"Works" Salvation?

[apophasis]

As opposed to the common Protestant phenomenon of “getting saved” again and again because of doubts that it really took.

But at least this man is assured of salvation:

amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/1877733075

Assurance of salvation is never based on subjective doubts but the objective, revealed Word of God - centered on the cross of Christ. What I’ve often found is when a Prostestant believer’s erroneous thinking in regards to grace and the cross of Christ is corrected he subsequently settles in to an assured peace concerning his salvation. A Catholic, on the other hand, often continues to repudiate that grace desiring rather to cling to “works of righteousness”:Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"

 

[apophasis]

This is all some man’s theology based upon cherry picked passages from the Bible. Notice that you never see any of these preachers speak on Matthew 25:31-46, where Our Lord very plainly tells the people that they will be judged based upon what they have and have not done during their lives and not merely on some profession of faith that was made at some point in their life. In fact… Christ repudiates that Christianity Lite that asserts that our works are without merit in this same passage saying that He may well say to them that He never knew them.Actually, in Matt. 25 He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” Being “sheep” they were already saved (obviously through faith). The works were done because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him:John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"Notice, He knows them. They’re His sheep. A shepherd knows his sheep.

 

[VociMike]

Assurance of salvation is never based on subjective doubts but the objective, revealed Word of God - centered on the cross of Christ.

You avoided giving your opinion on this man (which isn’t uncommon - I’ve never gotten an OSAS believer to deal with his case yet). Is he saved or isn’t he? Why or why not? At one time he certainly thought he was saved, and all those around him thought he was saved. If he was wrong, anybody could be wrong. If he was right, then what?

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Assurance of salvation is never based on subjective doubts but the objective, revealed Word of God - centered on the cross of Christ. What I’ve often found is when a Prostestant believer’s erroneous thinking in regards to grace and the cross of Christ is corrected he subsequently settles in to an assured peace concerning his salvation. A Catholic, on the other hand, often continues to repudiate that grace desiring rather to cling to "works of righteousness

Which Catholics have you been talking to? If a Catholic is in the least bit informed about his faith he will tell you that it is all Grace. Grace allows us to have faith. Grace allows that faith to come alive through works (see James 2). The Church teaches that we are saved through Grace, and that we cooperate with that saving Grace by our faith and works.

When you say a Catholic often says this, that or the other thing it really makes no difference what some random misinformed Catholic often says. If you disagree with the teaching of the Church–fine. But, don’t use the mistakes of some individual Catholic’s misunderstanding, or a generalization about what you think Catholics believe to challenge us.

 

[apophasis]

That quote from the Catechism is right one and in no way “works” salvation. Works salvation is seeking God through your personal good works like those in Matthew 25:41-46 where the condemned because what they “did” was either for their own glory or they didn’t obey the moral law of Christ. Works salvation is a heresy called pelagianism or semi-pelagianism that the Catholic Church condemned in the 6th century. Calling Catholicisms theology “works salvation” is nothing new. The Church dealt with that heresy back in 529 AD at the council of Orange…
CANON 18. That grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.
CANON 19. That a man can be saved only when God shows mercy. Human nature, even though it remained in that sound state in which it was created, could be no means save itself, without the assistance of the Creator; hence since man cannot safe- guard his salvation without the grace of God, which is a gift, how will he be able to restore what he has lost without the grace of God?
CANON 20. That a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; **but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it. **

But based on Scripture salvation is never based even on works a man performs, even works enabled by God to perform (Eph. 2:8-9). What separates man from God is sin, not lack of works (Heb. 1:3). Works may follow a sin-cleansed man who has put his faith in the word concerning the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of Christ on his behalf (the word of the cross), but even those "enabled works" are not the basis on which he was saved. Sin was always the issue, not works - whether an abundance of them or lack of them.

 

[heisenburg]

What separates man from God is sin, not lack of works

Catch…

Isn’t it a sin NOT to do what he asks of us? Doesn’t Christ call people who profess him, but do not do what they are suppose to hypocrites? Doesn’t he Deny those that only Believed, but never did his will?

I’d like to point you to the following verse: Numbers 15:31 as well as the surrounding versus Notice how it says that if you do NOT follow his commandments, or intentionally disobey His will, you are blasphemous to the lord and should be cut off.

If God created us for good works… (eph 2:9) yet we do not do those good works, how can we still say we are saved. Notice also, that the person isnt Cut Off until AFTER they disobey. Also, how can you be cut off, if you were never part of it to begin with?

In Christ

PS: do you know what the new testament says about those that Blaspheme the HS?

 

[apophasis]

Just go back and read Ephesians 2:8-10 and get a real good grip on verse 10. Once you’ve done that you’ll get it.

I’ve read it - I got it. I have been saved by grace through faith.

The works performed in verse 10 are by those who are already “created in Christ Jesus” - who are “God’s workmanship.” It is the already “saved by grace through faith” in Christ’s work on their behalf that are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” never BY those good works.

I get it…it’s all right there. Salvation is never based on our works of any kind. Only His.

 

[sandusky]

Church Militant:

In the context of the rest of the CCC and Catholic teaching…there is no confusion…no controversy…no “mixed messages”.

To the confusion, the controversy, the mixed messages, and inconsistencies already mentioned add the inconsistency of losing justification/salvation through mortal sin; if one can lose his right-standing with God based upon his performance, how is that not works-based salvation?

 

[sandusky]

VociMike:

You avoided giving your opinion on this man (which isn’t uncommon - I’ve never gotten an OSAS believer to deal with his case yet). Is he saved or isn’t he? Why or why not? At one time he certainly thought he was saved, and all those around him thought he was saved. If he was wrong, anybody could be wrong. If he was right, then what?

Mike, I have responded to you about that on the three separate occasions; amember?

 

[apophasis]

The word “merit” in Catholic theology comes from the Latin word meritum which means “reward” NOT strict earning, only Jesus Christ can earn any good in the strict sense. We earn merit (reward) more grace as we cooperate with God’s grace, 1 Cor 3:9, 2 Cor 6:1, Romans 8:28 so you are using the word “merit” as a strict earning definition which ONLY applies to Christ Jesus.

“Merit” is a Catholic term, not a Biblical one. Rewards are given to the saved, but salvation is never portrayed as a “reward” in Scripture.

Also, that one is saved in a punctiliar only fashion, then absolutey assured of salvation is anti-thetical to Scripture Matthew 10:22" if you endure to the end to be saved"
Notice is says “if” which is a conditional statement.

And have you yet gone through the cities of Israel (vs. 23)? And you must continue to go through those cities of Israel UNTIL the Son of Man comes. Good luck on that kind of salvation.

Are you familiar with the word “context?”
Not everything in the Bible is written about you.

 

[Tom]

The “works” you are illustrating in Romans (Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.) are works” of the Law” not works of Christian charity. Works of the Law are those things required to be a Jew, they have nothing to do with the “works” (deeds) our Lord Jesus the Christ has instructed us to do or “works” we do for one another because we are all brothers.
When you read the writings of Paul, his references to “works” are works of the Law, and he is absolutely correct that you don’t need to do “works” of the Law to follow Christ. Paul isn’t saying you don’t need to do any “works” of Christian charity, he’s saying you don’t need to do “works” of the Law.
Works of Christian charity and works of the Law are two quite different issues.
Works:
Matthew 5 (The eight beatitudes): 14 - 19
Matthew 11,2
Matthew 16,
Matthew 23,1-5
Mark 6,2
Mark 6,14
Luke 10,13
Luke 19,37
John 3,19 –
John 5,20
John 5,36
John 6,28
John 7,3-7
John 8,39
John 8,41
John 9,3
John 9,4
John 10,25-38
John 14,10 -12
John 15,24
Acts Of Apostles 2,11
Acts Of Apostles 9,36
Acts Of Apostles 26,20
Romans 2,6
2 Corinthians 11,15

Works of the Law:
Romans 3,20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3,27 Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3,28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.
Romans 4,2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. Same epistle (Romans), speaking of works of the Law
Romans 4,6 As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputeth justice without works (of the Law):
Romans 9,12 Not of works (of the Law), but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9,32 Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works(of the Law). For they stumbled at the stumblingstone.
Romans 11,6 And if by grace, it is not now by works(of the Law): otherwise grace is no more grace.
Romans 13,12 The night is passed, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore cast off the works(of the Law) of darkness, and put on the armour of light.
Galatians 2,16 But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Galatians 3,2 This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3,5 He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?
Galatians 3,10 For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Galatians 5,19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,
Ephesians 2,9 Not of works(of the Law), that no man may glory.

 

[apophasis]

Furthermore, Jesus said if you don’t “obey” the commadments (Mt 19:16-19) by faith then you will not receive eternal life.

The man asked, “what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life.” Jesus quoted from the Decalogue. The obvious answer is there is nothing he can do since he cannot do any of those things perfectly. In fact, they can only condemn him (2 Cor. 3:6-11; cf. Rom. 7:7-25).

Paul speaks of the “obedience of faith” in Romans 1:5 and 16:26 as sort of book end statements; both are coupled together and BOTH are needed for salvation.

Yes, “obedience of FAITH.”

The message this side of the cross is not what good things we can do for eternal life, but what GREAT thing Christ has done to procure eternal life for all who believe (Jn. 3:14-18).

 

[heisenburg]

if one can lose his right-standing with God based upon his performance, how is that not works-based salvation

Greatings Apop and Bishop

As mentioned, we are not, nor are we ever ‘saved’ based on what we do… However, NOT doing what he says is a sin. so ultimately, it is not the lack of work that separates us, it is the Sin that results from the lack of Christian work that separates us.

And yes, you can be separated from God. As mentioned, Anyone who Blasphemes the Holy Spirit is cut off and No Sacrifice is Left!

I think everyone, even OSASers agree with that. The problem is, what is defined as a Blaspheme against the HS. I’ve heard some extreme OSASers as saying it means you have to publicly and verbally declare this rejection… Ok Fine, thats one way. The bible does define it more clearly, as mentioned in Numbers… He who intentionally does NOT follow HIS will has Blasphemed the Lord.

If I intentionally do not do his will, that means I blaspheme the lord, If I blaspheme the Lord, I am Seperated and No Sacrifice remains. If I am separated with no sacrifice remaining, I am not, nor will ever be saved again. No matter how many times I confess that sin without the aide of an Intercessor. … Thank the Lord for the Sacrament of Confession!

In Christ

 

[Mannyfit75]

To the confusion, the controversy, the mixed messages, and inconsistencies already mentioned add the inconsistency of losing justification/salvation through mortal sin; if one can lose his right-standing with God based upon his performance, how is that not works-based salvation?

How can it be confusion? I have read the Catholic Catechism many times, and there isn’t anything that is confusing about it. It maybe difficult to understand from a Non-Catholic Christian because they lack any formal understanding of Catholicism doctrines especially in the lines of salvation and justification.

Mortal sin came out of 1 John 5:16-17 , where John wrote that there is a sin that is deadly and not deadly.

16. If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

If you break this passage down. John speaks of a sin that is deadly? It is mortal sin. It takes away the sancifying grace that we gain in from our Christian baptism (Yes baptism does save see 1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ). But that is another topic.

Let us move on with the current topic. How is sin deadly? It destroys the grace which we merit in our Christian baptism. By commiting sinful acts such as fornication or abortion, the grace is gone. It can be only regain through repentance with a contrite heart.

If we read 1 John 5:17, All wrong doing is sin, but there is a sin that is not deadly. A sin that is not deadly is venial. It doesn’t remove the grace which we earn by Christian baptism. To illustrate my point, when a man robs 65 million dollars, it is a serious matter. He gets a longer sentence. A man who steals a candy bar will likely get a lighter sentence. As we can see, not all crime are the same.

Likewise, in mortal and venial sin it also works in the same way. When one commits an abortion it is more serious than a someone who makes a white lie.

Where do people who die in mortal sin go? Hell. How about venial sin? They go to a third place Purgatory, where their souls are purged. Remember nothing impure can enter into heaven.

Let us take a look at the Scripture concerning a place of purification.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59

POINTS IN THE PASSAGES: Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48

POINTS OF THE PASSAGES: Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32

POINTS IN THE PASSAGES:– Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Actually, in Matt. 25 He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” Being “sheep” they were already saved (obviously through faith). The works were done because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him:John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"Notice, He knows them. They’re His sheep. A shepherd knows his sheep.

Christ’s Church are the sheep. Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church. This passage explains the relationship between the Catholic Church and the protestant churches.

 

[Church_Militant]

Yeah yeah yeah…same old same old…you guys wish the Catholic Church actually taught this so them maybe you’d have something to really argue over.

The problem isn’t that we disagree with the Bible at all…it’s that we disagree with the 500 year old false interpretations of the reformers and their step children.

 

[sandusky]

Tom:

The “works” you are illustrating in Romans (Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.) are works” of the Law” not works of Christian charity. Works of the Law are those things required to be a Jew, they have nothing to do with the “works” (deeds) our Lord Jesus the Christ has instructed us to do or “works” we do for one another because we are all brothers.
When you read the writings of Paul, his references to “works” are works of the Law, and he is absolutely correct that you don’t need to do “works” of the Law to follow Christ. Paul isn’t saying you don’t need to do any “works” of Christian charity, he’s saying you don’t need to do “works” of the Law.

No definite article appears in Rom 3:20 which states, by works of law shall no flesh…, ie., any law—God-given, or man-made.

Was Abe justified while circumcised, or uncircumcised? Was Abe justified before the law, or after?

 

[Tom]

No definite article appears in Rom 3:20 which states, by works of law shall no flesh…, ie., any law—God-given, or man-made.

Was Abe justified while circumcised, or uncircumcised? Was Abe justified before the law, or after?

No article? it says specifically “of the Law”. It’s referring to works “of the Law”.

 

[VociMike]

Mike, I have responded to you about that on the three separate occasions; amember?

No, I sure don’t. Maybe the 4th time will be the charm.

 

[sandusky]

No article? it says specifically “of the Law”. It’s referring to works “of the Law”.

Not in the Greek.