"Works" Salvation?

[Linkowski]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

This may be taken out of context but it is contradictory to other areas of the CCC as has been shown (passages with regard to grace)…the two are diametrically opposed from the standpoint of attaining salvation (as the means)…

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Also, perseverance is not only looked upon in scripture as a condition for entering heaven but it is also looked upon as an evidence…

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Notice - have become…not will become. It is along the same lines as …

Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

He does not say here…you must do everything I say to become a disciple…it is…you have become a disciple if you do the things that I say. It is a matter of what we are and not what we do…HOWEVER…what we do does have alot to do with what we are. There are pretenders out there, however, people who live in religion that are spiritually dead.

The same is said here…

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house–whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

We also have scriptures like…

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

and John 13:10…

Joh 13:10 Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

And…

Ro 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

There is no condemnation to one in Christ…

Ro 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Because we are dead to the law and therefore cannot be charged with sin in the sense that we lose our righteous standing with God in Christ…

Ro 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

The elect do not lose their election. They were chosen from before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Sacraments are works/rituals/ceremonies…and are presented as necessary for salvation. I remained dead through all of them as a child - the power of God was not in those sacraments. It was not until I was born again by the Word of God…when I saw that I must empty myself of my own self-righteousness and submit to the righteousness of God by turning to Christ as Lord and Savior…rather than reciting a creed that said I believe ABOUT these things…I then began to believe IN them.

Paragraph 1345 of the CCC fosters the “justification by law” mentality.

 

[sandusky]

Lazerlike42:

Work of the Law in the Greek is always ergon nomos, without an article. Nomos is a singular genitive noun, which is why it is rendered as “of the law.” The genitive case indicates that the works are of ‘law,’ and the singular number indicate it is ‘the Law’ as opposed to just law in general. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the genitive case strengthens the singular number leading even moreso to render it ‘of the law.’

In any case, the folks that translated all these different versions of Scripture saw fit to translate it as “the law,” and so I think all humility directs us to accept their learnedness unless we have a very good reason not to.

True.

The point of the whole section is that the function of law is never to justify, but to reveal sin; therefore, law-keeping in any form not only will not justify, but cannot justify; that is the problem with “ the law”: it establishes the perfect standard, but “the law” has no way of enabling one to keep it, and so “the law” kills (Rom 7:9). Trying to make “the law,” any “law,” perform in justification, perverts God’s intent for "law," which again, is to reveal sin.

Also, though in Rom 3:20, it is written “of law,” nomou, Paul uses it elsewhere without the modifier, with no indication that it means anything different (Rom 7:12, 16; 1 Tim 1:8). “Law,” is holy, righteous, and good, but the function and purpose of “law” stated negatively is not to save; again, stated postively the purpose of the law is to reveal sin.

Back to the OP’s topic.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Overwhelming evidence and Truth scared them off

 

[Tom]

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Context! He is referring to Children of the Law, Jews!
www.drbo.org:

Romans 1:1 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 

[Tom]

Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

“If you continue”? You mean we have to “do” something?

He does not say here…you must do everything I say to become a disciple…it is…you have become a disciple if you do the things that I say. It is a matter of what we are and not what we do…HOWEVER…what we do does have alot to do with what we are. There are pretenders out there, however, people who live in religion that are spiritually dead.

No, read the words again, “"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine” if you do not continue you are not a disciple.
www.drbo.org:

John 14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do. 15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God. Do you not agree that this type of teaching fosters a “works” salvation (works being the means of our salvation?? Truly, the commandments were not given that we might obtain salvation through them but that the knowledge of sin would come by them. That is the first and foremost purpose of the law/commandments. Otherwise, I as a Christian, now love His law and live by it - out of love for Him and to please Him…not as a means of salvation.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Looking for comments.

Do you think this represents the full teaching of the Catholic Church on salvation?

Or is it more correct to say that the Church does not now nor has it ever taught that we are saved by works?

 

[NotWorthy]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.”

Link, I’ve missed you since you punched me between the eyes on the “praying to Mary” thread. It would be nice if you stayed on a thread a little longer.

What you are referencing is not contradictory to Catholic Doctrine. It’s contradictory to your theology on Salvation. Salvation is a process. Our works do not help us attain Salvation, they help us retain our Salvation.

As Jesus stated, you will be judged on your actions. You must have Faith to receive Eternal Life (This is what Catholics call Sanctifying Grace), but your works, acting through Faith and Love in Jesus’ words, help us to remain in this state of sanctifying Grace.

You should have stayed in the Catholic Church a little longer to find out what we truly teach, Link!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well…in light is the scripture reference, you cannot be justified with this attitude.

Luke 18:10-13 KJV 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The obsession has to do with the answer of a Catholic to - “Do you have eternal life?”…When they boast of their keeping commandments and their good deeds…the gospel must be given.

You call it “boasting” in order to cast what these folks have said in a negative light. However, if you have asked them a question, and they have given you a fair answer, why disparage it?

The scriptures say:
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.” Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:17-21)

Link, Jesus looked at him and loved him for giving an answer very similar to the one you castigate.

Jesus was able to judge the hearts of the Pharisees to see that they were not right with God, but he also judged the heart of the rich young man and LOVED him for what he saw.

Are you able to judge so accurately that you can be certain of how the Catholics you look down upon stand before their God?

 

[apophasis]

Greatings Apop and Bishop

As mentioned, we are not, nor are we ever ‘saved’ based on what we do… However, NOT doing what he says is a sin. so ultimately, it is not the lack of work that separates us, it is the Sin that results from the lack of Christian work that separates us.

That’s a clever twist. But no matter how many spins you put on it, you’re right back to the same old false gospel of salvation based on works.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

…when I saw that I must empty myself of my own self-righteousness and submit to the righteousness of God by turning to Christ as Lord and Savior

So you had to empty yourself, and then submit to Christ by turning to Him… Are these works? Something that you had to do to be saved?

 

[Lazerlike42]

True.

The point of the whole section is that the function of law is never to justify, but to reveal sin; therefore, law-keeping in any form not only will not justify, but cannot justify; that is the problem with “ the law”: it establishes the perfect standard, but “the law” has no way of enabling one to keep it, and so “the law” kills (Rom 7:9). Trying to make “the law,” any “law,” perform in justification, perverts God’s intent for "law," which again, is to reveal sin.

Also, though in Rom 3:20, it is written “of law,” nomou, Paul uses it elsewhere without the modifier, with no indication that it means anything different (Rom 7:12, 16; 1 Tim 1:8). “Law,” is holy, righteous, and good, but the function and purpose of “law” stated negatively is not to save; again, stated postively the purpose of the law is to reveal sin.

Back to the OP’s topic.

Actually, I agree with you 1000% - neither the Mosaic Law nor any other law has the power to justify, nor was that the intent. The Catholic understanding of things does as well, at least with what you have written here. You are 1000% right.

The difference is that Catholics point to the same St. Paul that indicates that law cannot justify when he also indicates that obedience merits a reward and causes us to grow in holiness. Catholics point to James, who teaches that works do justify - not in that they cause a person to be justified, but in that works done in Grace merit an increase in justification.

Catholics do not believe they are saved by works, or they aren’t supposed to anyways. They believe they are justified by works after the initial justification. This is the real disagreement - can justification increase or is it merely imputed. This is the entire issue. Aside from this, I really believe that Catholics and Protestants are in about 99% agreement. Get this one thing worked out, and everything else falls quickly into place.

 

[apophasis]

Completely false and what you are defending is anti-nomianism, which is condemned by most every Protestant denomination.

No. “Anti-nomianism” is a life of lawlessness, not salvation according to law obedience (works). Every saved believer is exhorted to “walk according to his calling” (Eph. 4:1; cf Rom. 12:1-2). But one is not saved BY his walk or his calling, but BY grace through faith in the sacrificial work of Christ alone ("..but we preach Christ crucified").

And by no means stop at Eph 2:9 go to verse 10 where we were “created for good works.”

Yes, created “in Christ Jesus.” That’s a whole new identity and is as eternal as Christ Himself.

What you are falsely assuming is that all “works” in Scripture are the same.

They are when it comes to salvation. NONE can merit it. However, they’re not the same in respect to believer’s and rewards (1Cor. 3:10-15).

 

[heisenburg]

greetings Apop…

I respect your comments, and understand your concerns. From the understanding why you feel that way. I do not feel it is correct, but understand your logic.

I would like to remind you of a particular parable…

Remember the parable that Christ told of the King who praised his servants for feeding him when he was hunger, clothing him when he was poor? Their response was, but lord, when do we feed you and when did we cloth you. He said, that which you do for the least of me you do for me.

Remember also what he did to those that did not feed the least? he rebuked them, and threw them out.

Here Christ is very explicit that we must perform our Christian duty to ALSO help those that need it. Christ on many occasions gave very explicit ‘commands’ on who to help, why to help, when to help, etc.

I am simply putting forth that the works do not Earn us anything. However, in not doing the works, we are being disobedient. The punishment would be the same if i didn’t love my neighbor. In both cases, I am being disobedient. It has nothing to do with works, it has to do with be obedient to God.

Remember, as mentioned, God said in Numbers, anyone that intentionally does not do his will, Has Blasphemed the Lord.

This did Not change with the NT.

His will for us is to do good works FOR him (not for us) Eph 2:9-10. If he created us to do good works, and we refuse, aren’t we refusing to do his will, and thus sinning…

I reiterate, its not the works, the works have nothing to do with it, its being obedient and doing the things he tells us to do.

All I ask is that you truly consider this. Not from the point of view of works, but from the point of view of being obedient.

Catholic teaching Abhors the idea of Salvation by Works just as mush as you

In Christ

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am merely speaking of the attitude…I did not say that Catholics go around doing what that Pharisee did. The boastful attitude is what I speak of…the attitude that is contrary to the humility in the beginning of the Beatitudes.

Out of context? Maybe so…but we certainly see mixed messages…and I as well as the other Catholic folk that I talk to witness to the overall teaching that seems to indicate a works-based salvation. That is all I have…I do not want to drag this out.

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God.

In these three quotes, you acknowledge:

1. that you misunderstood what the Catholic Church teaches when you were young,
2. that Catholic are not like the Pharisees, and
3. that “maybe” you have taken the Catechism out of context.

In light of these acknowledged errors, I’m wondering if it might be appropriate for you to take a fresh, deep look at the faith that you mistakenly abandoned?

 

[sandusky]

VociMike:

C’mon Sandusky, your public is clamoring!

My public is private, Mike.

VociMike:

Seriously, I’m willing to acknowledge that you addressed the matter, just show me. And then I can show you how his case makes rubbish of OSAS.

One more time, for you, Mike, because I am fond of you, and the others.

Without looking at the link, I assume it is the one about an ex-evangelical pastor who is now an atheist, and wrote a book about it, correct?

One cannot preclude repentance; as long as he breathes, he may repent.

If he does not repent, and goes to his grave in his present attitude, and is assigned to the lake of fire, then he never had an enduring faith to begin with—at least not a faith that abided in Jesus.

Faith cannot be lost as it is a gift of God peculiar both to God, and to the one to whom faith is given. (God is not an “Indian-giver” with respect to faith and salvation; the principle concerning God’s gifts and calling is that they are irrevocable (Rom 11:29) by Him; God does not take back faith that He gives, and the one to whom it is given cannot lose it because he has not the power to do so.

Bombs away quickly, and back to the OP.

 

[apophasis]

Yes, but there are sheep that follow the shepherd, and then get lost. Just as there are Christians that lovingly follow the Lord, and then they slip and fail. Some return to the fold (and there is great rejoicing in Heaven), but some don’t.

Can you show me in that passage in Matt. 25 where Christ is talking about “lost” sheep? And does not a good shepherd seek even after his sheep that are lost (Lk. 15:4-6)?

If God’s Grace is working through us, (IOW if we have a Living Faith or an Active Faith), then it will show in our Good Works.

Yes, but those works cannot save you. According to Scripture one is saved on a completely different principle - “by grace through faith.”

However if God’s Grace is not working through us, then we have a Faith that is dead.

Or you never had a “Faith” that saves.

That’s good sound Catholic Doctrine, and I believe, most Christian Faiths believe this, too.

Only in that faith can be demonstrated by works, but works can never save. Salvation is always based on one’s faith in Christ alone:"through whom we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…" (Rom. 5:1-2).

 

[sandusky]

Lazerlike42:

Actually, I agree with you 1000% - neither the Mosaic Law nor any other law has the power to justify, nor was that the intent. The Catholic understanding of things does as well, at least with what you have written here. You are 1000% right.

The difference is that Catholics point to the same St. Paul that indicates that law cannot justify when he also indicates that obedience merits a reward and causes us to grow in holiness. Catholics point to James, who teaches that works do justify - not in that they cause a person to be justified, but in that works done in Grace merit an increase in justification.

Catholics do not believe they are saved by works, or they aren’t supposed to anyways. They believe they are justified by works after the initial justification. This is the real disagreement - can justification increase or is it merely imputed. This is the entire issue. Aside from this, I really believe that Catholics and Protestants are in about 99% agreement. Get this one thing worked out, and everything else falls quickly into place.

That is the sticking point; don’t underestimate it, or oversimplify it; it is not a small matter.

I don’t believe that at any given point in one’s life, he is ever anymore justified than he is at the moment he first believes; that is the gift of eternal life; one is also fully sanctified at that point in the strict sense of being set apart; however, there is also a practical aspect to sanctification, realized and worked out in fear and trembling, in the distance traveled between first believing, and ending in the grave; it is that travel between those two points that is sanctification in which the believer grows in holiness and knowledge, through obedience and works.

The works I do will be rewarded, if they pass muster; if they don’t pass muster, they will not be rewarded, but I will still be saved.

Salvation is the gift; salvation is not a reward.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by VociMike forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
My comment is, why are some Protestants so obsessed with what they see as “works salvation”? What difference does it make? Does having the wrong idea in one’s head cancel God’s saving grace?

Well…in light is the scripture reference, you cannot be justified with this attitude.

Luke 18:10-13 KJV 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

The Pharisee was only “going through the motions” (presumably, as otherwise the lesson makes no sense) and “works” without “contrition” (faith), which would make his “works” nonsensical.

The publican was (apparently) sincere in his contrition and faith, and would be heard by God.

The obsession has to do with the answer of a Catholic to - “Do you have eternal life?”…When they boast of their keeping commandments and their good deeds…the gospel must be given.

My “Catholic” answer to “Do you have eternal life?” is: “I do if it is God’s will and I live a Christian life.”

The concept that I don’t need to do what is right in the sight of God during my life as long as I “profess as protestants do” (whatever that is, which “saves them once and forever regardless of their actions in life”) is ludicrous to me, and should be ludicrous to them.

Mahalo ke Akua.

E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha.

 

[Lazerlike42]

That is the sticking point; don’t underestimate it, or oversimplify it; it is not a small matter.

I don’t believe that at any given point in one’s life, he is ever anymore justified than he is at the moment he first believes; that is the gift of eternal life; one is also fully sanctified at that point in the strict sense of being set apart; however, there is also a practical aspect to sanctification, realized and worked out in fear and trembling, in the distance traveled between first believing, and ending in the grave; it is that travel between those two points that is sanctification in which the believer grows in holiness and knowledge, through obedience and works.

The works I do will be rewarded, if they pass muster; if they don’t pass muster, they will not be rewarded, but I will still be saved.

Salvation is the gift; salvation is not a reward.

This is the sticking point indeed. There are many reasons Catholics disagree with the understanding you have presented. One is simply that if we believe justification is a one time, binary, either/or state, then James 2:24 becomes a real problem. None of the agruments that he is talking about being justified before men hold up, because among other things there were no men for him to be justified before. The arguments that he means works come from a saving faith don’t hold up, because among other things James says that Abraham’s works were “active along with” his faith. The idea that a sinner can be justified before God because of what he has done is contrary to all sorts of Scripture passages, and there isn’t really anyone that would even suggest this today other than a few pelagian remnants here and there. The only thing that makes sense of the passage is to look at justification as something that can be increased, an idea which also makes sense of a lot of passages in St. Paul.

This idea gains even more weight when viewed in light of much of St. Paul and Jesus’ teaching. Jesus spoke a lot about people being rewarded with eternal life. St. Paul teaches in Romans 2 that eternal life is a reward for " patience in well-doing." In fact, what makes this passage even more indicative of the Catholic interpretation of James 2:24 is that St. Paul is writing to people who are already believers. For them, because they are already in faith and saved by Grace, good works can, according to the Catholic understanding, be rewarded with eternal life. St. Paul teaches the same idea in Colossians, saying, " Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ" (3:23-24). Now ‘the inheritance’ is one of St. Paul’s more common ways of referring to eternal life, such as when he uses phrases like “inherite the kingdom of God.” He refers to the “inheritance” in referring to what we gain by faith in Christ in places such as Galatians 3:18, Ephesians 1:11-18, and Colossians 1:12.

2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.

 

[NotWorthy]

Can you show me in that passage in Matt. 25 where Christ is talking about “lost” sheep? And does not a good shepherd seek even after his sheep that are lost (Lk. 15:4-6)?Yes, but those works cannot save you. According to Scripture one is saved on a completely different principle - "by grace through faith.“Or you never had a “Faith” that saves.Only in that faith can be demonstrated by works, but works can never save. Salvation is always based on one’s faith in Christ alone:"through whom we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand…” (Rom. 5:1-2).

No, I was referring to the sheep lost earlier in Matthew. When they are found, there is great rejoicing.

I never claimed that our works can save us. There are no works that can merit heaven. Our works help to store up our riches in heaven.

I would put it two different ways: “Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can blow it”.

And, “Our good works can not merit our salvation, but they are necessary to preserve our Salvation.”.

Any Catholics can correct me if I’m wrong here. And, of course, any Non-Catholics comments are always welcome.