"Works" Salvation?

[apophasis]

I respect your comments, and understand your concerns. From the understanding why you feel that way. I do not feel it is correct, but understand your logic.

Actually none of my comments are based on personal feelings but divine, written revelation. And my “logic” is not mine but Paul’s.

Remember the parable that Christ told of the King who praised his servants for feeding him when he was hunger, clothing him when he was poor? Their response was, but lord, when do we feed you and when did we cloth you. He said, that which you do for the least of me you do for me. Remember also what he did to those that did not feed the least? he rebuked them, and threw them out.

They were cast out because they were not His “sheep.” Do you remember what He called those He cast out?

Here Christ is very explicit that we must perform our Christian duty to ALSO help those that need it.

But they were allowed into His Kingdom by the FACT that they were “sheep” and not “goats.” And, yes, they acted like His “sheep” would/will during those days just prior to His return to this present earth when He will set up His Millennial Kingdom.

Christ on many occasions gave very explicit ‘commands’ on who to help, why to help, when to help, etc.

But when it came to life eternal He said:“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (the cross); that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life.” And His beloved Apostle concurs (a testimony of at least two):1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in (obedient works? NO!) His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe (in their works? NO!) in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.Now, one might demonstrate by works that he has “the life,” but that life is “in the Son,” not in the works. The question is not if you have the works, but the Son. Because the life is not in the works, but “in the Son.”

The recurring theme this side of the cross is belief in the Son for eternal life. And he who has believed in the Son (His Person and work on our behalf), KNOWS he HAS eternal life (do you?). Because, “heisenburg,” though you have received the testimony of men, as John says, the testimony of God concerning His Son is even greater.

His will for us is to do good works FOR him (not for us) Eph 2:9-10. If he created us to do good works, and we refuse, aren’t we refusing to do his will, and thus sinning…

The “good works” in Eph. 2:10 are addressed to those who are “created in Christ Jesus.” Those who are already saved by grace through faith in the previous two verses. It’s works that are prepared beforehand that the one “created in Christ Jesus” should walk in.

I reiterate, its not the works, the works have nothing to do with it, its being obedient and doing the things he tells us to do.

Translation - obedience of works.

 

[apophasis]

NotWorthy:

I would put it two different ways: “Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can blow it”.

And, “Our good works can not merit our salvation, but they are necessary to preserve our Salvation.”.

Justification is a “gift” (Rom. 3:24). Salvation is a “gift” (Eph. 2:8-9). Eternal life is a “gift” (Rom. 6:23)."…for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).Clearly then, the teachings of RC’ism contradict Scripture.

 

[heisenburg]

Apop…

Greetings to you in Christ…

If my words have not come out clear, I do apologize. I can sometimes botch what I am saying. Ultimately, all I am saying is we must be obedient. That includes do what he commands us, That includes loving our neighbor, that includes having faith in Christ.

If you believe me or any other Catholic is ultimately driving at anything else, ask more questions. But ultimately, All Catholics call for is our obedience to what Christ, Paul, John, Peter, etc, teach.

Follow his words.
If we fail…
Ask for forgiveness…
If we don’t, we will loose our salvation.

It saddens me that you truly think we teach a salvation by works, but ultimately, it is not my place to change your mind, only Gods. All I can do is offer what is truth. If you do not believe it is truth, then I ask you look deeper.

I will pray for you that your prejudices will stop blinding you, because that is truly what they are doing. Your desire to prove we are preaching salvation by works is so overpowering, you cannot see what we are actually telling you. Any explanation we have given, you twist to try and say what you want.

If you do not believe that we have to be obedient and only have faith, then I pray for your soul. if you do believe we have to be obedient, why are you arguing as it is the same thing we believe.

That we must be obedient to Christ, and if we don’t, he will refuse us. No one is assured salvation until their day of Judgment.

May the Lord bless you in your Journey for truth.

 

[NotWorthy]

Justification is a “gift” (Rom. 3:24). Salvation is a “gift” (Eph. 2:8-9). Eternal life is a “gift” (Rom. 6:23)."…for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).Clearly then, the teachings of RC’ism contradict Scripture.

Yes, the gifts are irrevocable. God won’t take them away. But we can give them back.

Are you seriously trying to tell me, that a believer such as you can fornicate and murder at will and still be assured of his Salvation?

God is a God of Justice! How does this apply?

Look at what Paul exhorts of us withing 15 verses of Rom. 11:29:

Let love be sincere; hate what is evil, hold on to what is good; love one another with mutual affection; anticipate one another in showing honor. Do not grow slack in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the holy ones, exercise hospitality. Bless those who persecute (you), bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.

Paul is exhorting us to do Good Works in obedience to Christ’s words!!!

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotWorthy
I would put it two different ways: “Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can blow it”.

And, “Our good works can not merit our salvation, but they are necessary to preserve our Salvation.”.

Justification is a “gift” (Rom. 3:24). Salvation is a “gift” (Eph. 2:8-9). Eternal life is a “gift” (Rom. 6:23)."…for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).Clearly then, the teachings of RC’ism contradict Scripture.

Rom11:29 : The author was talking about the NATION of the Jews, who’s promises (due to His covenant) He will always honor. He will ALWAYS continue to OFFER His love, but if the OFFER is not taken, under what reasoning are the gifts to be delivered?

God can give you the gifts of Justification, Salvation, and Eternal Life.

Then he can give you the gift of Damnation, if he see’s fit.

It’s not up to you to tell God what He can and cannot do.

I wish you luck in your “bargaining” with God, and forcing Him to do what YOU think is right…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha.

 

[Linkowski]

Do you think this represents the full teaching of the Catholic Church on salvation?

Or is it more correct to say that the Church does not now nor has it ever taught that we are saved by works?

No - but it is in contradiction which is confusing. And, I will testify again that I was very confused as a Catholic.

 

[Linkowski]

So you had to empty yourself, and then submit to Christ by turning to Him… Are these works? Something that you had to do to be saved?

No - this is God changing my heart and granting repentance and faith. He changed me by the power of the gospel.

 

[Linkowski]

Context! He is referring to Children of the Law, Jews!

You were referring to Romans 11:6…

Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(KJV)

BUT…whether it is Jewish law or some other law, it does not matter. In any case, my original posting showed paragraph 1345 which spoke of keeping commandments that we might obtain eternal salvation…the commandments are part of the law.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

No - this is God changing my heart and granting repentance and faith. He changed me by the power of the gospel.

Ok that is not what you said earlier though. You said, “I” did this “I” did that. Not “God did this” or “God did that”. By the way, Who do you think a Catholic would attribute the, “works” to that you accuse us of? Could it be God changing our hearts? Repentance was something you did, whether moved by God or not.

Perhaps you can explain this to me, I am not a theologian, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

God bless

 

[Linkowski]

In these three quotes, you acknowledge:

1. that you misunderstood what the Catholic Church teaches when you were young,
2. that Catholic are not like the Pharisees, and
3. that “maybe” you have taken the Catechism out of context.

In light of these acknowledged errors, I’m wondering if it might be appropriate for you to take a fresh, deep look at the faith that you mistakenly abandoned?

It is interesting how you try to twist my comments - please don’t do that.

1. Was my misunderstanding the fault of my own?? I was in Catechism every Monday…I did everything that I was supposed to - and yet still had this belief that I had to do good to get to heaven - this falls in line to every other Catholic that I talk to about salvation - they seem to pick up the same teaching.
2. I said that I usually do not see Catholic acting quite as extreme as the Pharisees - but the attitude of - I keep the commandments and try to do good things as a means of salvation would fit along with this passage…

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

1. Yes - I took it out of context - but that which was taken out of context is contradictory to scripture and to other parts of the CCC.

 

[Linkowski]

Ok that is not what you said earlier though. You said, “I” did this “I” did that. Not “God did this” or “God did that”. By the way, Who do you think a Catholic would attribute the, “works” to that you accuse us of? Could it be God changing our hearts? Repentance was something you did, whether moved by God or not.

Perhaps you can explain this to me, I am not a theologian, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night.

God bless

Then you would accuse me of Calivinistic theology - that God does it all (which is the truth). You need to be on the flipside of this thread (Protestant) - to understand that every word that I am saying is subjected to intense scrutiny to find any possible word or thought to pounce on. This is what I deal with each time I post. Anyway…only the elect are those who God will draw to himself - for He will have mercy on only those whom He wills…it is not of him that willeth or runneth…but of God that shows mercy.

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (you will ask) God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 “THOU” wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

He chooses us - we do not choose Him.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Then you would accuse me of Calivinistic theology

I accused you of no such thing. All this talk about repentance and “emptying of self-righteousness” I accuse you of a work-based salvation if anyhting. Don’t tell me I have to repent and empty my self-rightousness, all I need is faith and faith alone. Right?

Linkowski, do I have to love God? If all I need is faith, is there any need for me to love God? After all Jn 3:16 says:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This says that God loved the world, nothing here about me having to love God… In fact if I were to take what you called a “flipside” view of this verse (or other words protestant) all this says is that I have to believe in Him, nothing about loving Him.

Do I have to love God to be saved?

God bless

 

[Bishopite]

[apophasis;1990698]The man asked, “what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life.” Jesus quoted from the Decalogue. The obvious answer is there is nothing he can do since he cannot do any of those things perfectly. In fact, they can only condemn him (2 Cor. 3:6-11; cf. Rom. 7:7-25).Yes, “obedience of FAITH.”

Proof texting Scripture without the context doesn’t do justice. Jesus is comdemning the rich man because Jesus being God “knew” the mans heart, which was fixed on his wealth. The mans wealth and money was his god. That’s why Jesus asked him to give up everything and follow Him. And again there is a difference between “personal works” that don’t justify and works of grace like Gal 5:6 “faith working through love” Do you deny there is a difference?

The message this side of the cross is not what good things we can do for eternal life, but what GREAT thing Christ has done to procure eternal life for all who believe (Jn. 3:14-18)

You need to read Mt 25:34-40 which explains “how” the just are righteous before God in this life which will affect the outcome of the next life. That Jesus does everything and we don’t do anything in cooperation with His grace is false.

 

[VociMike]

One more time, for you, Mike, because I am fond of you, and the others.

Without looking at the link, I assume it is the one about an ex-evangelical pastor who is now an atheist, and wrote a book about it, correct?

One cannot preclude repentance; as long as he breathes, he may repent.

If he does not repent, and goes to his grave in his present attitude, and is assigned to the lake of fire, then he never had an enduring faith to begin with—at least not a faith that abided in Jesus.

OK, thanks. Now if I ever claim not to have received a reply again you can whap my 'side the head.

But you have here yourself recognized the problem with OSAS. One can never be sure at any given moment that they have saving faith. So even if OSAS is true, it is a useless truth because one can never be sure of the OS part. I would say that makes OSAS even worse than useless, because it hides from people a reality that even you admit to - the possibility that somebody who thinks they have saving faith may not indeed have that faith.

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky:

How is the loss of salvation through sinning not performance-based salvation?

NotWorthy:

Because, Sandusky, Salvation is a process, not a one-time event.

You can be pruned from the vine that you have been grafted onto, isn’t that correct?

That sounds like a partial concession?

The purpose of pruning is to yield more fruit; I’m not following you; perhaps re-stating the question another way will help.

NotWorthy:

Our works do not help us attain Salvation, they help us retain our Salvation.

Give me some support for that statement.

 

[Linkowski]

OK, thanks. Now if I ever claim not to have received a reply again you can whap my 'side the head.

But you have here yourself recognized the problem with OSAS. One can never be sure at any given moment that they have saving faith. So even if OSAS is true, it is a useless truth because one can never be sure of the OS part. I would say that makes OSAS even worse than useless, because it hides from people a reality that even you admit to - the possibility that somebody who thinks they have saving faith may not indeed have that faith.

Hebrews 10:39 KJV 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 4:13 KJV 13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:19 KJV 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Don’t get me wrong - I do not just sit back and wait it out…We are to be diligent to make certain of our calling and election…

2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

And we are to walk worthy of our calling…realizing that we were bought with a price and we are not our own…We are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we must bear fruit as Christians abiding in the vine…these we do not to keep or attain unto salvation but because we are saved.

 

[Linkowski]

I accused you of no such thing. All this talk about repentance and “emptying of self-righteousness” I accuse you of a work-based salvation if anyhting. Don’t tell me I have to repent and empty my self-rightousness, all I need is faith and faith alone. Right?

Linkowski, do I have to love God? If all I need is faith, is there any need for me to love God? After all Jn 3:16 says:

This says that God loved the world, nothing here about me having to love God… In fact if I were to take what you called a “flipside” view of this verse (or other words protestant) all this says is that I have to believe in Him, nothing about loving Him.

Do I have to love God to be saved?

God bless

I did not say that you did accuse me…this is, however, the typical response that I get when I talk of my salvation from the standpoint of it being God’s own doing.

You do not understand…all that we are as Christians is attributable only to the saving grace of God and the work that He does in the heart at salvation - the works that we do are a result of that great change that He makes…

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Do I have to love God to be saved? When God gives us repentance and faith and we understand the grace/mercy/love of God in bruising His Son for us, we cannot help but love Him in return…we love Him because He first loved us…love us not a prerequisite for salvation but a result of it. Anyone that genuinely receives His gifts cannot help but love in return. If there is not a resulting love, then, obviously, they have not received of His gifts.

 

[NotWorthy]

That sounds like a partial concession?

The purpose of pruning is to yield more fruit; I’m not following you; perhaps re-stating the question another way will help.

Give me some support for that statement. (the statement regarding works helps you retain your salvation)

I think the crux of the matter is the Catholic belief that Salvation is a process, and your belief is that once someone is saved, they are always saved.

However, fWhen you are pruned from the vine, the vine is pruned. You are cut off. This is when you turn away from God. But, you can be re-grafted onto the vine.

Doesn’t Jesus state many times that we are judged by our works? Does Jesus say we are judged by our faith? Hence, our works must count for something. We know they don’t merit salvation - everyone agrees on that. But the Bible tells us that the person who does good works is storing up riches in heaven (paraphrasing).

IMHO, If Paul teaches something that can be construed two different ways (that our works do help us, and that they don’t), but Jesus tells us to do good works many, many times, then I’m going with Jesus, thank you. Most of the Sermon on the Plain involved doing good things.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You do not understand…

Speaking of typical responses

If there is not a resulting love, then, obviously, they have not received of His gifts.

What does this mean for faith alone then? Because what you are saying here is that faith, without love cannot save you.

Nonetheless though I got it, no love (no matter how much faith some one has) no salvation…

So just to recap now,

I have to:

Have faith
repent
empty self-rightousness
and now love Him

Jeeze salvation according to you has so much work involved.

Anything else that I need to do? do I need obedience? Do I need to read the Bible? Do I need to witness and spread the Gospel?

God bless

 

[sandusky]

VociMike:

OK, thanks. Now if I ever claim not to have received a reply again you can whap my 'side the head.

I’m no longer violent.

VociMike:

But you have here yourself recognized the problem with OSAS. One can never be sure at any given moment that they have saving faith. So even if OSAS is true, it is a useless truth because one can never be sure of the OS part. I would say that makes OSAS even worse than useless, because it hides from people a reality that even you admit to - the possibility that somebody who thinks they have saving faith may not indeed have that faith.

True.

Some who are saved are never sure, and there are a number of possible reasons for that. Some are weak in their faith, and overly-scrupulous, and they do not fully understand the forgiveness of God in Christ; others sit under strong preaching, which can have the effect of causing uncertainty, but the point of strong preaching is not to make one unsure, but to exhort one to be sure through the study of, and application of biblical principles, and promises; if one is diligent, assurance will come; that is a promise.

But none of that detracts from the doctrine of security, or makes it useless; one’s great assurance, opposed to another’s lack of assurance does not affect what I consider to be the truth of eternal security.

I am very certain of my salvation; I wasn’t at first because of what I was before; but the more I study, and the more Christian maturity through sanctification is gained, the more certain I become.

That is because I am confident in the ability of the one in whom I have placed my faith to save me forever (Heb 7:25); I can’t do it.