"Works" Salvation?

[sandusky]

I agree that the Catholic positions are clear and reasonable.

I think the problem is the Protestants are taught to put their faith in the teachings, of Luther and Calvin and those teachings of their religion that originate from Luther and Calvin but are handed down in their tradition today, such as faith alone and scripture alone. And they lock on to theses teachings like a leech, as if they came from God himself, and not from Luther and Calvin.

Catholics are taught to put their faith in Jesus, who said that we MUST listen to His Church, that is, we must listen to those to whom Jesus put in authority in His Church and we must believe the Gospel that the leaders of His Church taught and preached (Mark 16:16).

Luther and Calvin say essentially that Jesus is wrong. According to them, we don’t have to listen to the teaching authorities in His Church. Instead everyone can make up his own Gospel. Thus, they are taught their Gospel, based on faith alone and scripture alone, as interpreted by each denomination and by every individual, which leads to millions of different beliefs, even within each denomination. When their personal interpretation does not conform to the Gospel the apostles handed down to the bishops of the Catholic Church, the same Gospel taught today, then the Protestant concludes, ha!, see the Catholic Church is wrong! And of course, so is every other Christian that does not agree with them.

If they don’t believe Jesus when He said to believe the Gospel His Church taught and preached, they won’t believe us today, no matter how clear and reasonable we present this Gospel today.

Thus, it seems to me, to be a problem of faith, either faith in Luther, Calvin and their teachings of Scripture alone as handed down by their religious leaders,

or faith in Jesus who said to listen to His Church.

Faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin cannot save anyone. It is only faith in Jesus, who said to listen to His Church through which we can have salvation.

Of course they will deny that their faith is in the teachings of Luther and Calvin, then at the same time lock on these same teachings and refuse to let go.

But Jesus never taught that salvation comes from simply reading the Gospels the apostles wrote, but from believing the Gospel that the leaders of His Church taught and preached. Jesus said
“Preach the Gospel to all nations, he who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16) Thus we must believe the Gospel His Church taught and preached to be saved.

And it is a historical fact that the early Christians who learned from these apostles believed teachings which are the exact same teachings His Church teaches today. The Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, etc. were Catholic. The letters of Paul to the Romans were written to Catholics. Those written to the Corinthians were written to the Catholics in Corinth, those written to the Hebrews and Galatians were written to Catholics. The Peter and Paul were Catholic. Peter and Paul were not Protestant.
The Christians in the New Testament were not Protestant, but Catholic. Because they all learned the Gospel from the apostles, and not from Luther and Calvin who made up scripture alone.
This is all historical fact.

The** apostles** appointed CATHOLIC bishops as their successors. The bishops did not appoint themselves.
Again, historical fact. How did these bishops learn the Catholic faith? From the apostles. The apostles were Catholic. How the did the apostles learn the Catholic faith? From Jesus Christ Himself. The Gospel Jesus taught was the Catholic faith. That is why the apostles were Catholic and their successors, the bishops, were Catholic. Protestantism did not come from Jesus, or the apostles, or their successors. Faith alone and scripture alone came from Luther and Calvin in the 1500’s, not from Jesus and the apostles. The successors the apostles appointed were Catholic bishops, not Protestant bishops.

Thus, “faith alone” and “scripture alone” are not teachings of Jesus, or the apostles, or the Catholic bishops they appointed.

“Faith alone” and “scripture alone” are teachings of Luther and Calvin, NOT Peter and Paul who were Catholic, and thus not the teachings of Jesus.

straw man noun (1896)
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted.

 

[guanophore]

Here is question for any one.
James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit, the body is dead, right?

By analogy, is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works, faith is dead?

Absolutely DLC. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches other than this?

 

[sandusky]

I personally don’t think any of you are that dense, so this is my last entry on this thread, but I suspect that this thread has run it’s course and is now just a waste of time.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

Wow! Two firsts.

A compliment from CM, albeit a sideways one; and, I agree with him; what else can be said on this thread?

 

[Randy_Carson]

You should know that, as your system has as its centerpiece a sacrament of sacrifice, in which, the sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented to the Father in a ritual said to be propitiatory.

Why is Catholicism a “system”? How is it a “system” any more than say, “methodism”? Is this word intended pejoratively?

Furthermore, there is the elaborate ritual of the sacrament of reconciliation, and penance.

Could you perhaps elaborate on what makes the sacrament of reconciliation “elaborate”?

In my own experience, I confess my sins (briefly mentioning the sins, number of times, circumstances, etc.), the priest offers some counseling, I say the act of contrition, he gives absolution and assigns a penance. I could be in and out in just a few minutes. What is this “elaborate ritual” of which you speak?

It seems your Church understands the necessity, and the difficulty of keeping the law perfectly—a difficulty that you downplay—by providing a means of forgiveness, and reconciliation.

Have you mispoken here?

The Catholic Church does not teach the “necessity” and “difficulty of keeping the law perfectly”. Paul tells us of the impossibility of doing so, and we are no longer under the Law.

We do have a sacrament that enables us to be reconciled to God and to the Church when we have sinned, but this is perfectly in keeping with the scriptures concerning confession of sins.

What law are you suggesting that we are trying to keep?

 

[guanophore]

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, Eph 2:8-9. Jesus tells us in John 3:16 that if one believes in Him the will not perish but have everlasting life. It would be clear from these passage that when one has faith in Christ he is saved.

Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

John 6:47
7 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Yes, it is clear from these passages that when one has faith in Christ, he is saved. However, these verses are not meant to be taken in a vacuum, apart from other verses that teach obedience in faith is saving. The problem is the myopic interpretations of these verses, and that is why the conclusion is erroneous. One must take the whole, not just amputated parts. I think the issue of the role of the church in salvation might belong to another thread.

 

[Randy_Carson]

straw man noun (1896)
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted.

Calling his post a “straw man” does not make it one. This is argument by assertion.

Perhaps you will offer a real argument demonstrating where the post is in error if you believe it to be so.

 

[guanophore]

The point being, you cannot enter salvation through the efforts of any king of law keeping - of ANY kind. This would include the Ten Commandments. "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH…not as a result of works."Jn. 3:14-18.Through the teachings of men that is what it evolved into. But based on God’s Word alone (which does not change) there is no “and” after the word “believe.” “Do” is not an added condition but a natural consequence of those “created in Christ Jesus” for those good works.

Apo, you are again refuting the teachings of the Catholic Church, and promoting error in these fora. You are close, if not over the line of the rules of the forum by promoting your own agenda, and attempting to pull Catholics away from their faith. Is it your goal to be banned from the forum? If you are banned, maybe you will then feel satisfied that you tried to “preach the gospel to the unbelieving” and were rejected?

Again you continue to persist in the error of confusing works of the flesh with the Works of God. Again you erroneously promote that the only source of God’s word is that truncated bible in front of you.

Giving to the poor is not a condition on which salvation hinges. You may* freely* give but not as a condition for salvation or it is no longer an act of love, but an act of obedience to law. And by the works of law no flesh will be jusified in His sight (Rom. 3:20).

There is no arguement that works of the flesh will not justify a person. However, since you are blind, and unwilling to open your eyes to distinguish between the Works of God, and works of the flesh, you will not be able to understand the role of the corporate works of mercy in the process of salvation.

 

[guanophore]

A Romans 7:22-25

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.[/indent]

Is it not clear even to you, though you are suffering great hardness of heart, that there is one law of God, and another Law of the flesh? How is it that you are not able to differentiate between the two when it comes to matters pertaining to salvation how is it that you tamper with God’s word, by separating it from it’s source?

"… to tamper with God’s word,… And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…2 Cor 4:2-4

Why are you blinded?

 

[apophasis]

guanophore:

Apo, this constant bashing at the teaching of the church is getting more and more concerning.

Guano, to challenge some of the teachings is not “bashing.”

It borders on a violation of the forum rules, by making it appear that you are trying to pull Catholics away from their faith, and to promote your own private agenda to bash the teachings.

When have you EVER seen me suggest to anyone that he/she should leave the CC? Now, admittedly, I have challenged some of its stated, soteriological doctrines (that’s what this particular thread is all about), and I have challenged some of your personal interpretations of Scriptural passages. But I (nor Sandusky) have EVER hinted to the idea of you or anyone leaving the CC. That is no concern of mine, and I would take the liberty to say that it is not the concern of Sandusky either.

There are not a whole lot of Prots. that post on this forum, but I have yet to see any one of them suggest a Catholic become a “Baptist” or “Lutheran” or “Methodist.” Actually, the only evangelizing or proselytizing being done on this forum is by Catholics themselves who suggest to the Prots. who post here that they leave their church, “cross the Tiber” and “come home,” I have yet to see the reverse. I have seen some good (and not so good) doctrinal challenges by Prots. posted here, but that’s as far as it ever goes.

Would you be more comfortable if Prots. were not allowed on the forum? That was once a queston raised here and the majority of Catholics said they enjoyed their presence and the task of the challenge.

 

[dessert]

“For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH…” (not baptism). Multitutes are baptized and never personally believe.

Thank you for your response.I neede to get to sleep and now I need to gotto work again.
I agrree with John 3;16 but if you read all of John 3 but read on 22; After these things, Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. read 25 and 26 He (disciples)is baptizing and all are coming to Him!! This was upsetting to the jews.
27 John answered ,“A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.”

19; And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but pepole prefer darkness to light, because their works are evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light , (action) so that his works might not be exposed (confession) 21 But whoever lives (action) the truth comes (action) to the light, so that his works(judgement is not only future but is partially realized now) may be clearly seen as done in God.

Your baptism is a testimony it is a beiginning and the fruits will follow or not if it is not of received.

Your works that of God and the Holy Spirit will precede you to haeaven because Jesus said whatever you do to the least(poor) and or trodden you have done to me . They who die before you and me or after will be the testimony and witness to our works.

There are many who say they have faith but do nothing to help the poor. Baptism --receiving grace --faith–hope -charity --the greatest —the apostles and the Catholic Church (body) and the Magisterium(guidelines) and profession of faith.

So what is your profession of faith ? Exacttly? won’t get back till tommorrow. Dessert

 

[DLC]

Paul said in 1 Cor that he came to preach the gospel and not to baptize. Now if baptism is part of the gospel then Paul would never have made this statement.
1 Cor 1:17
7 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
NASU

 

[Keikiolu]

One person said this: “Faith in the teachings of Luther and Calvin cannot save anyone. It is only faith in Jesus, who said to listen to His Church through which we can have salvation.”

The Bible clearly tells us that we are saved by grace through faith, Eph 2:8-9. Jesus tells us in John 3:16 that if one believes in Him the will not perish but have everlasting life. It would be clear from these passage that when one has faith in Christ he is saved.

Here is a question. It was also mentioned that from this person that Jesus told us to listen to the church through which salvation comes. Read theses verses.
Acts 4:12
12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
NASU

We listen to the Church because it is the authority we have been given by Him whom we receive salvation from.

When we listen to the Church, we are listening to Jesus, and by listening to and obeying Jesus (not once-and-for-all but continually until the end) we are saved.

You don’t want to buy that argument? That’s cool. Listen to yourself or to your (fallible) interpretation of the Holy Spirit. Best of luck with that!

John 6:47
7 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
NASU

It would seem clear that salvation is in Christ and not in a church. No verse in the Bible tells us that salvation come through any church. If so what verse says that? What verse tells us that we are to get our interpretation for the Bible from any church? None.

Salvation IS in Christ Jesus, and through His works, such as His words as recorded in scripture, the words given by the Holy Spirit through the NT authors, and through the institution established by Him known as THE Church.

Catechism 845-848:
notes:

• 845: (334) St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9L 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118L 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.
• 846: (335) Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.
  (336) LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
• 847: (337) LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
• 848: (338) AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[DLC]

Is it true that Paul tells us in Romans 3:23 that we are all sinners? Yes. Is it true man is fallible and God is infallible? Yes.
Is it true that the teaching magesterium of the are men? Yes.
Is it true that because they are men they are sinners and fallible? Yes.
So, we need an infaalible guide to lead us into all truth. Every person who is born again by faith alone in Christ is indwelt with an infallible guide, God the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16-17

"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
NASU

John 14:26-27
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
NASU

John 16:13
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
NASU

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Is it true that the teaching magesterium of the are men? Yes.

13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
NASU

The teaching magesterium of Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit to lead all to Truth.

Your personal interpertations of different scriptures are different than Sandusky for an example. Who is right in understanding the scriptures you or him? How can the holy spirit lead both to different understandings of the same scripture and both of you still be right?

 

[Church_Militant]

Here is question for any one.
James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit, the body is dead, right?

By analogy, is it not clear that apart from the evidence of

good works, faith is dead?Nope…You can’t rationalize that verse to escape the plain fact that St. James is telling you that without active loving works…faith is dead, and therefore, professed faith is not saving faith.

 

[Church_Militant]

Wow! Two firsts.

A compliment from CM, albeit a sideways one; and, I agree with him; what else can be said on this thread?

I changed my mind.

Not much…you don’t believe…it’s on your own head.

 

[Keikiolu]

Is it true that Paul tells us in Romans 3:23 that we are all sinners? Yes. Is it true man is fallible and God is infallible? Yes.
Is it true that the teaching magesterium of the are men? Yes.
Is it true that because they are men they are sinners and fallible? Yes.
So, we need an infaalible guide to lead us into all truth. Every person who is born again by faith alone in Christ is indwelt with an infallible guide, God the Holy Spirit.

You said:Is it true that the teaching magesterium of the are men? Yes. Is it true that because they are men they are sinners and fallible? Yes.Every person who is born again by faith alone in Christ is indwelt with an infallible guide, God the Holy Spirit.Uhh,… You would deny that those men of the Magisterium CAN’T have the assistance of the infallible guide, The Holy Spirit, because they aren’t “born again by faith alone”?

Where is it said that ONLY “one born again by faith alone” is capable of receiving the Holy Spirit?

John 14:16-17
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
NASU

John14:1 says: “Let not your HEARTS be troubled”.

He was talking to “the CHURCH”, most likely as well as to an individual.

Are you equating “the world” with “the Catholic Church”, and therefore stating that the Church can’t receive the Holy Spirit?

John 14:26-27
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
NASU

OK. What is the point of this addition to your commentary?

John 16:13
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
NASU

And I agree with you that the Holy Spirit will indeed guide us into all truth (as far as our individual capabilities can handle), but once again He was speaking of His people (the Church).

Even if we individually are guided into all truth, why is it that we don’t act as we should after said “guiding”?

IF you think that each one of us can be infallible in our interpretations, then you must admit that even the individuals of the Magisterium have this capability.

IF they can be individually infallible, then surely the Holy Spirit wouldn’t contradict Himself and allow these infallible people to contradict each other?

But, apparently you’ve decided that they CAN’T possibly have the capabilities that YOU have, because of YOUR special abilities.

I personally would rather have the Holy Spirit working through a large number of infallible believers for my benefit, as opposed to doing all the heavy lifting myself.

Your rather uncharitable view SEEMS to be that the Magisterium is actively evil, and therefore has no access to the Holy Spirit whatsoever.

Is that what you believe?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Here is question for any one.
James 2:26 indicates that apart from the spirit, the body is dead, right?

“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead,…”

By analogy, is it not clear that apart from the evidence of good works, faith is dead?

“…so faith apart from works is dead.”

Wait a minute! Who’s side are you on…!!?

I thought you were arguing works were not necessary?

Now you’re arguing the opposite?!

Gahhhhhhhhh…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Milliardo]

Where?

Reread your posts. But hey, I’m cool with it if you backtrack and deny it. No probs there.

Christ said that the law and prophets depend on the two commandments he had given; he said that, because He had been accused of trying to abolish the law, and He was ensuring that no one misunderstood Him concerning that (cf Mt 5:17; Dt. 6:5; Lev 19:18). The moral law has not been abolished.

Still doesn’t mean that He is confining loving God and neighbor to the Law. Do you love God? Do you consider that to be only under the Law? Or do you love Him inspite of it, as you claim, being under the Law? If yes, then wouldn’t it be reasonable that it then transcends to being just the Law, and indeed to love God and neighbor is universal, and thus would not merely be confined to Mosaic Law?

You should know that, as your system has as its centerpiece a sacrament of sacrifice, in which, the sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented to the Father in a ritual said to be propitiatory.

And your point would be then…? I don’t even see the connection with the topic, unless you’re making the usual anti-Catholic rant.

Furthermore, there is the elaborate ritual of the sacrament of reconciliation, and penance.

Elaborate? Oh wow–it’s not elaborate, nor intricate, nor hard. It’s so easy. Wonder what makes you think it is. But we digress from the topic here…

You’ve read my statement eisegetically, and have taken a wrong inference.

In short, you realize where you went wrong, backtracked, and now try to say that you’ve said it all along and that we didn’t get it? Oh well–whatever floats your boat, but then again people here read your posts, so they know better.

 

[Keikiolu]

Paul said in 1 Cor that he came to preach the gospel and not to baptize. Now if baptism is part of the gospel then Paul would never have made this statement.
1 Cor 1:17
7 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
NASU

“…This is a reminder that preaching is St Paul’s main task, as it is of the other Apostles (cf. Mk3:14). This does not imply a belittling of Baptism …]. But baptism presupposes preaching: “Faith comes from what is heard” (Rom 10:17). St. Paul concentrates on preaching, leaving it to others to gather the fruit …].”

-from the commentary of 1Cor1:17 in Navarre Bible Corinthians.
(isbn 1-85182-906-7)

For your own self preservation, I would suggest you stop taking things so massively out of context.

Prayin’ for 'ya…!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.