"Works" Salvation?

[RNRobert]

Re baptising one’s self:

I heard a story (not sure if it’s true or just a legend) about this stage performer in Roman times who while on stage, baptised himself as a mockery of the Christian faith. However, after he did this, he became a Christian for real, and died a martyr’s death, so the story goes.

 

[guanophore]

No you can not baptize yourself, but you can pretend to if you like!
Dessert

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert

I cannot tell for sure if you are deliberately contentious or narrow minded. Both? When you are told that Catholics believe that baptism is essential for salvation, you then immediately start coming up with a wild scenario to demonstrate a situation where it does not apply. Well, the Church has already provided for such situation. It is ridiculous to make a statement such as “I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God”. It makes your God so small! Just because God has ordained that the normative procedure of initiation is baptism, does not mean he is bound by it Himself. Jesus can initiate anyone He wants, however He wants. Of course Baptism is a gift. All the sacraments are gifts from Jesus. He was baptised himself (not because He needed it) but to show us an example.

 

[guanophore]

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

God Bless,
Robert

In your case, Robert, it would be sacriligious. If you were already baptized Catholic, and if you are re-baptized, it is the same as saying that the first one was not valid. It is a way of spitting in the face of Jesus, and your parents, and Godparents, and telling them the faith in which they baptized you is a bunch of bunk.

If you believe these things, then it you are in a grievous state, and getting baptized again will not change it.

 

[Montgomeryatty]

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God.

As many have already noted, the Church clearly allows for a “baptism of desire,” so that anyone who comes to believe shortly before they die, or in a situation where baptism is impossible, will still be able to enter heaven. Interestingly, however, there is a denomination which makes no exception whatsoever: the Church of Christ considers baptism fundamentally and inescapably required. The Church has no such strictures . . .

 

[Robert902]

You will need to read more of the thread to understand the context in which I used this ‘sole survivor/saved’ scenario. It is ridiculous taken out of context. The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Believing comes first and is what saves you, and then comes baptism. It doesn’t say he who is baptized not is damned, but it does say he that believeth not shall be damned. It’s the believing, not the baptism that saves you.
John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” If baptism is so important, why was it left out here?
I’m not saying that we are to ignore everything else in the Bible, as many seem to think. I am ONLY talking about what is needed to be saved. If you read these threads long enough you will get so confused as to what is actually necessary to be saved; you need to be baptized, you need to join the Catholic Church, if you are in a state of sin when you die, you will go to hell, if you miss Mass on Sunday and don’t confess your sins to a priest before you die, you will go to hell, on and on it goes. Do this…don’t do that! These are only some of the ridiculous things that I have read here that many of you think are going to save you.
As Christians we are to preach the Good News…the Gospel…it’s the great commission. If I were a non believer searching for the truth, and I came to this web site, I would be so frustrated and confused as to what I needed to do to go to heaven. I’m not trying to offend anyone here, but if we don’t actually know what it means to be saved, how can we bring people to Christ? It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ. How tragic it is that so many people see it the other way around.
“Test all things” God commands us. That command is found in the Bible Eph 5:20… so I assume that God’s standard for that test would be the Book that I found it in. I am to compare, or “test” everything with the Bible, which is God’s word. If I use other sources as the standard, as many of you suggest I do, I am not proving anything, but only fooling myself.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Robert902]

As many have already noted, the Church clearly allows for a “baptism of desire,” so that anyone who comes to believe shortly before they die, or in a situation where baptism is impossible, will still be able to enter heaven. Interestingly, however, there is a denomination which makes no exception whatsoever: the Church of Christ considers baptism fundamentally and inescapably required. The Church has no such strictures . . .

I find no reference in the Bible to baptism of desire, so for me it fails the “test”. Eph 5:20 ‘Test all things, hold fast what is good.’

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Believing in the Son saves, not belief in baptism.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is true.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Robert902]

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things”.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You say it is a gift, have you accepted it yet or are you still thowing it into His Face and saying it is not neccesary.

This sounds like a Jonah experience.

So watch out for the big fish!

Although I believe the representation of Jonah in the whale is fortelling Jesus in the tomb for three days I may have this wrong?Sorry

What a nice story I could make out of this tale.

Let’s see Robert last seen in the ocean on his cruise ship but there came a storm and he was swept overboard, with his bookbag.
But when he opened it of course he didn’t have the book CASAWAY darn! but did have the bible because it was someone else’s bag not his.

Having never read the bible before so how could he know:shrug: where to turn but happens to open to…
you provide the verse____________
continues to read all the bible and considers building a fire with it but no… this is my salvation the book so I can’t yes no yes no
after a week and he is starving but does not burn it but has taken the words to his heart and soul.

So another week is past and thinks I better go eat at least a little seaweed get my greens.

He feels better now, and maybe it is actually sea water oops would not have lived that long but you can exist on water for about 30 days before systems shut down and then after your body goes into a point of no return.

Now he has believed and read and sees the part of Baptism but does not say nooooooo I don’t need that but Jesus shows him where Jesus baptized by John, Oh I missed that part so he goes over and because no one is around except maybe the angel that God has protected him with.
He lies down in the water and lets the hand of the ocean sweep over his head and brow and feels the fingers of God washing him in the forgivesness of the Holy Spirit and through the Salvation of the blood of the Son is imersed or just the head rinsed clean even if it is salt water as that is all available.

As he is lieing their he sees a plane over head and is therefore resued.

He immediately,after recovery in the hospital for a couple months, goes to a priest an tells him his story and they rejoice and confirm his testimony and his baptism is validated and the priest helps him to further be confirmed and become in communion with the Church.

But then maybe you would rather stay in the whale for three days suffering Dessert

1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

It’s belief on the Son, not belief in baptism that saves you.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God commands us to ‘test all things’. Eph 5:20
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[guanophore]

I used this ‘sole survivor/saved’ scenario. It is ridiculous taken out of context.

I thought it was pretty ridiculous IN context. You seem to be grasping for anything to avoid accepting the teachings of the Church.

The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Why does that bother you?

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Believing comes first and is what saves you, and then comes baptism. It doesn’t say he who is baptized not is damned, but it does say he that believeth not shall be damned. It’s the believing, not the baptism that saves you.

Ok. So, you believe, and you are saved, right? What’s the problem?

John 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” If baptism is so important, why was it left out here?

I don’t think I am really qualified to criticise how the Holy Spirit inspired the writers.

I’m not saying that we are to ignore everything else in the Bible, as many seem to think. {/QUOTE]

Wonder why we would think that?
Robert902;2050641:

I am ONLY talking about what is needed to be saved. If you read these threads long enough you will get so confused as to what is actually necessary to be saved;

Maybe you should stop reading?

you need to be baptized, you need to join the Catholic Church,  if you are in a state of sin when you die, you will go to hell, if you miss Mass on Sunday and don't confess your sins to a priest before you die, you will go to hell, on and on it goes.  Do this...don't do that!  These are only some of the ridiculous things that I have read here that many of you think are going to save you.

Actually, Robert, these things were not all said here. If you think they were, well…we are not allowed to give psychological or medical advice here…

As Christians we are to preach the Good News…the Gospel…it’s the great commission.

Perhaps we are reading a different commission? Perhaps more than a few books have been removed from that Bible you are reading?

" And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Matt 28:18-20

If I were a non believer searching for the truth, and I came to this web site, I would be so frustrated and confused as to what I needed to do to go to heaven. I’m not trying to offend anyone here, but if we don’t actually know what it means to be saved, how can we bring people to Christ? It’s not a religion, it’s a relationship with Jesus Christ. How tragic it is that so many people see it the other way around.

Is your goal here to enlighted all of us misdirected Catholics, so that we can get back to the “real” Gospel?

“Test all things” God commands us. That command is found in the Bible Eph 5:20… so I assume that God’s standard for that test would be the Book that I found it in. I am to compare, or “test” everything with the Bible, which is God’s word. If I use other sources as the standard, as many of you suggest I do, I am not proving anything, but only fooling myself.

God Bless,
Robert

That is an erroneous assumption on your part, Robert. The scripture is not the be all and the end all of the instruction of Jesus, as you have been lead to believe. However, again I will say that it is not possible to “prove” matters of faith, especially without faith. If you have no faith in what Jesus said to his Apostles, or no faith in the strength of the Holy Spirit to preserve that teaching, you probably will fool yourself, as you have already been fooled by erroneous teaching.

 

[guanophore]

1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

It’s belief on the Son, not belief in baptism that saves you.

God Bless,
Robert

Well, Robert? Now that we have established that we see it differently, does there remain any reason for you to be on the forum? You are saved, you don’t need the Catholic church, or her teachings. Are you content to go in peace?

 

[Odell]

This is very interesting. Suppose I’m on an airplane, and it crashes on a remote island and I am the sole survivor. I find a Bible among the rubble and get convicted that I am a sinner, and need a savior. The Bible that I am reading me tells me that I am saved by grace through faith. I have faith in what I have read, and believe that Jesus is God, and only through God’s grace I am forgiven. So according to what you have told me, unless someone comes along before I die of starvation to Baptize me, I cannot possibly enter the kingdom of God. This is why Baptism can’t possibly be a prerequisite for salvation. It’s a gift.

Suppose I have a mentaly handicaap kid who cant read the bible or undertand that Jesus is God and cant except him as his personal lord and savior. What you tell us is that he cant possibly enter the kingdom of heaven.

Is this what yiou believe do you believe that all the indians that never knew Jesus or had a bible went to hell. Because someone did not come along to tell them Jesus is lord?

 

[Odell]

(1 Cor 12:13) “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” Jesus body. Baptism is how we become members of Jesus body. Not by one act of faith. And what is Jesus body? The Church. Baptism is how we become members of the new covenant.

(Rom 6: 3-4) “Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death.

 

[dessert]

!

1 Cor 1:17 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.”
John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

It’s belief on the Son, not belief in baptism that saves you.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
God commands us to ‘test all things’. Eph 5:20
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you. 2 Cor; 13; 13
Dessert

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’d still like to know if it is ok for me to baptize myself? Will I still go to heaven?

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Immersion is one way of baptism, though the Church sprinkles the water than a full immersion. I am not sure with Eastern rite Catholics; I would think that they do a full immersion.

No. You should seek to be baptized by a Catholic priest. You may not confer the sacrament validly upon yourself.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

You will need to read more of the thread to understand the context in which I used this ‘sole survivor/saved’ scenario. It is ridiculous taken out of context. The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary for salvation.

Agreed.

However, there are three types of baptism:

1. 
   *]Water
   *]Desire
   *]Blood
   Water is normative.
   
   Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

“Born of water” refers only to our physical water birth. Jesus was contrasting this with our spiritual birth. If Jesus had meant baptism, He would have said baptism.

And if he had meant “eat my flesh” he would have said “eat my flesh”. Oh…wait…

Let’s look at Jesus’ words, shall we?

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)

"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless:

A. he is born out of the water of natural birth from the womb

AND

B. of the Spirit.

Who exactly is disqualified by A? No one! Okay…technically Adam and Eve and possibly Melchizedek. What is the point of Jesus naming a qualifier that excludes exactly three people in the entire history of creation? There is no point.

This is Reformed nonsense forced by the idea that one is saved by Faith Alone because baptism is viewed as a work. Pish-posh.

Of course Jesus is speaking of Baptism. He himself was baptized in chapter 1 of the Gospel of John. Did I mention that John himself was a disciple originally of JOHN THE BAPTIST? No doubt the Apostle had some experience with being born of water, n’est-ce pas?

A mere 17 verses later we read the following:

"After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized…[Some people] came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.” (John 3:22, 26)

Why was Jesus (or his disciples) baptizing if it wasn’t that big a deal? Because “baptism now saves you.” (1 Peter 3:21)

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Robert902]

2 Cor. 3:6-11 “The letter and the spirit.”

Since Apostolic times, ritual, ceremonial and sacramental Christianity has posed a serious threat to the authentic Biblical Gospel. This type of church becomes a surrogate Christ, displacing the real Christ.
People connect only to the institution (their church) through the mechanical works rather than to the living Christ.
External ceremonies take the place of internal worship. The sacrament or ritual becomes the means of grace instead of the symbols of grace.
Ministers become exalted intermediaries between the people and God.
Performing rituals for salvation, instead of humble servants who bring grace to save, sanctify and equip the saints for the work of the ministry. Eph. 4:12.
Read Col. 2:6-17 and 2 Cor. 11:23-27 (GRACE)

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 “Test all things, hold fast what is good.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Agreed.

However, there are three types of baptism:

1. 
   *]Water
   *]Desire
   *]Blood
   Water is normative.
   
   Hope this helps. :tiphat:

1. 
   Hi,
   
   Could you or someone tell me where you get the concept baptism by desire. I have never heard of it before this forum. Is it a catholic dogma/doctrine?

 

[RNRobert]

Hi,

Could you or someone tell me where you get the concept baptism by desire. I have never heard of it before this forum. Is it a catholic dogma/doctrine?

This from the catechism:

1259. For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This from the catechism:

Hi,
Thanks:thumbsup: Whoever wrote that–do you know where they came up with it though?

 

[RNRobert]

Hi,
Thanks:thumbsup: Whoever wrote that–do you know where they came up with it though?

Not sure, although obviously the thief on the cross was a good example of “baptism by desire.”

I also came across this link:

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#X