holy Spirit.

Give us this day our daily bread.= Spiritual food.

Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those.= Forgive our sins against others.

Temptation= We pray don’t let satan put us to the test.

Deliver us from evil.= Redeem us Lord. It’s an on goiing event reminds me of Mass on Sunday.

This prayer was taught by Jesus to the apostles.

We pray this everday = Future Salvation.

We better use those graces and get to work on our salvation.

I ask would this prayer be needed if we did’nt have to work on our own salvation ?

Just my two cents worth.
Peace, OneNow1

 

[Bishopite]

Yes, Link; God does it all.

With respect to religion, there are only two:

1. 
   *]The religion of Divine Accomplishment—God has done it all.
   
   1. 
      *]OR
      *]The religion of Human Achievement—God has done some;I must do the rest.

1. 1. 
      False premis on number 2. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was to wipe away all sin, however, it is WE who don’t apply that perfect sacrifice to our lives because we fail to cooperate
      with His grace. Col 1:24 “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,”
      
      So what’s “lacking in Chirst’s afflictions?” What is lacking is our cooperation in uniting ourselves to His suffering. It is WE who are lacking. God does NOT do some. God does it all but we have to “do” our part also.

 

[dcdurel]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God.

Nonsense, the Church never said we “earn” our salvation.
But after we have received the beginning of salvation in baptism, we do have to obey God to be rewarded with salvation. Jesus earned salvation for us, but after we have received initial salvation as a gift, at baptism, He gives final salvation to us as a reward. This is very clear in the bible where it speaks of final salvation as a reward over and over. If we refuse to obey, if we commit mortal sin and don’t repent, then we are refusing the reward of heaven and we will end up in hell.
Thus, after baptism we MUST obey God to be further justified. If we obey God out of faith, then we are further justified. Obeying God out of faith is called “works” by James.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Protestants contradict the Holy Word of God and say that the bible is wrong on this point.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

ST. Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses. The law of Moses could not justify, because Jesus had not suffered and died for our salvation, thus all it did was give knowledge of sin. All this is in the Catechism.

But, after Jesus merited the grace of salvation by His death and resurrection and after we have received the initial grace of this justification through baptism, then obedience to HIS teachings will give an increase in justification. That is what James is speaking about.

St. Paul also condemns the idea that Christians must also follow the ceremonial laws of the Mosaic law, such as circumcision, sabbath observance etc, known as the “works of the law”.
Some Jewish Christians were teaching that these laws were still necessary for Christians. They knew good and well that Jesus never taught that Christians had to follow these laws. Thus, Christians who followed these laws was NOT doing so out of faith in Jesus. Christians who followed them were NOT obeying God. That is why following the ceremonial rituals of the law of Moses, known as “works of the law” could not justify even Christians.
Christians by OBEYING the teachings of Jesus, out of faith in Jesus can further justify . Those are the “works” James writes about.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Again, the bible does not lie. It clearly agrees with the Gospel the Church learned from the apostles, who learned from Jesus. As Christians our works, done through obedience to Jesus, do justify us, because Jesus gives more of the grace of salvation to those who obey Him out of faith.
If we say that this grace of salvation does not justify us, then we are denying the power of God’s grace.

 

[apophasis]

Can we agree on what is the most important work relevant to salvation?

John 6:27-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Absolutely! And this is the message that Christ commissioned His Apostles to take to the world.

I don’ t think there is a disagreement between us on this point. The Catholic church teaches that salvation comes by grace, through faith, upon the merits of the crucifixion.

We agree up to the point where you add works. Now Pax argues that these are the works of God in/through the believer and therefore are meritorious in respect to salvation. And every RC on this thread argues that apart from these divinely enabled, meritorious works one cannot be saved (future tense).

Therefore RC’ism moves from the work of God strictly in the cross of Christ as the basis for a believer’s salvation to the works of God through the believer in this life as its (salvation’s) ultimate, divine criterion.

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith – which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith – which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

Tragically? Christ is the object of salvation faith in the Catholic Church. It is Christ who instituted the Sacraments. Any Catholic can tell you that.

 

[dcdurel]

Therefore RC’ism moves from the work of God strictly in the cross of Christ as the basis for a believer’s salvation to the works of God through the believer in this life as its (salvation’s) ultimate, divine criterion.

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith – which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

Nonsense.
Only Jesus can earn salvation. But He clearly gives conditions for us to receive the grace of salvation He has earned.
The first condition is faith, and by faith, we mean believing EVERYTHING He taught. Thus, through faith, we first receive the grace of salvation in baptism.
After faith, the next condition** is obedience to His teachings.** That is why the bible says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that** by works a man is justified**, and not by faith only.

The bible is not wrong. The bible does not lie. We are justified by works, done through obedience to Jesus because when we do these works, Jesus gives us more of the grace of salvation that He alone earned.
If you don’t understand the difference between works of the law that St. Paul writes about and the works of obedience that James writes about, then please see my above note.

This is Catholic Church dogma, that has come from the apostles. It is not the result of guesswork on bible verses, as the way other groups tried to learn the gospel.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith – which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

Could you share with us what you believe is the “object of salvation faith” for Catholics if Christ is not?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Church_Militant]

What do you mean by all of that?

Listen to the MP3.

CM is stating there are practices amongst Protestants that are un-biblical. The same accusation that you claim the Catholic Church teaches (Church Militant correct if I’m misunderstand you))

Protestant style of worship is not practiced by Early Christians nor is it Apostolic. Most Protestant even ignore historical aspect of Christian historical, which is Catholic in doctrine, practice and belief.

That is part of it, but it is also a study in why the preaching of n-C “eternal security” is unscriptural. It’s not taught by the Bible. It is interpreted and preached by men.

Oh…Tell CM, that his presentation is littered with strawmen

.Tell him yourself, or better yet go to the BCS site and tell John Martignoni. Having been n-C for a long time…I don’t see any strawmen.

Wanna prove it. Hit quote on that post and make a new thread out of it and refute it if you can. I don’t think you can or will even try.

Sorry to take away the n-C security blanket…but that’s all it really is.

 

[Zooey]

Assurance of salvation is never based on subjective doubts but the objective, revealed Word of God - centered on the cross of Christ. What I’ve often found is when a Prostestant believer’s erroneous thinking in regards to grace and the cross of Christ is corrected he subsequently settles in to an assured peace concerning his salvation. A Catholic, on the other hand, often continues to repudiate that grace desiring rather to cling to “works of righteousness”:Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"

Which is where antinomianism comes to play. BTDT, its a crock…All it ever did for me, was to convince me that I could do anything without it affecting me spiritually. (Which is at least partly why, as I mentioned in another thread, that I ended up a couple years ago with 40 pages (single space, both sides of the sheet) of sins that I had been committing because I was intoxicated by the idea of eternal security.
:crying:Sadly, there are, without doubt,:crying: many souls in hell because of this heretical teaching!!

Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. .

Oh, bologna, salami, & miscellaneous other luch meats. That’s a total crock.
:tsktsk: You have no idea whatsoever of what Catholics really believe. You’re just spouting:banghead: lies from the A-C Handbook. This is ridiculous. You say the same things over & over & over & over…
You remind me of me at about 9 or so. There was this cartoon character that had a “friend” called Sniffles, that was like the size of a pin or something. She would shut her eyes, & say: “Oof pouf words of magic piffles, make me just as small as Sniffles”, & she would shrink. I can’t tell you how many times I tried to shrink before I gave up & realized that it didn’t work.
You gotta stop trying to find the magic words, Link. The ones you keep throwing out here, are a pile of carp.

 

[Church_Militant]

Absolutely! And this is the message that Christ commissioned His Apostles to take to the world.We agree up to the point where you add works. Now Pax argues that these are the works of God in/through the believer and therefore are meritorious

in respect to salvation. And every RC on this thread argues that apart from these divinely enabled, meritorious works one cannot be saved (future tense).

Therefore RC’ism moves from the work of God strictly in the cross of Christ as the basis for a believer’s salvation to the works of God through the believer in this life as its (salvation’s) ultimate, divine criterion. This is nothing more that post reformation error on your part. The Catholic doctrine is faithful to the complete context of the New Testament as well as the teachings of the Christian faith for all of it’s 2,000 year history. The gravely misleading errors of Sola Scriptura (which is not directly related to this topic, though fundamental to the overall errors of modern n-C belief.) and Sola Fide, (which is indeed directly related to this topic) are new winds of man made doctrine that began to blow through Christianity some 500 years ago.

Tragically, according to RC belief, Christ is no longer the object of salvation faith –

Tragic rhetorical hooey. You cannot cite any authoritative Catholic teaching to support your allegation without cherry-picking quotes out of context and then interpreting them to suit your own theological position. Any honest and objective reader of Catholic teaching (of which I have seen very few here on this forum) will come away with a balanced understanding of what the Church actually teaches concerning salvation. Anyone who has read the New Testament (and the Bible as a whole) without the colored lenses of their n-C/a-C errors will conclude that the New Testament teaches Catholicism.

which we agreed above was the primary work of God and the core of the gospel message.

Catholics do not disagree with the Gospel. We disagree with your gospel…

 

[Church_Militant]

To add to this - you cannot orchestrate the Christian life for another. It must be orchestrated by God.

Oh, so then you cannot be inspired to a closer walk with Our lord by someone else’s expressions of devotion? And so you would also reject that those same expressions of devotion cannot be used by God for that very purpose? Yet you sing hymns in your services do you not. What are hymns if not prayers set to music. Craig…this just won’t wash…

Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. You take the very heart out of Christianity and the person just becomes an instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument. That is exactly what I was.

Your problem Craig.

I love the prayers that I have found within the faith.
The Anima Christi, The St. Michael Prayer, The Divine Mercy Chaplet, the Rosary, all of which again and again prove to me the truth of Romans 8:26: Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words.
27: And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

All the things that you have named are used of God to lift my heart and mind to God and inspire me to desire Him all the more. You blame the church for your own lack of conversion, when in fact you rejected the very sacramental efforts God inspired to draw you to Him.

What does the New Testament say Craig? "5: If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him.
6: But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
7: For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man,
8: unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord. " (James 1) (IMO this is the main reason that some Catholics fall prey to n-C evangelism and proselytizing.)

You may have been dead…but I and many of my Catholic brothers and sisters here are more alive than we can express…because of the very inspiring instruments of God that you have rejected.

Whose fault is that?

 

[heisenburg]

Apop…

Alright… teach me. Ill listen… To me OSAS is nothing more than a Man Made tradition that developed 1500 years after the death of Christ and no record of its teaching can be found prior to Calvin. Every Christian believed that if you were not obedient you would loose the gift God gave you. But, I do not want to be accused of not searching for Truth as this is something all of us are commanded to do.

So, Let me ask you a question…

If I have what you call a saving faith, but I never do anything in the bible… IE feed the poor, Love thy neighbor, etc…

If I have a saving faith, will God allow me into heaven?

Please, just Yes or No.

No explanation yet… just yes or no

In Christ

 

[guanophore]

Yes, Link; God does it all.

With respect to religion, there are only two:

1. *]The religion of Divine Accomplishment—God has done it all.
   
   OR
   
   *]The religion of Human Achievement—God has done some;
   I must do the rest.

1. 
   Well, I know better than this after only one theology course. However, I do not want to derail the thread, recently having had a real good one closed for that reason. I am curious, if you believe these things, why are you here in this forum?

 

[Truthstalker]

To me, this argument goes round and round without settlement too many times. The problem is that it is based on assumptions concerning what man is and what God expects out of man. IF man is so fallen that he cannot possibly do any good, any time, for any reason, absolutely cannot cooperate, even redeemed, with God, being the “pile of dung” that Protestants are so fond of calling ourselves (and then we grouse about Catholics being uncharitable!), it is one thing. Free ride. God gives us a free pass. We don’t have to do nothing. No how. No way.

But IF man is fallen in a way that God can and will rebuild him - if he still bears the image of God, and is actually capable of good, God may tell him to hoof it on his own.

Both these extremes are errors. Man is not so totally shattered that in essence he no longer bears the image of God. The sinful nature has been added on - it is not essential to his identity but rather an accretion.

God gives us grace, yes. Faith is a gift, yes. If we will to follow God, that, too is a gift. Monergism is correct, but not the full picture: God calls us also to learn to cooperate, as sons, not as slaves. He is a God of freedom, not one returning us to slavery. There is more freedom in His will than there is bondage in slavery.

In this there is sanity. There is no sanity in antinomialism, in a free ticket that I need not respond to. If God did it all, then He would not have bothered to have Paul, for eample, tell us what to do in his letters, because obedience would be automatic. Jesus told us to abide in Him.

God desires all to be saved. Not all come to repentence. If God did everything, then all would be saved. Faith itself is a gift. Does he give it to everyone? Seemingly only to some - the elect. Do some, believing, fall away? We have all seen this happen. Surely there is some sort of cooperation involved.

 

[guanophore]

We are justified by the death of Jesus on the cross. That being said, it also teaches that a person that practices this type of faith will demonstrate that faith through one’s actions. If one fails to demonstrate it, then one is no longer connected to that saving grace. As it says in John, “my brothers, let us love in word or in deed …because if one does not love his brother, how can he say he belongs to Christ”?
apophasis;1993404:

.You mean he’s no longer connected to that “justification?” So then, according to RC’ism God does not actually justify based on "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

," but one’s ability to demonstate his faith through good works.

I suppose you could say it that way, that one has abandoned the justification that God provided. However, in no case is redemption dependent upon “one’s own ability”. Again, I do not say this for you, because I know you have rejected this teaching persistently, but for others here that may read this who have fallen into this error.Catholics understand that it is incumbent upon those called and chosen to participate in that justification. This requires that we apply our faith (believe) and obey the WHOLE teachings of Christ which are found most fully in the Church that He founded

Phil 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

We do not believe in “once saved, always saved” but rather, that it is possible for a person, by the free will given to him by God to “commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” Heb 6:6

If you were to agree with this teaching, how might your life have to change?

 

[guanophore]

To add to this - you cannot orchestrate the Christian life for another. It must be orchestrated by God.

Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. You take the very heart out of Christianity and the person just becomes an instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument. That is exactly what I was.

I know what you mean exactly, Linkowski. I had the EXACT same experience. I had to go away into the Protestant realm for many years, before I learned enough to appreciate the depth of Catholic practice, tradition, and liturgy. Why are you here in this forum now?

 

[kaycee]

To me, this argument goes round and round without settlement too many times. The problem is that it is based on assumptions concerning what man is and what God expects out of man. IF man is so fallen that he cannot possibly do any good, any time, for any reason, absolutely cannot cooperate, even redeemed, with God, being the “pile of dung” that Protestants are so fond of calling ourselves (and then we grouse about Catholics being uncharitable!), it is one thing. Free ride. God gives us a free pass. We don’t have to do nothing. No how. No way.

But IF man is fallen in a way that God can and will rebuild him - if he still bears the image of God, and is actually capable of good, God may tell him to hoof it on his own.

Both these extremes are errors. Man is not so totally shattered that in essence he no longer bears the image of God. The sinful nature has been added on - it is not essential to his identity but rather an accretion.

God gives us grace, yes. Faith is a gift, yes. If we will to follow God, that, too is a gift. Monergism is correct, but not the full picture: God calls us also to learn to cooperate, as sons, not as slaves. He is a God of freedom, not one returning us to slavery. There is more freedom in His will than there is bondage in slavery.

In this there is sanity. There is no sanity in antinomialism, in a free ticket that I need not respond to. If God did it all, then He would not have bothered to have Paul, for eample, tell us what to do in his letters, because obedience would be automatic. Jesus told us to abide in Him.

God desires all to be saved. Not all come to repentence. If God did everything, then all would be saved. Faith itself is a gift. Does he give it to everyone? Seemingly only to some - the elect. Do some, believing, fall away? We have all seen this happen. Surely there is some sort of cooperation involved.

What you are describing is more or less semi-pelagianism.

 

[valient_Lucy]

That’s a clever twist. But no matter how many spins you put on it, you’re right back to the same old false gospel of salvation based on works.

If by salvation by works, you mean, “I’m going to keep doing good deeds so that my good deeds outnumber my bad deeds and therefore God will have to give me eternal life,” that is not what the Catholic Church teaches, and that is a false gospel.

 

[apophasis]

Could you share with us what you believe is the “object of salvation faith” for Catholics if Christ is not?

Thanks in advance.

You’re welcome. But I did in my previous post:

Therefore RC’ism moves from the work of God strictly in the cross of Christ as the basis for a believer’s salvation to the works of God through the believer in this life as its (salvation’s) ultimate, divine criterion.

You move from Christ’s finished, redemptive work on the cross to your works during this life. I think dcdurel in post # 146 expressed it all quite well - you must merit in this life the salvation Christ “earned.” Your whole salvation hinges on these so-called divinely, enabled, meritorioius works.

Hence, Christ and His work on the cross moves to the background and your meritorious works to the foreground.