"Works" Salvation?

[dessert]

I’m sorry that you read pomposity into my statement. I actually said it with great grief in my heart. I have yet to find, nor have shown on this thread, any official RC document that teaches the positional aspect of sanctification that Paul teaches in his Epistles, and was commanded to him to reveal to the Gentiles by Christ Himself in the Apostolic ministry He assigned to them. Shouldn’t every church teach Pauline theology?First of all I do not think the parable of the PS is at all soteriological in nature. It’s handled all within the family, between father and son. Secondly, in the parable the father relinquishes over to his son the control of his inheritance, but that is not at all what Peter reveals concerning the true believer’s inheritance in Christ:1 Pet 1:3-5 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, {to obtain} an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.Thirdly, it is clearly seen in the parable that although the son squandered his inheritance (not a direct parallel to the believer’s eternal inheritance in Christ), what could not be thrown away recklessly was his status of sonship. It was a right of birth:John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,”

Rom 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”"An extremely powerful aspect of salvation is the true believer’s adoption to the status of sonship. It’s part of being “born again” not through baptism but through personal faith in Christ. What we learn from the parable of the PS is the father’s unconditional love for his son and was always ready to receive him back into fellowship. He never disowned him. Now what is pitiful, is the jealous reaction of the other son. There’s much to be learned about him, don’t you think?.

Yes isn’t it wonderful he received the gift of repentance!
He reconciled with his father!
He was back in communion with his father and the brother and the family.
I think his brother was somewhat but also happy to see him.

200; How are sins remitted?
The first and chief sacrament for the forgiveness of sins is Baptism. For those sins committed after Baptism, Christ instituted the sacrament of Reconciliation or Penance through which a baptized person is reconciled with God and with the Church.

201; Why does the Church have the power to forgive sins?
The Church has the mission and the power to forgive sins because Christ himself conferred it uppon her; “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (John 20; 22-23).

Compendium

The father didn’t go chacing after the whinny son did he?
But he probably warned him.

462; Are family bonds an absolute good?
Family ties are important but not absolute, because the first vocation of a Christian is to follow Jesus and love him; “He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matt 10; 37). Parents must support with joy their children’s choice to follow Jesus in whatever state of life, even in the consecrated life oor the priestly ministry.

Do you think this was the younger son’s conversion story.

Next from WoAUs
By contrast, the older son just doesn’t realize what he has. He has been with his father many years; yet ironically, he finds himself envying his brother’s happiness. We may identify with him, too. We may have had a powerful conversion once, and experienced much joy and freedom. But now we are struggling to find joy in the christian life. We may find ourselves jealous, or even angry, at new converts who are excited by their newfound faith. In a sense we need to be “re-converted,” and to experience God’s power in our lives again.

Prayer
“Lord, I want to give my life to you in a deeper way today. Have mercy on me. Let me find a new life in you this Lent.”

“The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.”…
Psalm 103; 8
Dessert

 

[apophasis]

Truthstalker:

How do you know objectively that you are one of the elect? Could you possibly be mistaken about this?

What was the Philippian jailer told by Paul and his companions? “Believe you’re one of God’s elect and you shall be saved?” NO! But “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.” Nowhere in Scripture is anyone ever told to believe he is one of God’s elect for salvation, but to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - His Person and sacrificial work on our behalf.

Now we know that Scripture speaks differently in respect to the “elect.”

(1) National - Israel is God’s elect nation with which He made unconditional covenants and will faithfully fulfill.

(2) Angels - His elect angels are the holy ones which never fell and continue to serve Him.

(3) Men - Objectively it is the saved who are God’s elect. And the N.T. Scriptures clearly reveal to us how one is to be saved: Paul’s words to the Philippian jailer as cited above.

Not everyone who says “Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven. If you cannot be mistaken, how is that possible, being human?

Where is it revealed in Scripture that one is ever saved by calling Him lord? One is saved because he believes in the Lord," not because he calls Him lord.

If you put your faith in Christ for salvation don’t expect a follow-up letter in the mail officially welcoming you into the family of God’s elect. Nor at the moment of salvation will it be mysteriously stamped on your forehead: “SAVED.” This Church age is an age of FAITH (Gal. 3:25). Faith in God’s Word alone. We have no Temple, we have not sacrifices; as the Apostle wrote: “…for we walk by faith, not by sight.” It is God honoring when we take Him at His Word. What He said to the prophet Jeremiah has not changed (God does not change): “…for I am watching over My word to perform it” (Jer. 1:12).1 Tim 1:15 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…"Get that? Deserving FULL ACCEPTANCE. Fallible humanity is not the issue here - one’s belief in God’s infallible Word is. Until the physical return of Christ we have nothing else qualified to be called “objective.”

 

[dessert]

Yeah…! Agreeableness…! Blessings be…!

More agreeableness. Wonderful…!

I agree (AGAIN!), but I would state it as:

Salvation is ALWAYS a matter between an individual and God, and the individual is ONLY AN INDIVIDUAL within his community because it’s impossible for a person to be without a community, due to the nature of man, which is to never be “alone”.

No man is an island.

So,… we agree again…! Hoorah…!

That is God’s business (He sets the “rules”), which is not REALLY for us to know, other than what He has revealed to us.

Therefore, depending on what you believe has been revealed, you are more or less following His “rules”.

BUT,… regardless of what you believe, God makes the final judgement.

More agreeableness…! Excellent…!!

Since it’s easier to be an atheist or agnostic than to be a “believer” who chooses to “bargain” with God, most of the people who would “bargain” simply take the easier road of agnosticism or atheism.

This is actually one of the things that brought me to the Church (Catholic).

I had always been, essentialy, a pan-theist,… but slowly evolved into a deist because of “prodding” from agnostics and especially atheists. (I didn’t find them personally appealing, as people, because of what their beliefs “did” to them, and was driven “the other way”, into deism.)

As a pan-theist, my belief was that God was diffused “into” the universe.

As a deist, my belief was that God started the universe “going”, then “withdrew” to not interfere ever again.

Eventually the idea of a God who would simply “start the machinery” and never again have anything to do with His creation just sounded SILLY in the extreme.

Therefore I “slid” into God having an actual personality (3 of them I was to discover!). At this point, I “discovered” that I NEEDED a “Church” which would be universal, applying to ALL HUMAN BEINGS.

Which Church fit? Which Church specifically states that God chooses to save “his own” according to HIS “rules”, regardless of the situation of the person, if they are GOOD PEOPLE, even if they are not formally “church-goers”.

What kind of Church allows such a possibility!? The TRUE one.

THE Church…!! (Catholic)

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

:extrahappy: :bounce: :clapping: :dancing:

Welcome Welcome Welcome from Dessert

 

[Bishopite]

[apophasis;2014345]Analogies can go only so far and then we must appeal to the Word of God itself:

I agree, however you haven’t told me how you know the context nor how you know how to interpret Scripture?Thanks for bringing up this verse in 1 Peter. Notice the gift is imperishable, however, we obtain that salvation as an iheritance (which IS the Catholic model for infused righteousness) for we are sons and daughters and God jusities us as a Father; so that righteousness isn’t “just” imputed by infused into us as 1 Peter 1:3 we get an “INHERITANCE” as part of the family of God.

No one can destroy this “car,” Tiger.

No, I again disagree and so does Scripture, Romans 11:16-22

"For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. "

Here we became partakers of the “root” (which analogous to God)…the “root” supports you, God supports us.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. **Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. **Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,f] **if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. **

Notice “IF” you continue in His goodness. “If” is a conditional statement. If we destroy our grafted in root after we have believed then we will be “cut off.” If we continue then we will be saved (Mt 10:22, Mt 24:13) however “IF” we don’t continue in His goodness then we will be cut off it is “we” who cut us off from God. God will never cut us off “if” we continue in goodness.

Oh yeah, now what exactly is this “moral law” you must obey and if not destroys salvation? Please be specific.

The ten commandments
Exodus 20:5-6
“**those who love me and keep my commandments.” **

Specifically those who don’t obey the moral law are in 1 Cor 6:9-11
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Also, these are the ones who failed to obey the moral law Mt 25:41-46…
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Both of the groups in 1 Cor 6 and Mt 25 are two examples of those who don’t obey the moral law and didn’t do works of charity. In Mt 25 they did works but for their own vain glory, and did NOT do works of charity giving Jesus Christ the glory. If they had done works of charity then they would have done them as though doing them to Jesus Himself!

 

[dessert]

What was the Philippian jailer told by Paul and his companions? “Believe you’re one of God’s elect and you shall be saved?” NO! But “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.” Nowhere in Scripture is anyone ever told to believe he is one of God’s elect for salvation, but to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ - His Person and sacrificial work on our behalf.

Now we know that Scripture speaks differently in respect to the “elect.”

(1) National - Israel is God’s elect nation with which He made unconditional covenants and will faithfully fulfill.

(2) Angels - His elect angels are the holy ones which never fell and continue to serve Him.

(3) Men - Objectively it is the saved who are God’s elect. And the N.T. Scriptures clearly reveal to us how one is to be saved: Paul’s words to the Philippian jailer as cited above.Where is it revealed in Scripture that one is ever saved by calling Him lord? One is saved because he believes in the Lord," not because he calls Him lord.

If you put your faith in Christ for salvation don’t expect a follow-up letter in the mail officially welcoming you into the family of God’s elect. Nor at the moment of salvation will it be mysteriously stamped on your forehead: “SAVED.” This Church age is an age of FAITH (Gal. 3:25). Faith in God’s Word alone. We have no Temple, we have not sacrifices; as the Apostle wrote: “…for we walk by faith, not by sight.” It is God honoring when we take Him at His Word. What He said to the prophet Jeremiah has not changed (God does not change): “…for I am watching over My word to perform it” (Jer. 1:12).1 Tim 1:15 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…"Get that? Deserving FULL ACCEPTANCE. Fallible humanity is not the issue here - one’s belief in God’s infallible Word is. Until the physical return of Christ we have nothing else qualified to be called “objective.”

9; What is the full and definitive stage of God’s Revelation?
The full and definitve stage of God’s revelation is accomplished in his Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, the mediator and fullness of Revelation. He, being the only begotten Son of God made man, is the perfect and definitive Word of the Father. In the sending of the Son and the gift of the Spirit, Revelation is now fully complete, although the faith of the Church must gradually grasp its full significance over the course of centuries. Compendium

Dessert

 

[jimmy]

Where is it revealed in Scripture that one is ever saved by calling Him lord? One is saved because he believes in the Lord," not because he calls Him lord.

Actually what Jesus says toward the end of the semon on the mount in Matt7(where that text you quoted comes from) is far more significant than calling Jesus 'Lord". What they actually say goes further, ‘did we not prophecy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform miracles in your name?’ It takes faith to perform miracles and to do these things. As Christ said to them in Matt21, ‘if you have the faith of a mustardseed, you will say to this mountain be uprooted and it will cast itself into the sea.’ Miracles can not be done without faith. But with faiht you can do all sorts of miracles. In the passage in question those questioning Jesus at the judgement have the faith to perform miracles and to cast out demons and to prophecy.

What is necessary for salvation? Jesus answers this, ‘he that does the will of my father in heaven, he shall enter the kingdom of heaven.’

There is no contradiction of faith and works. They are not something to be pitted against eachother. The end of Matt6 is very telling of what faith is. Jesus says, ‘seek ye first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these things shall be yours as well. Therefore be not anxious about the future for the future will be anxious for itself. Let the days own troubles be sufficient for the day.’ Faith is a trust that God will provide you with the strength to overcome. It is the trust that God will give you what you need. Therefore you abandon the future to His loving providence and the past to His infinite mercy and you live for God now. Works act in conjunction with your faith and they complete it. I abandon the future troubles I may go through and I suffer now for God. I do what I am called to do in the present. Faith and works are intimately bonded and they can not be seperated. There can be no salvation if they are seperated in a persons life. You are called to believe and be faithfull.

 

[guanophore]

I actually said it with great grief in my heart.  I have yet to find, nor have shown on this thread, any official RC document that teaches the *positional* aspect of *sanctification* that Paul teaches in his Epistles, and was commanded to him to reveal to the Gentiles by Christ Himself in the Apostolic ministry He assigned to them.  *Shouldn't* every church teach Pauline theology?

If that is your personal opinion, why are you on this thread? Why are you putting your heart to great grief? If you believe that you should be in a church that teaches Pauline theology, then you should prefer that one, (or start one, as you are good at it)

No, every church should not teach Pauline theology only. The Catholic Church teaches what Jesus taught. Yes, we recognize that Jesus revealed Himself to Paul, and gave Paul a special mission. However, we do not embrace his understanding only, but balance it with what Jesus said himself, and what the other apostles and early fathers have taught. Why would you assume that Paul had the “whole” teaching of God? Do you not think that Jesus said some unique things?

First of all I do not think the parable of the PS is at all soteriological in nature.

You did not answer my question. If the prodigal never returned, would he have lost his inheritance?

 

[jimmy]

I actually said it with great grief in my heart. I have yet to find, nor have shown on this thread, any official RC document that teaches the positional

aspect of sanctification that Paul teaches in his Epistles, and was commanded to him to reveal to the Gentiles by Christ Himself in the Apostolic ministry He assigned to them. Shouldn’t every church teach Pauline theology?
*
Actually the gospels are superior to the Pauline epistles because they contain the actual words of Christ. Christ is what we teach, not the doctrine of Paul. The Catholic epistles are equal to the Pauline epistles. James, John, Peter and Jude spent several years in the presence of Christ, Paul had a vision. It is better to be in Christs presence than to simply have a vision. Peter, James and John are the pillars of the Church as Paul calls them. Paul is not refferred to as the pillar as far as I can tell. You must take Paul’s statements in context of the rest of the bible.

 

[onenow1]

HI,
Genesis. 2: 3, God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on that day he rested after all his work of creating.

You cannot seperate works from faith, God blessed his own work would’nt he bless our good works that we do through faith also ?

James 2:24-a man is justified by works and not faith alone.
James 2:26- faith without works is dead.
Romans 2:2-8- eternal life by persseverance and works.
2 Cor.11:15- their end will correspond to their deeds.

Peace, OneNow1

 

[sandusky]

Jimmy:

Actually what Jesus says toward the end of the semon on the mount in Matt7(where that text you quoted comes from) is far more significant than calling Jesus 'Lord". What they actually say goes further, 'did we not prophecy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and perform miracles in your name?’

That is a didactic passage (Mt 7:13-27). The significance of the teaching is that those Jesus calls lawless, are those who have entered through the “broad gate;” they are the ones counting on works that they have done (Mt 7:13 cf v22, 23 with Lk 18:11-12). In contrast, those who have entered by the narrow gate, are those who press through the gate with nothing; they are relying on Christ alone (Mt 7:14 cf v24 with Lk 18:13-14).

Jesus compares the one who has heard His words, and yet still chooses to enter by the broad gate, to a foolish man who has built his house on a foundation of sand (v22, 26).

Jesus compares those who have heard His words, and entered by the narrow gate, to a wise man who built his house on the rock (24, 25).

Those who enter by the broad gate, Jesus never knew, but He does know those who enter by the narrow gate.

 

[jimmy]

That is a didactic passage (Mt 7:13-27). The significance of the teaching is that those Jesus calls lawless, are those who have entered through the “broad gate;” they are the ones counting on works that they have done (Mt 7:13 cf v22, 23 with Lk 18:11-12). In contrast, those who have entered by the narrow gate, are those who press through the gate with nothing; they are relying on Christ alone (Mt 7:14 cf v24 with Lk 18:13-14).

Jesus compares the one who has heard His words, and yet still chooses to enter by the broad gate, to a foolish man who has built his house on a foundation of sand (v22, 26).

Jesus compares those who have heard His words, and entered by the narrow gate, to a wise man who built his house on the rock (24, 25).

Those who enter by the broad gate, Jesus never knew, but He does know those who enter by the narrow gate.

Yes it is an instructive passage just like pretty much every other one of Jesus’ words. No where does this passage imply anything near what you have interpreted it to mean. It specifically speaks of being faithfull to the will of the Father. It does not speak of having faith, and good works being irrelevant. It in fact speaks of faith alone being insufficient. Your references to Luke18 don’t support your case. They don’t support a faith only doctrine. What they show is a pharisee who is self-righteous, and a publican who is humble. That still falls into the matter of works. You must be humble to recieve salvation.

Verses 24 to the end of the chapter is about those who hear and do vs. those who hear and do not do. It does not say ‘those who enter the narrow gate’. It says ‘those who hear these words and do them’. It does not say ‘those who do not enter by the narrow gate’. It says ‘those who hear these words and do not do them.’ It is not about those who do vs those who hear. It is not faith vs works here. It is about someone who has heard what Christ has told him and followed it vs someone who has heard it and not followed. The man who follows will recieve salvation, the man who doesn’t will not recieve salvation.

 

[Milliardo]

That is a didactic passage (Mt 7:13-27). The significance of the teaching is that those Jesus calls lawless, are those who have entered through the “broad gate;” they are the ones counting on works that they have done (Mt 7:13 cf v22, 23 with Lk 18:11-12). In contrast, those who have entered by the narrow gate, are those who press through the gate with nothing; they are relying on Christ alone (Mt 7:14 cf v24 with Lk 18:13-14).

Jesus compares the one who has heard His words, and yet still chooses to enter by the broad gate, to a foolish man who has built his house on a foundation of sand (v22, 26).

If one would actually follow the whole sermon, from chapter 5 to 7, one would realize that Jesus’ take on faith is one of love and obedience, and not just knowing God alone. This part about those who performed such things in His name, but which Jesus turned away, gives emphasis on this aspect of obedience and love: Jesus is not looking for those who can perform these things without love (cf. 1 Cor. 13:2–see the take of Paul on this and compare it to Jesus’ sermon), but those who obey with love. It is further interesting that those who do it do in His name–are they not then doing it in faith? But Jesus begs to disagree–He does not want those who do it for mere faith alone, but to do it in love and charity Jesus would go on with the parable about building one’s house–one who builds up on a less solid foundation will have it come crashing down. Jesus is clear on this–build your faith in love. The central thought of it all is love–an action. Love your neighbor. A faith built not on loving God and neighbor is a faith that has very little foundation. This is the whole theme of the Olivette Discourse–love.

 

[sandusky]

Jimmy:

Yes it is an instructive passage just like pretty much every other one of Jesus’ words. No where does this passage imply anything near what you have interpreted it to mean. It specifically speaks of being faithfull to the will of the Father. It does not speak of having faith, and good works being irrelevant.

The narrow gate is called in the Greek, thlēbō, or contracted, compressed, constricted—like a turnstile, through which may enter only one foot at a time; how does one bring all of his works with him through it (cf Lk 18:13-14; cf Lk 17:7-10)?

 

[Randy_Carson]

God has ultimately sanctified every true believer eternally in Christ Jesus.

Sanctification is not a once-for-all event. It is a process - with past, present and future aspects.

I’ve posted the following so many times, even I have gotten bored…but I will continue to do so whenever need be.

Salvation as an ongoing activity

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)

Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)

Salvation as a future event

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Romans 5:9-10)

And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)

If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)

No, to be theologically correct, both sanctification and justification are parts of the complete divine salvation, wrought in Christ, gifted to the one who believes in Him.

Sanctification and justification are all part of Salvation? That’s kind of a controversial statement, isn’t it?

Protestants usually try to draw a sharp distinction between sanctification, where God puts the love in our hearts that makes us act more and more righteously, and justification, where God declares us righteous. On the other hand, Catholics use the terms differently. They do not draw a sharp distinction between justification and sanctification because the apostle Paul does not. Instead, they affirm, like the Protestant does, that at the time we are justified by God, God plants his supernatural love in our hearts, enabling us to love him and love others in a new and unselfish was that we could not love before.

This new, supernatural love is something that we are fundamentally incapable of without the grace of God. And without this new, supernatural love, we are fundamentally incapable of pleasing God in a real, substantial sense. Therefore, without God’s grace we lack the love that is needed in order to please him.

The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something not because it will help us somehow, but because we want to do it out of sheer love for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings. This is the only kind of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the only kind that ultimately gets us a reward in heaven.

At the time God justifies us, both sides agree, God puts this love in our hearts. The difference is that Catholics use the term “justification” to include this putting of love in our hearts, while Protestants commonly do not.

from Justification in Catholic Teaching by James Akin

 

[guanophore]

The narrow gate is called in the Greek, thlēbō, or contracted, compressed, constricted—like a turnstile, through which may enter only one foot at a time; how does one bring all of his works with him through it (cf Lk 18:13-14; cf Lk 17:7-10)?

No works will avail a man without faith. Faith proceeds from the heart. If a man has faith, then this will be demonstrated in his deeds, and he will bear fruit. since all this comes into the heart by grace, and flows out of the heart by grace, then the heart is where they will be carred.

 

[jimmy]

The narrow gate is called in the Greek, thlēbō, or contracted, compressed, constricted—like a turnstile, through which may enter only one foot at a time; how does one bring all of his works with him through it (cf Lk 18:13-14; cf Lk 17:7-10)?

What are you talking about bring all of his works? So according to your view, sloth is the perfect virtue? Inaction is the epitome of salvation? It has nothing to do with works that you carry in your hands or anything like that. Your works become who you are. As Jesus says in Matt12, ‘A man speaks from the abundance of his heart’. The hypocricy of the pharisee is from his heart. It is an evil work. The publican was humble of spirit. He realized he was nothing and he prayed from the heart.

Works are not a possession that you have. You are called to do good as I mentioned a couple posts back. As I said above, faith is an abandonment of the past to Gods mercy and the future to His providence. God will provide for those who abandon the past and future and do what He calls them to do in the present. He will provide them with the Grace to be faithfull. Our job is to be faithfull, to do the work we are called to do. What are we called to do? That is different for each person but the spiritual and physical acts of mercy are a good beginning. Otherwise we are not servants of God. If our faith is not put into action it is meaningless and it will only condemn us to hell. That is what it is to do works. It is to have faith and to be faithfull. Do you love God? Show it by being faithfull. Your references to Luke17 and Luke18 only support what I am saying.

As Paul says, if I have faith but have not charity I am nothing[1Cor.13]. Love is found in self sacrifice, not in a profession of faith.

 

[Odell]

question to you protestants. How do you see every judgement acount in the bible that talks about hell or heaven with if you are evil or good? How do yo enterprit evry judgement passage?

 

[jimmy]

Declared righteousness, or justice is a false doctrine(it looks like you are preaching declared righteousness from what Randy quoted from you). The Greek word for to justify means ‘to put into a right relationship’ or ‘to make right’. If you have ever read Plato’s dialogue on justice you would know what it means. It means basically to give to each their due. So to justify is to destroy the evil and make it good. A sinfull man’s sinfullness will be destroyed through the process of justification and the sinner will be made good. Justification is not some singular event in time. It is an act of God(with our participation) to perfect us.

 

[dessert]

The narrow gate is called in the Greek, thlēbō, or contracted, compressed, constricted—like a turnstile, through which may enter only one foot at a time; how does one bring all of his works with him through it (cf Lk 18:13-14; cf Lk 17:7-10)?

Your works will precede you, sandusky, within the hearts of others that have gone before you and speak your name to the Lord as to your generousity and charity, faithfullness as the Lord has chosen you by name and knows all of us by name.

My greek says pulo’n gateway or doorway.

Dessert

 

[Pax]

The narrow gate is called in the Greek, thlēbō, or contracted, compressed, constricted—like a turnstile, through which may enter only one foot at a time; how does one bring all of his works with him through it (cf Lk 18:13-14; cf Lk 17:7-10)?

In Matthew 7:14 it says:

"For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven.”

Nothing trumps the words of Jesus. Any interpretation of Paul that goes contrary to the words of Jesus is simply an erroneous interpretation. We are clearly not saved by faith alone.

The narrow gate that Jesus speaks of has nothing to do with squeezing works through it. Your attempt to set up a problem by this is perhaps doctrinally motivated and not based in scripture itself. This passage and reference is better understood to mean the level of difficulty in finding the gate. That is why the path to perdition is said to be wide and that many find it. That is the easily found path which provides the least amount of difficulty in life. Those that follow that easy path live in the flesh following their passions and the whims of the flesh, rather than following the upward call of Christ.

Mere faith, as an intellectual faith is rather easy. A living faith working through love is not. That is why the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and that is why few find it while many perish living in the flesh.