"Works" Salvation?

[apophasis]

It’s the “what” that is being GIVEN that we might be disagreeing about.

To me, He’s given you the OFFER of salvation.

To you (as far as I can see), He’s given you actual salvation.

Tell me where I’m mistaken…?

Yes, upon personal belief in Christ (His Person and work on your behalf) He actually saves you. Paul writes in the Ephesian letter:“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).In Rom. 11:29 he writes:"…for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"Really, Keikiolu, you can’t get any clearer than that. Salvation is offered by God, but in a propositional message concerning His Son. It’s Him you must accept or reject since you can offer nothing of your own.1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."Is God true or is He a liar? The “offer” is to come by faith to the Son. You can “offer” nothing of your own.

 

[geezerbob]

Please read the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, and tell us what part of that you don’t understand. Our Savior Himself tells us what is required of us in the way of works and what the penalty is for failing to perform those works. Some of the theology propounded here sounds like Paul is the Word, not Jesus Christ. When misunderstandings arise, go back to the Source for clarification. Jesus’ words are very clear.

 

[NotWorthy]

Please read the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, and tell us what part of that you don’t understand. Our Savior Himself tells us what is required of us in the way of works and what the penalty is for failing to perform those works. Some of the theology propounded here sounds like Paul is the Word, not Jesus Christ. When misunderstandings arise, go back to the Source for clarification. Jesus’ words are very clear.

This has been addressed earlier on in the thread.

You’re going to LOVE their interpretation of it. It’s quite original, I must add. Go back and look and get back with us.

 

[Milliardo]

Actually, in Matt. 25 He separates the “sheep” from the “goats.” Being “sheep” they were already saved (obviously through faith). The works were done because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him:

Actually, no. Nowhere in the passage does it specifically say that the sheep were only the ones who accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. You would have to stretch the passage out of its proper context to achieve that. Conversely we can say that the goats were believers as well, since they asked Him where did they see Him in prison, etc. The parables before this Judgment scene is actually more telling, especially the one about the bridesmaidens. They were part of the wedding entourage–the foolish and the wise ones. This would be akin to them already having faith and being invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb. However, the foolish ones brought no oil with them; their faith, as it is, were empty. They then ask the wise ones for some oil, but they respond that they should go buy for themselves (and inevitably knocking down the much-cherished notion that salvation cannot be “bought”). While the foolish ones were off, the groom came, the feast was held, and the foolish ones were locked out. When they came, they asked to be entered, yet the groom sent them away, for He did not recognized them. Well, so much for sola fide…

 

[heisenburg]

Apop…

May the lord bless you…

With respect, I answered your questions… And the answers I gave you are valid. Simply because you do not agree with my understanding does not mean it is incorrect unless you are saying you are perfectly reading scripture. Hopefully, you are not that prideful.

But I will reiterate… Christ Says he who believes in him will have eternal life before judgment will have eternal life…

Translation… If you believe you will do what he says, if you don’t do what he says, you say by your actions you do not believe him… You underline the “before judgment” Well, of course its before judgment. Anyone who has been judged obviously believes as they have stood before him, their time is up…

If all we really have to do is believe, why then are our actions and thoughts the only thing ever talked about as being judged?

Again, this logic of “you were never saved to begin with” not accurate as there are countless verses that would no longer make sense…

ie
Why Hope for what you already have
Why run the race to the end if its already been won
Why persevere if you already attained
Why are we to continue working out our salvation with fear and trembling
How can you be cut off from something you were never a part of.
How can there be no more sacrifice, you haven’t accepted the sacrifice yet…
Why are we judged again after death if we have already been assured?

None of these verses make sense based on the logic espoused…

Yes you can loose what you have been given. The bible speaks of this frequently.

It is obvious you do not wish to answer the question. Why? I don’t know. But I have answered your questions. Even if you don’t agree with my answer, all i ask is that you respect that I did answer it.

If you dont want to answer it, OK, no problem. But then, ask your self this… What is OSAS parallel in the OT. I can show you the Catholic Parallel but I know of no parallel for OSAS. Why is this important? because the OT is the shadow of the New… If OSAS is such a key to salvation, where is its shadow?

I will pray for you Apop as I know you are merely trying to spread His word. But please, examine your fruits.

In Christ

 

[guanophore]

Based on what you answered above it is evident you cannot correlate what Jesus states in Jn. 5:24 with your claim of a future judgment to determne one’s salvation"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."I asked if you, a RC, are not assured of salvation, as you say, UNTIL “your day of judgment,” on what basis then (at that future judgment) will your salvation be determined? You failed to answer this question.If you are not assured salvation UNTIL your “day of judgment” then you’re not truly saved UNTIL then (if you are at all). So how can you lose something you never actually had in the first place? And again, how does this future “day of judgment” which determines one’s salvation correlate with what Jesus said in Jn. 5:24? Please be specific!I will answer this question when you properly answer mine.

I just want to check something, Apo. Can you please enumerate what you believe the Catholic position on salvation is? I know you have had this told to you numerous times, and you don’t share it, but I am curious if you can articulate it properly. I cannot be sure if you are just refusing to accept it, or if you just don’t understand it. If you can articulate it, then I will be satisfied that you are just rejecting it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Salvation as a past event

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:4-5)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Salvation as an ongoing activity

---

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)

Salvation as a future event

And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgement.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

Why Hope for what you already have
Why run the race to the end if its already been won
Why persevere if you already attained
Why are we to continue working out our salvation with fear and trembling
How can you be cut off from something you were never a part of.
How can there be no more sacrifice, you haven’t accepted the sacrifice yet…
Why are we judged again after death if we have already been assured?

None of these verses make sense based on the logic espoused…

So, the commands of scripture, in order for you to believe them, must fit your logical and rational understanding before you’ll submit them, is that right?

Give me a logical and rational reasoning of how, and why one must eat the flesh and blood of Jesus to have life in themselves, please.

 

[heisenburg]

Good Morning to You Sand…

Logic is not subjective to a persons opinion. It is a mathematical set of constructs designed to test the validity of an argument, not the content of the argument, but if the argument is logically correct…

But, to be fair to your request, I will test the logic. Please, forgive me if I come of as cocky in my response, not the intent, Talking about Logic can be very blunt and uninspiring

A is Unknown to be true or false
Given B and C are true

If A contradicts B or C, then A cannot be true

If A Is true, B and C must be false,

Since B and C must be True, then A must be False

A - Once we are saved, we are always saved, and nothing we can do will change it. - unknown
B - You will be Cut off if you do not produce fruit - Known to be true
c - You must run the race to the end - known to be true

If A is True,
how can B be true as once A is true, B cannot happen
How can C be true as once A is true, B is no longer needed

If B and C are assured to be true, but cannot be true if A is true, then this must mean that A is false.

Simple Logic… Not Perspective…

In response to your how can eating flesh be true…

It is a continuation of the Sacrifice from the OT… A sacrifice must be given, and the sacrifice must be eaten. BOTH are required for the sacrifice to be complete. Remember. OT is the Shadow if the New. The law is also still applicable, but Christ fulfills the law, it was Never abolished

Christ is sacrificed Once, we then partake in eating the sacrifice through the Eucharist.

Test the Logic
A - We must literally eat the Body and Blood of Christ - Unknown

Known True
B - The OT is Shadowed by the New
C - Law is still valid
D - The Eating was a Literal Act in the OT

If A is true then B is be true. Parallels in Both
If A and B are true, C is be true.
if A,B, and C are true, the D is be true

If A is False, or meant as symbolic, then B can possible be true, but can also be false
if A is False and B is true, then C is more than likely false, but could in theory be true
If A is false and B and C are true, then D cannot be true, as it is not Literal and the Law required Literal eating…

since D cannot be true, then the argument falls apart, and A must be True and not False

Hope that Helps

In Christ

 

[kaycee]

A sacrament is an oath, that is what the word means, and yes it is a means of grace.

Whatever you mean by mixed grace I have no idea, but you avoided the simple question I asked and instead decided to inject and attack on the church.

Just trying to show the different understandings of Grace. How you thought this was an attack, I havent got a clue.

Treasury of Merit - the infinite riches obtained by the true merit of Christ’s work on the cross. God freely grants us the privilege of contributing our own works to this Treasury. Catholics believe that the Holy Virgin Mary is the most important contributor next to Christ to the Treasury of Merit.

gathman.org/class/words.html

Of course we know that for example that protestants don’t believe in the oath (sacrament of marriage) and there is no grace involved in marraige. I do remember 1 Timothy remarking on this:

1 Tim 4:1: Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2: through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared,
3: who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

So care to address the question I posed about grace. Is there one kind of grace? (gift from God)

There are different aspects of Grace, salvation, santification, forgiveness, etc…

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

Good Morning to You Sand…

Logic is not subjective to a persons opinion. It is a mathematical set of constructs designed to test the validity of an argument, not the content of the argument, but if the argument is logically correct…

But, to be fair to your request, I will test the logic. Please, forgive me if I come of as cocky in my response, not the intent, Talking about Logic can be very blunt and uninspiring

A is Unknown to be true or false
Given B and C are true

If A contradicts B or C, then A cannot be true

If A Is true, B and C must be false,

Since B and C must be True, then A must be False

A - Once we are saved, we are always saved, and nothing we can do will change it. - unknown
B - You will be Cut off if you do not produce fruit - Known to be true
c - You must run the race to the end - known to be true

If A is True,
how can B be true as once A is true, B cannot happen
How can C be true as once A is true, B is no longer needed

If B and C are assured to be true, but cannot be true if A is true, then this must mean that A is false.

Simple Logic… Not Perspective…

In response to your how can eating flesh be true…

It is a continuation of the Sacrifice from the OT… A sacrifice must be given, and the sacrifice must be eaten. BOTH are required for the sacrifice to be complete. Remember. OT is the Shadow if the New. The law is also still applicable, but Christ fulfills the law, it was Never abolished

Christ is sacrificed Once, we then partake in eating the sacrifice through the Eucharist.

Test the Logic
A - We must literally eat the Body and Blood of Christ - Unknown

Known True
B - The OT is Shadowed by the New
C - Law is still valid
D - The Eating was a Literal Act in the OT

If A is true then B is be true. Parallels in Both
If A and B are true, C is be true.
if A,B, and C are true, the D is be true

If A is False, or meant as symbolic, then B can possible be true, but can also be false
if A is False and B is true, then C is more than likely false, but could in theory be true
If A is false and B and C are true, then D cannot be true, as it is not Literal and the Law required Literal eating…

since D cannot be true, then the argument falls apart, and A must be True and not False

Hope that Helps

In Christ

It doesn’t help at all heisenburg; I think that you are deliberately being obtuse.

If you are going to correspond the Passover to the Lord’s Supper in such a way as to insist that it is necessary to eat His flesh, and drink His blood, where in the original sacrifice did the participants drink the blood of the sacrifice?

What did they do with the blood?

Why don’t you do that?

The point is that eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ seems illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it, and you do it because you believe that you have been told to do it, and you do it on the basis of faith.

 

[kaycee]

And the million dollar answer is:

2 Pet 1:9: For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his past sins.

Rom 3:25: whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;

Why do you contradict the word of God?

hmmm
“But if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) does all only mean past?

“‘THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM’, He then says, 'AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.’” (Hebrews 10:16-17)

"As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us."
(Psalm 103:12)

**“I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.” **(Isaiah 43:25)

So, you would say baptism saves us initially, then confession and penance are necessary for future forgiveness of sins, correct?

Cough Pelagianism. “My works, not Gods.” You reaching out through your own effort instead of acknowledging God as the source of works and it is because of his grace.

While certainly God graces us with the ability to do good works. Who is held accountable when the christian does not cooperate and do these good works?

 

[heisenburg]

I think that you are deliberately being obtuse

Maybe Not deliberately, but its possible

Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the passover sacrifice, But the Levitical Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. In the OT the blood was not used…

However, it is not a stretch primarily because Christ said Eat and Drink. This isn’t a reversal of the Sacrifice, but an extension.

Using it as a symbol is a reversal.

Christ is God… if thats what he wants… Fine with me.

Anyway… There is a logical component to it, and thats what I provided. There are far more areas in the bible that support it as well. but yes, Faith that it will happen is there as well. I don’t deny that. But it is a Faith that Jesus Meant Literal when he said Eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood…

Peace to You Sand

In Christ

 

[I_Leatherman]

sandusky:

The point is that eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ seems illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it, and you do it because you believe that you have been told to do it, and you do it on the basis of faith.

“…The point is that eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ seems illogical, and irrational …”[53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?]

“…and yet you do it …” [Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?]

"…and you do it because you believe that you have been told to do it, and you do it on the basis of faith " [Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. ]

Seems clear to me!

 

[sandusky]

geezerbob:

Please read the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31, and tell us what part of that you don’t understand. Our Savior Himself tells us what is required of us in the way of works and what the penalty is for failing to perform those works. Some of the theology propounded here sounds like Paul is the Word, not Jesus Christ. When misunderstandings arise, go back to the Source for clarification. Jesus’ words are very clear.

You are told what is required of you earlier in Mt 22:39; you are to love your neighbor as yourself; but here, the judgment is not based on random acts of kindness alone, but the recipients of this kindness are the least of these brothers of mine (40; v 45). This phrase suggests that it is not just anyone that the righteous have helped and the others have ignored: those who were helped were disciples in need. There is a distinctly Christian aspect to this judgment. The Lord is concerned with the poor, but here He is much more concerned with rewarding those who belong to Him, who have cared for others of those who belong to Him.

 

[apophasis]

Apop…

May the lord bless you…

With respect, I answered your questions…

Not really, you danced around them.

If all we really have to do is believe, why then are our actions and thoughts the only thing ever talked about as being judged?

Because based on them there are future rewards and based on them there is presently divine discipline. But neither of them determine one’s salvation now or later.

Again, this logic of “you were never saved to begin with” not accurate as there are countless verses that would no longer make sense…

ie
Why Hope for what you already have

It’s a living hope, not somthing "hoped for.

"Why run the race to the end if its already been won

For the glory of Christ, not for salvation.

Why persevere if you already attained

For the glory of Christ and to fulfill the commandment to walk according to our calling.

Why are we to continue working out our salvation with fear and trembling

We are to “work out” our salvation, not “work for” it. “Fear and trembling” is an ancient axiom for humility. See Phil. 2:12 in the context of 2:4-8.

How can you be cut off from something you were never a part of.

Good question!

How can there be no more sacrifice, you haven’t accepted the sacrifice yet…

Exactly: THE sacrifice. There is no other for salvation.

Why are we judged again after death if we have already been assured?

The only future judgment for true believers is “the judgment seat of Christ.” There his deeds done in this body are appraised and rewarded - he himself is not judged for Christ was judged, once for all, in his stead.

None of these verses make sense based on the logic espoused…

None of it will ever make sense if one fails to fully understand the cross of Christ.

 

[sandusky]

"…The point is that eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ seems illogical, and irrational …"[53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat?]

“…and yet you do it …” [Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it?]

"…and you do it because you believe that you have been told to do it, and you do it on the basis of faith " [Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. ]

Seems clear to me!

heisenburg:

Maybe Not deliberately, but its possible

Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the passover sacrifice, But the Levitical Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. In the OT the blood was not used…

However, it is not a stretch primarily because Christ said Eat and Drink. This isn’t a reversal of the Sacrifice, but an extension.

Using it as a symbol is a reversal.

Christ is God… if thats what he wants… Fine with me.

Anyway… There is a logical component to it, and thats what I provided. There are far more areas in the bible that support it as well. but yes, Faith that it will happen is there as well. I don’t deny that. But it is a Faith that Jesus Meant Literal when he said Eat my Flesh and Drink my Blood…

You miss the point, I Leatherman, and heisenburg.

Eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ is illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it.

You understand the process of practical sanctification with conformity to the image of Christ as its goal, and yet you reject the scriptural command to the elect to persevere to the end on the basis that the command renders other verses without “sense.”

Why?

 

[heisenburg]

You Know what Apop…

Ive answered your questions, I’ve reexplained… explained deeper it deeper each time…

I don’t think you want my answer, you just want me to agree with you. I haven’t danced, and have been very strait forward. I have explained 3 times now to you, going deeper each time. yet you insist I have not answered. I don’t think you will say i have “answered” your question until it is the same one you believe…

Thats not the way this works… You asked me a question, i asked you a question…

I answered your question, you chose to refuse my answer because you didn’t like it. And therefore, you refuse to even touch my question. I find it peculiar that you were so quick to answer my scripture complaints against OSAS… especially when I asked how someone could be cut off from something they never had…

Scripture says people were cut off from the Vine. That means they were part of the vine… According to you, they were never part of the vine to begin with… And THAT is exactly the opposite of what the bible teaches. “Good Question!” is not an answer…

I Claim what the Bible Teaches… Faith and Obedience to the Faith…
If you want to claim that you don’t have to obedient… Ill pray for the conversion of your soul.

By the way, the reward IS heaven… it is not extra big houses in Heaven because you did X. How can you add to the infinite riches god provides those that properly followed his word. We are judged to see if we follow him… not to see how much money he will put in our bank account. That makes salvation “me” centric and it is suppose to be God centric.

Infinity + 1 is still infinity…

When you are ready to talk, come back… If you want to keep refusing my questions… fine, go talk to someone that wants to play your head game. I answer your questions over and over. Directly. You just don’t like what I have to say. Sounds more like a stubborn child to me.

Personally, i think its really sad. Ill keep you in my prayers.

In Christ

 

[sandusky]

heisenburg:

Anyway, I wasn’t talking about the passover sacrifice, But the Levitical Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. In the OT the blood was not used…

I didn’t bring up the eucharist to get off topic, but to make a point, so I’ll make this final point, and we can get back to the OP; the blood was used, in fact, it was given for atonement
(Lev 17:11), and poured onto the altar.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You miss the point, I Leatherman, and heisenburg.

Eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ is illogical, and irrational, and yet you do it.

You understand the process of practical sanctification with conformity to the image of Christ as its goal, and yet you reject the scriptural command to the elect to persevere to the end on the basis that the command renders other verses without “sense.”

Why?

Don’t we have a thread on John 6 already?