"Works" Salvation?

[guanophore]

To the confusion, the controversy, the mixed messages, and inconsistencies already mentioned add the inconsistency of losing justification/salvation through mortal sin; if one can lose his right-standing with God based upon his performance, how is that not works-based salvation?

Salvation is by work. Consider the following verse:

John 6:27-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Jesus teaches that faith is a work. One must constantly cooperate with God’s grace in order to continue in believing. If one stops cooperating with saving grace:

Heb 3:12

12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

They will fall away from God. How can someone who has lapses back into an evil unbelieving heart be saved?

Heb 6:3-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

If these acts are not the responsibility of the individual, whose are they? It is up to each believer to persevere in the faith, and to "work"on believing.

 

[sandusky]

Lazerlike42:

This is the sticking point indeed. There are many reasons Catholics disagree with the understanding you have presented. One is simply that if we believe justification is a one time, binary, either/or state, then James 2:24 becomes a real problem. None of the agruments that he is talking about being justified before men hold up, because among other things there were no men for him to be justified before. The arguments that he means works come from a saving faith don’t hold up, because among other things James says that Abraham’s works were “active along with” his faith. The idea that a sinner can be justified before God because of what he has done is contrary to all sorts of Scripture passages, and there isn’t really anyone that would even suggest this today other than a few pelagian remnants here and there. The only thing that makes sense of the passage is to look at justification as something that can be increased, an idea which also makes sense of a lot of passages in St. Paul.

I assume that the bolded/underlined has to do with Abraham? If not, I hope that I won’t be wasting my time.

There was no one there, that’s for certain; however, I am here, and I can “see” the event through the eyes of the inspired writer. Augustine recognized that God understood that with respect to events, there would come a time—and a people—when there would be “nothing for them to touch, but something read.” So I am an observer of Gen 22 because God saw fit to have it written down (cf 1 Cor 10:1ff with v6; Heb 11).

Furthermore, in v18, the beginning of the faith passage, James says, “you show me…I’ll show you…you see…you see.” Obviously the passage is concerned with visible evidence of faith, the main character in the passage says he has faith, but, James asks, where’s the evidence of it?

AFA Abe’s faith being active, that is James’ point; The previously justified Abe demonstrated a faith that was not a said faith, but an active, saving faith (v18) which fulfilled the scriptural record in which Abe was stated to have been justified (v23 cf Gen 15:6 also Rom 4:3, 20-22; Gal 3:6).

Lazerlike42:

This idea gains even more weight when viewed in light of much of St. Paul and Jesus’ teaching. Jesus spoke a lot about people being rewarded with eternal life. St. Paul teaches in Romans 2 that eternal life is a reward for " patience in well-doing." In fact, what makes this passage even more indicative of the Catholic interpretation of James 2:24 is that St. Paul is writing to people who are already believers. For them, because they are already in faith and saved by Grace, good works can, according to the Catholic understanding, be rewarded with eternal life. St. Paul teaches the same idea in Colossians, saying, " Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ" (3:23-24). Now ‘the inheritance’ is one of St. Paul’s more common ways of referring to eternal life, such as when he uses phrases like “inherite the kingdom of God.” He refers to the “inheritance” in referring to what we gain by faith in Christ in places such as Galatians 3:18, Ephesians 1:11-18, and Colossians 1:12.

I’m not sure what passages you are referring to with respect to Jesus saying people are rewarded with eternal life.

In Romans 2, Paul’s assertions are of general principle: if someone were able to do good persistently (ie., keep all of the law, see v 7), that one would gain eternal life. But as Paul expands his argument, he makes it very clear that no one, since the fall, can, in fact, keep the law persistently (see 3:9–18, 23). So his purpose here is not to show how people can be saved, but to set forth the standards of God’s evaluation apart from the gospel. These standards are the same for everyone—whether they be Jews or Gentiles; there’s no partiality.

If you “see” eternal life in the inheritance, it is a gift associated with justification; justification is a gift.

 

[guanophore]

“Merit” is a Catholic term, not a Biblical one. Rewards are given to the saved, but salvation is never portrayed as a “reward” in Scripture.And have you yet gone through the cities of Israel (vs. 23)? And you must continue to go through those cities of Israel UNTIL the Son of Man comes. Good luck on that kind of salvation.

apophasis, you goof. The first bible translation WAS Latin. And the Bible is a Catholic book! Of COURSE Latin is Biblical! You just never studied the Latin Bible.

 

[apophasis]

Apop…

Greetings to you in Christ…

If my words have not come out clear, I do apologize. I can sometimes botch what I am saying. Ultimately, all I am saying is we must be obedient. That includes do what he commands us, That includes loving our neighbor, that includes having faith in Christ.

I understand you loud and clear. You’re doing a good job communicating your view.

If you believe me or any other Catholic is ultimately driving at anything else, ask more questions.

OK.

But ultimately, All Catholics call for is our obedience to what Christ, Paul, John, Peter, etc, teach.

Follow his words.
If we fail…
Ask for forgiveness…
If we don’t, we will loose our salvation.

And is this not salvation by works how?

That we must be obedient to Christ, and if we don’t, he will refuse us. No one is assured salvation until their day of Judgment.

How does this correlate with what Jesus Himself said in Jn. 5:24?

If you are not assured salvation UNTIL your “day of Judgment” then, ultimately, on what basis is your salvation determined? And how is it you can lose something you never really had?

 

[NotWorthy]

apophasis, you goof. The first bible translation WAS Latin. And the Bible is a Catholic book! Of COURSE Latin is Biblical! You just never studied the Latin Bible.

While you’re working on your Christian charity, you may want to verify the facts, unless I am understanding you wrong.

Latin is a 4th century translation of the original Greek (mostly Greek!) original of the NT.

 

[apophasis]

If a person lacks the grace of salvation, and has never been justified by faith, would this not be clearly evident by their works?

No, not necessarily. There are many “good doers” in the world, even amongst the unjustified.

Even so, works do separate man from God, because if a person is not justified and not in a state of grace before God, then such a person will persist in evil deeds. Likewise, if a person is walking in grace, then such a person will reflect that state by their fruit/deeds.

“In a state of grace” is a RC phrase. “Under grace” however is Biblical. One is either “under grace” or he is not.

I guess I don’t understand why it is so important for you to separate the two, since Jesus does not, and why it is so important for you to maintain that Catholics should separate them.

Because if you don’t you corrupt the pure gospel message. Jesus certainly did separate faith from works in respect to salvation. Throughout the gospel accounts He points to Himself as the object of faith and the writers of the Epistles preach His cross, not works, as the power of salvation for all who believe.“But to the one who does not work but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH (not works) is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

 

[NotWorthy]

I did not say that you do these to be saved - although the CCC says the Sacraments are necessary for salvation…but, the fact that these things are introduced to the catechumen causes them to become spiritually lazy and dead. I have my own lent…own prayer…etc.

Also, show me the cermonies of the Sacraments in the Bible. Just like you cannot find the sinner’s prayer (although some will show it to you…this turns out to be a sacrament to some), you cannot find these Sacraments the way the Catholic Church presents them.

Link, I love how you automatically overlay your experiences on EVERY Catholic. I try not to lump all Protestants together. Please don’t expect all Catholics to get (or not get) the same thing out of our experiences. Remember, the woman who was hemorraging (sic) was cured by Jesus by reaching out to him, while numerous others passed blissfully by. This describes me at Mass in the past and present. Three years ago I was the guy asleep during the homily. Today, I’m the guy on the edge of his seat throughout the whole Mass. Has the Mass changed? The Priests’ homilies? No. But I have!

Where in the Bible are the Sacraments? Are you kidding me?

• Eucharist - Last Supper
• Baptism - Baptism of Christ
• Confirmation - Dove descending on Christ at Baptism and then also at Pentecost
• Holy Orders - Laying on of Hands (throught Acts and Paul’s Epistles
• Anointing of the Sick - James
• Sacrament of Reconciliation - John 20, Matthew 16
• Marriage - Genesis (and I’m sure there are more in NT. It’s late… I’m tired).

Are you sure you went to CCD classes?

 

[Church_Militant]

Once Saved, Always Saved? (MP3 Link)
Copyright 2000, John Martignoni

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourself to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
- Romans 6:15-16

I. The Protestant View
A. Protestant Beliefs.
~Accept Jesus Christ into your hearts
~The �sinner’s prayer�
~Only need to believe in Jesus (John 3:16)
~One way ticket to heaven; nothing can derail the train
~�Absolute assurance�
~Since works do not gain our salvation, works cannot contribute to our losing our salvation.
~We are �hid� with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3)
~�No condemnation� for those in Christ
(Romans 8:1-2)

B. One Protestant writes:
	�However, it is not merely from the Levitical laws that we were discharged, but also from the moral ones.  God only has one law.  Does that mean we can sin freely?  No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments.  However, it does mean that no sin will be held against us once we receive Christ, for upon receiving Christ we are discharged from the very law against which our sins would have been reckoned.�

II. Showing the Protestant Doctrine to be False, from Scripture
A. Absolute assurance� NO!
Catholics say:
~ Romans 8:1-2
does not say absolute assurance
~ Romans 6:15-16
says that sin leads to death

B. Discharges from the moral law...NO!
	Catholics say:
	~ Matthew 5:27-30
		Jesus does not discharge us from the moral law! There is consequence for sinning!
	~ Matthew 18:8-9

C. Others
	~ Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 18:23-35 & Matthew 6:14-15 (we must forgive others); Romans 		11:17-23; John 15:1-11; Galatians 5:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 5:19

III. Other Protestant Arguments
A. Sola Fide…NO!
~ Once saved, always saved stems from this doctrine. Since �sola fide� (faith alone) can be shown to be false, the basis for once saved, always saved crumbles.
B. Once saved, you cannot sin…NO!
~ Romans 7:15
�For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate.�
C. Once saved, sin no longer holds any consequences�NO!
~ Paul writes to believers but preaches about avoiding sin.
~ Romans 12:21 & 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 6:18 & 11:17-22 & 15:12; Ephesians 4:25-32 & 5:5; James 2:1 & 4:1-4; Matthew 5:31-48 & 6:1-7; Colossians 3:25; 1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2:1, 2 Peter 1:1 & 3:17

When the crowds saw it, they were afraid , and the glorified God, who had given such authority to men. - Matthew 9:8

IV. Other Problems if Protestant View is True
A. Must endure until the end
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1
B. Hope
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2
C. Paul didn’t have �absolute assurance�
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

IV. Other Problems if Protestant View is True
D. Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23
E. The �Book of Life�
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

IV. Once Saved, Always Saved…NO!
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66
~ 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[sandusky]

NorWorthy:

I think the crux of the matter is the Catholic belief that Salvation is a process, and your belief is that once someone is saved, they are always saved.

True.

NotWorthy:

However, fWhen you are pruned from the vine, the vine is pruned. You are cut off. This is when you turn away from God. But, you can be re-grafted onto the vine.

Are you talking John 15, or Romans 11? You seem to be mixing the two; pruning, both agriculturally, and soteriologically, is done to increase fruit; pruning does not involve completely “cutting off.”
NorWorthy:

Doesn’t Jesus state many times that we are judged by our works? Does Jesus say we are judged by our faith? Hence, our works must count for something. We know they don’t merit salvation - everyone agrees on that. But the Bible tells us that the person who does good works is storing up riches in heaven (paraphrasing).

Yes; those are the rewards; salvation is a gift; soteriologically, you cannot earn the gift (it is freely given); however, you can earn rewards, and store up treasure for yourself in heaven .

NotWorthy:

IMHO, If Paul teaches something that can be construed two different ways (that our works do help us, and that they don’t), but Jesus tells us to do good works many, many times, then I’m going with Jesus, thank you. Most of the Sermon on the Plain involved doing good things.

In that sermon in Matthew, v48, Jesus plainly states the manner in which one is to conduct himself with respects to works; James 2:10 tells the consequence of failing to meet Jesus’ requirements in even the smallest way.

I’m going with Jesus as well; but for different reasons, and in a significantly different way, than you.

 

[sandusky]

Once Saved, Always Saved? (MP3 Link)
Copyright 2000, John Martignoni

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you yield yourself to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
- Romans 6:15-16

I. The Protestant View
A. Protestant Beliefs.
~Accept Jesus Christ into your hearts
~The �sinner’s prayer�
~Only need to believe in Jesus (John 3:16)
~One way ticket to heaven; nothing can derail the train
~�Absolute assurance�
~Since works do not gain our salvation, works cannot contribute to our losing our salvation.
~We are �hid� with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3)
~�No condemnation� for those in Christ
(Romans 8:1-2)

B. One Protestant writes:
	�However, it is not merely from the Levitical laws that we were discharged, but also from the moral ones.  God only has one law.  Does that mean we can sin freely?  No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments.  However, it does mean that no sin will be held against us once we receive Christ, for upon receiving Christ we are discharged from the very law against which our sins would have been reckoned.�

II. Showing the Protestant Doctrine to be False, from Scripture
A. Absolute assurance� NO!
Catholics say:
~ Romans 8:1-2
does not say absolute assurance
~ Romans 6:15-16
says that sin leads to death

B. Discharges from the moral law...NO!
	Catholics say:
	~ Matthew 5:27-30
		Jesus does not discharge us from the moral law! There is consequence for sinning!
	~ Matthew 18:8-9

C. Others
	~ Matthew 13:40-42; Matthew 18:23-35 & Matthew 6:14-15 (we must forgive others); Romans 		11:17-23; John 15:1-11; Galatians 5:1; Hebrews 6:4-8; James 5:19

III. Other Protestant Arguments
A. Sola Fide…NO!
~ Once saved, always saved stems from this doctrine. Since �sola fide� (faith alone) can be shown to be false, the basis for once saved, always saved crumbles.
B. Once saved, you cannot sin…NO!
~ Romans 7:15
�For I do not do what I want, but I do the very things I hate.�
C. Once saved, sin no longer holds any consequences�NO!
~ Paul writes to believers but preaches about avoiding sin.
~ Romans 12:21 & 15:15; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 6:18 & 11:17-22 & 15:12; Ephesians 4:25-32 & 5:5; James 2:1 & 4:1-4; Matthew 5:31-48 & 6:1-7; Colossians 3:25; 1 Peter 1:1-2 & 2:1, 2 Peter 1:1 & 3:17

When the crowds saw it, they were afraid , and the glorified God, who had given such authority to men. - Matthew 9:8

IV. Other Problems if Protestant View is True
A. Must endure until the end
~ Matthew 10:22
~ Hebrews 10:35-36
~ Hebrews 12:1
B. Hope
~ Romans 8:24-25
~ Romans 15:13
~ Romans 5:2
C. Paul didn’t have �absolute assurance�
~ Philippians 3:10-13
~ 1 Corinthians 9:26-27

IV. Other Problems if Protestant View is True
D. Other verses that wouldn’t make sense if Protestant view is true
~ 2 Corinthians 13:5-6
~ 1 Thessalonians 5:23
~ Philippians 2:12
~ Hebrews 4:1,11
~ Colossians 1:21-23
E. The �Book of Life�
~ Revelation 20:15
~ Psalms 69:28
~ Revelation 3:1-5

IV. Once Saved, Always Saved…NO!
~ Hebrews 10:38
~ Ezekiel 33:12-19
~ Ezekiel 18:21-24
~ 1 Timothy 4:1
~ John 2:11 with John 6:16-22, 66
~ 2 Timothy 3:16

What do you mean by all of that?

 

[Mannyfit75]

CM is stating there are practices amongst Protestants that are un-biblical. The same accusation that you claim the Catholic Church teaches (Church Militant correct if I’m misunderstand you))

Protestant style of worship is not practiced by Early Christians nor is it Apostolic. Most Protestant even ignore historical aspect of Christian historical, which is Catholic in doctrine, practice and belief.

 

[guanophore]

While you’re working on your Christian charity, you may want to verify the facts, unless I am understanding you wrong.

Latin is a 4th century translation of the original Greek (mostly Greek!) original of the NT.

Is calling a goof uncharitable? I am sorry. Yes, the first translation of the bible was into the Latin. It was done by Catholics, and Latin was the “vulgar” or common language of the day. Merit is a latin word, and was translated as such in the fourth century by Jerome. By saying it was “CAtholic” and not 'biblical" it makes it sound as if it did’n’t come from the bible.

 

[apophasis]

Rom11:29 : The author was talking about the NATION of the Jews, who’s promises (due to His covenant) He will always honor.

Yes, Rom. 11:29 is specifically pertaining to the nation of Israel. And it is true God will fulfill the unconditional covenants (plural) He made with that nation. That’s what Paul is talking about in chapter eleven.

But “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” is a true statement pertaining to all gifts God gives. Whether to a nation or an individual. The fact that He will not even renege on His covenants with national Israel is assurance, as well, that He will not renege on His gifts to those individuals (both Jew and Gentile) who have trusted in His Son. And as I have pointed out salvation, justification and eternal life are GIFTS of God to all who believe in the sacrificial work of His Son on their behalf.

He will ALWAYS continue to OFFER His love, but if the OFFER is not taken, under what reasoning are the gifts to be delivered?

FAITH.

God can give you the gifts of Justification, Salvation, and Eternal Life.

Scripture doesn’t say He “can,” it emphatically states that He does upon belief in His Son.

Then he can give you the gift of Damnation, if he see’s fit.

That “gift” was already given to us by Adam (read Rom. 5:12-21).

It’s not up to you to tell God what He can and cannot do.

I agree. It is up to God to tell us what He HAS DONE. And He has!!!

I wish you luck in your “bargaining” with God, and forcing Him to do what YOU think is right…!

I cannot “force” God to do anything. Nor is my salvation based on how well I can bargain. It’s based on my faith in an historical FACT - the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for me (2 Cor. 5:21). Here is the mind of God:Rom. 8:31-32 “What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?”

 

[guanophore]

No, not necessarily.  There are many "good doers" in the world, even amongst the unjustified."*In a state of grace*" is a RC phrase.  "*Under grace*" however is Biblical.  One is either "*under grace*" or he is not.

Can we agree on what is the most important work relevant to salvation?

John 6:27-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Because if you don't you corrupt the pure gospel message.  Jesus certainly did separate faith from works in respect to salvation.  Throughout the gospel accounts He points to Himself as the object of faith and the writers of the Epistles preach His cross, not works, as the power of salvation for all who *believe*."But to the one who does not work but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH (not works) is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

I don’ t think there is a disagreement between us on this point. The Catholic church teaches that salvation comes by grace, through faith, upon the merits of the crucifixion.

 

[sandusky]

CM is stating there are practices amongst Protestants that are un-biblical. The same accusation that you claim the Catholic Church teaches (Church Militant correct if I’m misunderstand you))

Protestant style of worship is not practiced by Early Christians nor is it Apostolic. Most Protestant even ignore historical aspect of Christian historical, which is Catholic in doctrine, practice and belief.

Oh…Tell CM, that his presentation is littered with strawmen.

 

[Bishopite]

[apophasis;1991273]No. “Anti-nomianism” is a life of lawlessness, not salvation according to law obedience (works). Every saved believer is exhorted to “walk according to his calling” (Eph. 4:1; cf Rom. 12:1-2).

No, antinomiamism is saying that one does not have to obey the moral law [of Christ] and IS still justified. This is against Scripture. 1 Cor 6:9-10 (KJV) “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Paul talks about the “unrighteous [who] will not inherit the kingdom of God” and is speaking of are those who don’t obey the moral law! They are the same types of people in Mt 25:41-46 who didn’t obey the moral law of Christ.

Also…Merriam-Webster defines anitnomianism as…

**

Main Entry:

an·ti·no·mi·an
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "an-ti-'nO-me-&n
Etymology: Medieval Latin *antinomus, *from Latin *anti- *+ Greek *nomos *law
1 : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation
2 : one who rejects a socially established morality
- antinomian adjective
- an·ti·no·mi·an·ism/-me-&-"ni-z&m/ noun
**

Therefore since you are saying we don’t have to obey the moral law , by definition you are advocating antinomianism.

But one is not saved BY his walk or his calling, but BY grace through faith in the sacrificial work of Christ alone ("..but we preach Christ crucified").Yes, created “in Christ Jesus.” That’s a whole new identity and is as eternal as Christ Himself.They are when it comes to salvation. NONE can merit it.However, they’re not the same in respect to believer’s and rewards (1Cor. 3:10-15).

Don’t stop at verse 9 read the whole passage in context and go on to verse 10…“created in Christ for good works.”
Why can’t you acknowledge verse 10 which says “good works.” We were created by God for good works but we CAN’T do good works on our own. With God’s grace we can do them. If we do them with His grace as Mt 25:34-40 says, then we will be “saved.”

And we will be judged by our good works Romans 2:5-11(KJV) “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.”

Notice according to his “deeds” and "eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good"

If we do works apart from God’s grace then we are those in Mt 25:41-46.

I’ll pose this question again. Do you deny in Mt 25:34-40 the just, the righteous don’t “do” anything in cooperation with following Jesus?

Also, “merit” means “reward” not strict earning in Catholic theology; only Christ can “merit” anything in the strict sense. And you don’t seem understand nor want to believe this for some reason.

 

[Pax]

I’ve read it - I got it. I have been saved by grace through faith.

The works performed in verse 10 are by those who are already “created in Christ Jesus” - who are “God’s workmanship.” It is the already “saved by grace through faith” in Christ’s work on their behalf that are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” never BY those good works.

I get it…it’s all right there. Salvation is never based on our works of any kind. Only His.

You are at least partially correct and for that part I give you credit. Before justification verse ten is meaningless for the non-believer. The problem is that you wrongly attempt to divorce being a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works from justification. The New Revised Standard Version of the bible quotes the passage as follows:

Eph 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing: it is the gift of God-not the result of works, so that no one may boast. **For we are what he has made us **, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

It is clear from verse 10 that at the point we are made right with God by grace that we are also made a new creation in Christ Jesus, by God, for good works which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. This also is not of our own doing. God did what is described in verse ten and not us. This is where the transforming power of God’s grace comes into play and where grace, faith, and works are all part of justification and are an integral part of our salvation. Attempts to separate these things from one another is a serious error.

The grace, the faith, and the works are of God. If I believe, that is if I have faith, than I am doing something. Naturally, I cannot believe/have faith unless the Father has given me the gift of faith. Likewise, I cannot be a new creation in Christ Jesus unless it happens by way of God’s grace. Likewise, I cannot do the works ordained by God beforehand to be my way of life unless they are done by way of God’s grace. It is all a gift and work of God within us.

Believing is something we do and no less a work than loving God and one’s neighbor. We cannot claim that we do anything on our own. We participate in our salvation by cooperating. You attempt to claim that this is works righteousness but that simply does not coincide with the facts.

Cooperation with God’s grace cannot be accomplished by us on our own. Our cooperation results from being made a new creation and by specific graces granted to us by God. Any denial of these truths effectively denies the power of God’s grace. Moreover, such denials logically make faith/believing a form of works righteousness because believing is an action that we do.

Moreover, when we deny these things we are denying God’s purpose for us. This is made especially clear by the following:

Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,

How is it that God predestines us to be conformed to the image of his son? We cannot and do not remain unchanged. We do not become conformed to the image of Jesus by being a dung heap that is merely covered with snow. To be conformed to the image of Jesus is a powerful statement on justification, sanctification, and being a new creation.

Man was originally created in the image and likeness of God without sin. When God conforms us to the image of his son, Jesus, we are given something even greater than what was enjoyed by Adam and Eve. Ponder all of this and pray on it. Look at your own life as a believer. Has God transformed you to the image of his son? Are you the same person that you were before you came to believe and know the Lord?

Paul says the following in 2 Cor 4:16-17, “Even though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing us for and eternal weight of glory beyond all measure.” We are indeed a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works. The works are the work of the Father within us.

Rejoice in the work of the Lord within you…you are not your own.

 

[sandusky]

Linkowski:

Then you would accuse me of Calivinistic theology – that God does it all (which is the truth). You need to be on the flipside of this thread (Protestant) - to understand that every word that I am saying is subjected to intense scrutiny to find any possible word or thought to pounce on. This is what I deal with each time I post. Anyway…only the elect are those who God will draw to himself - for He will have mercy on only those whom He wills…it is not of him that willeth or runneth…but of God that shows mercy.

Yes, Link; God does it all.

With respect to religion, there are only two:

1. *]The religion of Divine Accomplishment—God has done it all.
   
   OR
   
   *]The religion of Human Achievement—God has done some;
   I must do the rest.

 

[Pax]

Yes, Link; God does it all.

With respect to religion, there are only two:

1. *]The religion of Divine Accomplishment—God has done it all.
   
   OR
   
   *]The religion of Human Achievement—God has done some;
   I must do the rest.

1. 
   Sorry Sandusky, but you can’t have it both ways. Faith is believing and believing is something we do. Apparently, even faith falls into your defintion of “The Religion of Human Achievement.”

 

[apophasis]

I don’t think so. Catholicism teaches that salvation is by grace, through faith.

Actually, I think it teaches that salvation is by grace through faith plus works - appealing to James.

We are justified by the death of Jesus on the cross.

Whereas Scripture says God justifies, gitwise, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). And that “gift” is bestowed apart from works on the one who believes (Rom. 3:26).

That being said, it also teaches that a person that practices this type of faith will demonstrate that faith through one’s actions. If one fails to demonstrate it, then one is no longer connected to that saving grace.

You mean he’s no longer connected to that “justification?” So then, according to RC’ism God does not actually justify based on “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,” but one’s ability to demonstate his faith through good works.

As it says in John, “my brothers, let us love in word or in deed …because if one does not love his brother, how can he say he belongs to Christ”?

John is talking about what one “says” of himself. This passage has nothing to do with connecting or disconnecting oneself from divine justification.

It is not so much a co-mingling, I think as it is a logical following. If a person is within a saving faith,then one will demonstrate it by one’s deeds. In those cases, yes, the deeds impact ones sanctification. It may be a matter of semantics.

No. It’s really a matter of Biblical theology.

For most protestants, they refer to salvation or justification, and the path to following Christ one of being made in likeness with Him. Catholics call that process sanctification (becoming holy).

Protestant theology does not confound salvation and justification with sanctification. It maintains a distinction. Whereas RC theology does by inserting the nonbiblical doctrine of “initial” justification with the notion that it (justification) can be increased through the process of sanctification.

The process of sanctification does require “good works” (working out ones salvation with fear and trembling) but does not begin until one is first justified by saving faith. Does that make any sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. But working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling is not working FOR one’s salvation. It is God who sanctifies (sets apart), and it is God who justifies (declares righteous) the one who has faith in Jesus (1 Cor. 6:11).

Salvation, justification and sanctification are works of God. It is God who saves, justifies and, yes, even sanctifies the one who trusts in Jesus.

God prescribes faith as the sole condition of justification of a sinner because faith is an act of the soul which looks wholly away from self and honors the Almighty. Faith brings His creatures to Him in the one right attitude - complete submission and confidence in Him. Faith glorifies and exults God.