"Works" Salvation?

[apophasis]

No article? it says specoifically “of the Law”. It’s referring to works “of the Law”.

Not the Greek -it’s “works of law.” That is, the principle of law. IOW, Paul clearly teaches throughout his Epistles that man is not saved either by works of [the] Law (Mosiac, including the Decalogue), or on the principle of law (obedience of works). But Paul’s gospel is that a man is saved by grace through FAITH in Christ’s obedient work on his behalf alone.

 

[sandusky]

No, I sure don’t. Maybe the 4th time will be the charm.

Ain’t gonna be no 4th time; where I’m from once is enough; be thankful for the extra two.

 

[Bishopite]

But based on Scripture salvation is never based even on works a man performs, even works enabled by God to perform (Eph. 2:8-9). What separates man from God is sin, not lack of works (Heb. 1:3). Works may follow a sin-cleansed man who has put his faith in the word concerning the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of Christ on his behalf (the word of the cross), but even those "enabled works" are not the basis on which he was saved. Sin was always the issue, not works - whether an abundance of them or lack of them.

Completely false and what you are defending is anti-nomianism, which is condemned by most every Protestant denomination. And by no means stop at Eph 2:9 go to verse 10 where we were “created for good works.”
What you are falsely assuming is that all “works” in Scripture are the same.
Gal 5:6 faith working through love. Phil 2:12 “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
Works performed by our personal works are those of Mt 25:41-46, notice those they “did” works but not works of charity.
However, works of after justication under grace are those of Mt 25:34-40
(KJV)
“Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and **you clothed **Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and **take **You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’”

Notice the righteous gave, clothed, take Christ in, came to the poor, visited and most of all DID works of charity.

Rom 2:5-8" But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath," (KJV)

We will be judged by not only our faith but our works. These verses parrellel Mt 25:34-46 where the righteous “do” the works of charity under Gods grace or do self-seeking works and do NOT obey.
1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work”
The Bible is clear, that we have to do works of charity along with our faith or is it a dead faith, James 2:17,2:24.

 

[sandusky]

How can it be confusion? I have read the Catholic Catechism many times, and there isn’t anything that is confusing about it. It maybe difficult to understand from a Non-Catholic Christian because they lack any formal understanding of Catholicism doctrines especially in the lines of salvation and justification.

Mortal sin came out of 1 John 5:16-17 , where John wrote that there is a sin that is deadly and not deadly.

If you break this passage down. John speaks of a sin that is deadly? It is mortal sin. It takes away the sancifying grace that we gain in from our Christian baptism (Yes baptism does save see 1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ). But that is another topic.

Let us move on with the current topic. How is sin deadly? It destroys the grace which we merit in our Christian baptism. By commiting sinful acts such as fornication or abortion, the grace is gone. It can be only regain through repentance with a contrite heart.

If we read 1 John 5:17, All wrong doing is sin, but there is a sin that is not deadly. A sin that is not deadly is venial. It doesn’t remove the grace which we earn by Christian baptism. To illustrate my point, when a man robs 65 million dollars, it is a serious matter. He gets a longer sentence. A man who steals a candy bar will likely get a lighter sentence. As we can see, not all crime are the same.

Likewise, in mortal and venial sin it also works in the same way. When one commits an abortion it is more serious than a someone who makes a white lie.

Where do people who die in mortal sin go? Hell. How about venial sin? They go to a third place Purgatory, where their souls are purged. Remember nothing impure can enter into heaven.

Let us take a look at the Scripture concerning a place of purification.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59

POINTS IN THE PASSAGES: Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48

POINTS OF THE PASSAGES: Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32

POINTS IN THE PASSAGES:– Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Thanks for all that Manny, however you’ve not answered the question.

How is the loss of salvation through sinning not performance-based salvation?

 

[VociMike]

Ain’t gonna be no 4th time; where I’m from once is enough; be thankful for the extra two.

Well since it would be so simple for you to answer “yes, he is saved” or “no, he isn’t saved” but instead you choose to be obsinate about it, I will continue to maintain that no OSAS believer has ever dealt with his example. I am also inclined now to think that you didn’t actually provide a clear answer those first three times, which is why I have no recollection of them.

Prove me wrong and I’ll happily engage you in over your answer.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Ain’t gonna be no 4th time; where I’m from once is enough; be thankful for the extra two.

If you could explain it while remaining obediant to the all the teaching of Christ and the Apostles, then he would get it. Until then you’ll have to repeat yourself in hopes that you say something loud enough to be heard.

Truth speaks louder that fiction!

 

[NotWorthy]

Ain’t gonna be no 4th time; where I’m from once is enough; be thankful for the extra two.

How about a link to one of the three, so that some of us who haven’t seen any of them may benefit…

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Thanks for all that Manny, however you’ve not answered the question.

How is the loss of salvation through sinning not performance-based salvation?

How is “proclaiming your faith” before your ecumentical gathering not performance based salvation? How is it not boosting?

 

[NotWorthy]

For about the umpteenth time, Catholics are saved by Grace through Faith. Nothing more, nothing less.

But (it seems we part company here), our Salvation is a process from then on. It is up to us to use the Talents that God gave us, that Grace working through Faith, that can help us to retain this Eternal Life that we have inherited.

Jesus talks way too often about our being judged by our actions, not by our Faith, to completely disown our works as being integral to our Salvation.

So, even though our works cannot inherit the Kingdom the God, they can surely help us stay in the Kingdom of God (or lose our inheritance).

And St. Paul reaffirms this obedience of Faith that Jesus introduces in the Gospels.

 

[VociMike]

If you could explain it while remaining obediant to the all the teaching of Christ and the Apostles, then he would get it. Until then you’ll have to repeat yourself in hopes that you say something loud enough to be heard.

Truth speaks louder that fiction!

How about a link to one of the three, so that some of us who haven’t seen any of them may benefit…

C’mon Sandusky, your public is clamoring!

Seriously, I’m willing to acknowledge that you addressed the matter, just show me. And then I can show you how his case makes rubbish of OSAS.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks for all that Manny, however you’ve not answered the question.

How is the loss of salvation through sinning not performance-based salvation?

Because, Sandusky, Salvation is a process, not a one-time event.

You can be pruned from the vine that you have been grafted onto, isn’t that correct?

 

[heisenburg]

How is the loss of salvation through sinning not performance-based salvation?

I tried answering your question, but I think it got lost in the Posts…

I’ll post a much abbreviated version, but if you scroll down a few posts, you will see a more complete explanation.

Are we saved by our works? absolutely not. We cannot Earn our salvation by works! Any and every knowledgeable catholic will tell you this.

How then is NOT performing those works Not salvation by works?

Because it is not the lack of works that separates you, it is the Sin the results from being disobedient.

Christ Tells us to Keep the commandments. Paul tells us to live a holy life. By NOT doing this, we create Sin. and it is the Sin from not doing that separates us. It is not the lack of works, it is the action of being disobedient.

Hope that helps

In Christ

 

[NotWorthy]

Actually, in Matt. 25 He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” Being “sheep” they were already saved (obviously through faith). The works were done because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him:John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"Notice, He knows them. They’re His sheep. A shepherd knows his sheep.

Yes, but there are sheep that follow the shepherd, and then get lost. Just as there are Christians that lovingly follow the Lord, and then they slip and fail. Some return to the fold (and there is great rejoicing in Heaven), but some don’t.

The works were done because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him:

And any good Catholic will agree with this whole-heartedly. Any good works that we do is the Grace of Christ working through us. But what point does that prove?

If God’s Grace is working through us, (IOW if we have a Living Faith or an Active Faith), then it will show in our Good Works. However if God’s Grace is not working through us, then we have a Faith that is dead. That’s good sound Catholic Doctrine, and I believe, most Christian Faiths believe this, too.

 

[Church_Militant]

Not in the Greek.

So the Greek is all that is inspired?

 

[VociMike]

Because it is not the lack of works that separates you, it is the Sin the results from being disobedient.

Christ Tells us to Keep the commandments. Paul tells us to live a holy life. By NOT doing this, we create Sin. and it is the Sin from not doing that separates us. It is not the lack of works, it is the action of being disobedient.

I am fairly convinced that the issue of obedience (submission) is the key here. “Faith Alone” Christians are willing to do good works, even happy to do them, but they refuse to accept any sense of obligation or necessary obedience. They want to do these works because they want to do them, not because God requires it of them. It is, at the core, a refusal to submit themselves to God’s will, to acknowledge “not my will but thine”. It is very much in line with their refusal to submit to Christ’s Church. “Bible-only” Christians will submit to nothing or nobody but themselves, their own understanding of scripture.

 

[Mannyfit75]

sandusky,

The Catholic Church teaches based its teachings about salvation on Scripture.

It teaches that God’s grace saved. Not works or faith. With God’s grace we are saved. It is through the merit of God’s grace that we have faith. It is our work that shows our faith is reveal. I have posted another message on this thread.

Abraham have faith. How did he show his faith? He offer his son as a sacrifice to God. Mere work by itself cannot save you. Nor can faith alone save you. It is through the grace of God that we have faith, and by the merits of God’s grace, our works is the result of our faith.

The Bible states we are saved by faith. So does the Catholic Church. The Bible also states that we are not save by faith alone just James said in his Letters.

The Catholic Catechism is a summary of Catholic belief. It uses Scripture, early Christian documents from the ECF, Church Councils, and Magisterial Documents…

 

[Lazerlike42]

When we are apart from Christ, neither sinning nor doing good is of any avail for us. When we are in Christ however, we do all we do by the Grace of God. We have to stay away from deliberate sins, by which we can reject the gift of salvation, but this is not based on our mere works, but on our acceptance or rejection of God’s Grace. If God offers us the Grace to resist adultery but we do it anyways, we have to by the very nature of having God’s Grace reject that Grace to commit such an egregious act.

Also, Saint Paul teaches that men are slaves to whoever they yield themselves to (Romans 6:16).When a person sins deliberately he puts himself back under the reign of sin and yields himself as a slave to sin. In Matthew 6:24, Christ taught that a man cannot have two masters. He was speaking about money but the principle is the same. One is either a servant of Christ or a servant of sin. The Lord will forgive even deliberate sins when a person repents of them, but committing a sin intentionally as opposed to doing so out of weakness is to choose to serve sin as a master instead of Christ. A sin done by instinct of weakness - that is just the nature of a fallen person - but deliberate sin - sin that requires a real choice of the mind - that’s not just some sort of mishap, but really choosing to yield oneself to it. It is nothing less than a rejection of the Lordship of Christ; it couldn’t be any other thing, or we would have two masters. When I lose my temper without thinking, I’m not yielding myself to sin, it’s just a case of the flesh ‘doing what I don’t want to do’ as St. Paul wrote about in Romans 7. When I deliberately choose to say something terrible to someone, that’s more. That’s not just the flesh; that’s me making a choice to yield myself to sin. That puts sin as my master, and unless Christ is my master, I can’t be saved.

 

[NotWorthy]

I am fairly convinced that the issue of obedience (submission) is the key here. “Faith Alone” Christians are willing to do good works, even happy to do them, but they refuse to accept any sense of obligation or necessary obedience. They want to do these works because they want to do them, not because God requires it of them. It is, at the core, a refusal to submit themselves to God’s will, to acknowledge “not my will but thine”. It is very much in line with their refusal to submit to Christ’s Church. “Bible-only” Christians will submit to nothing or nobody but themselves, their own understanding of scripture.

Although it’s very difficult and often inaccurate, to lump all Protestant theology into a nice neat package…

I think you’ll find that they do Good Works out of a love for the Lord, or a desire to please Him.

And, instead of being a refusal to submit to God’s Will (I think anyone who Loves God wishes to submit to His Will), it’s a refusal to believe that the Catholic Church is the Churc that Christ built. And, being taught that way for most of their lives, I can understant the resiliency in coming to grips with this theology. Always remember, that a vast majority of our Christian brothers love and serve the Lord no less than most good Catholics.

If we start from there, we may have be able to achieve the unity that I so wish we could have.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Not in the Greek.

Work of the Law in the Greek is always ergon nomos, without an article. Nomos is a singular genitive noun, which is why it is rendered as “of the law.” The genitive case indicates that the works are of ‘law,’ and the singular number indicate it is ‘the Law’ as opposed to just law in general. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the genitive case strengthens the singular number leading even moreso to render it ‘of the law.’

In any case, the folks that translated all these different versions of Scripture saw fit to translate it as “the law,” and so I think all humility directs us to accept their learnedness unless we have a very good reason not to.

 

[Tom]

The Apostle Paul differentiates between “works” and works “of the Law”.
Romans 2: Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? 5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.