"Works" Salvation?

[guanophore]

It seems to me that, based on your message (specifically referring to “why bother?”) that we are supposed to be working our way to heaven.

No. How did you come up with that?

I mean, why bother doing good works if you are predesitined or chosen before the foundation of the world? Are you doing works to earn heaven?

no. But, if you are going to be saved whether you do them or not, then obedience is not necessary.

That is what this very thread has spoken against.

No. This thread has spoken against an erroneous assertion that misrepresented Catholicsim. Catholicism does not teach that we can earn our way to heaven by good works.

Empty yourself of your own righteousness in that case, repent, and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. His merit is my merit.

Maybe you should read the thread again, because you did not get the point. This comment rests on the assumption that Catholics think they can earn their way to heaven by doing good works. This is an error, and a misunderstanding of Catholicism. It also assumes that the good works Catholics teach and practice somehow come out of themselves, rather than the righteousness of God in Christ.

So, then - I say - I bother because Christ bothered to die for me. He was not forced to do it…I mean, why bother, Jesus?? Because He loved us so much. And I love Him because He first loved me.

May God Show Us Truth…

The truth is that you good works, done in faith because of your love of Christ bring you merit, as the OP quoted in the prayer of the church.

 

[Milliardo]

I believe that Romans Chapter 4 says that we are saved/justified on the basis of faith alone just in the way the text reads…

I said it before and will say it again–Paul couldn’t contradict himself in Romans 2, then go on another direction in Romans 3 onwards. Read Romans 3, and see that what he’s talking about is works of the law, not good works.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Nothing here that’s against good works, and indeed, good works must be done in love. If anything, this passage only affirms more the need for good works. It also helps to note that, again, Paul is pointing out here that works of the law (of which circumcision is an example) does not save.

James tells us that it must be a living faith…one that manifests itself in works.

Indeed–that is actually what the Catholic Church teaches.

We must be reminded by the CCC and the scriptures that the faith that is in the heart of the believer is not of our own selves but that which is a gift from God. Coming to faith is by grace…

That is correct–our faith, and our works along with it, are God’s gifts to us, prepared by Him for us to live in them. That is why James said that faith without works is dead, because we must live our faith through those good works which God has prepared for us to do.

 

[RNRobert]

The Catholic Church has NEVER taught salvation by works, despite what some Protestants claim to the contrary. :banghead:. We are saved purely by God’s grace, but he expects us to cooperate with God’s grace.
As far as predestination goes, I believe that God knows beforehand the choices we make, but I don’t believe he creates anyone just to condemn them to hell. The Bible states he wishes ALL men to be saved. For those who believe in predestination: what make you so sure you are one of the few ‘elect’ to be saved (I never met anyone who believed in predestination that believed they were predestined to hell)?

 

[OneForTruth]

No. How did you come up with that?

**no. But, if you are going to be saved whether you do them or not, then obedience is not necessary. **

No. This thread has spoken against an erroneous assertion that misrepresented Catholicsim. Catholicism does not teach that we can earn our way to heaven by good works.

Maybe you should read the thread again, because you did not get the point. This comment rests on the assumption that Catholics think they can earn their way to heaven by doing good works. This is an error, and a misunderstanding of Catholicism. It also assumes that the good works Catholics teach and practice somehow come out of themselves, rather than the righteousness of God in Christ.

The truth is that you good works, done in faith because of your love of Christ bring you merit, as the OP quoted in the prayer of the church.

Okay - here is the implication of the logic that was brought forward. Why bother doing good works if you are predestined? If you have assurance of salvation, why do good works? The implications of this statement show a motiviation to earn salvation through good works - why bother?? This is easy to see…I did not say that is what Catholicism teaches - I said this is the implication of the statement. What is the motiviation??? Are you motiviated to do good works because it earns salvation - that is the implication. Not so on my part…again - I love Him because He first loved me.

Now, whether or not Catholicism teaches this or not, I do not know, BUT, I have not heard this type of statement from this person only, but also from many others in this forum as I have perused the information people are placing in their postings.

May God Help Us…

 

[guanophore]

Okay - here is the implication of the logic that was brought forward. Why bother doing good works if you are predestined? If you have assurance of salvation, why do good works? The implications of this statement show a motiviation to earn salvation through good works - why bother?? This is easy to see…I did not say that is what Catholicism teaches - I said this is the implication of the statement. What is the motiviation??? Are you motiviated to do good works because it earns salvation - that is the implication. Not so on my part…again - I love Him because He first loved me.

Now, whether or not Catholicism teaches this or not, I do not know, BUT, I have not heard this type of statement from this person only, but also from many others in this forum as I have perused the information people are placing in their postings.

May God Help Us…

Ok, I see your point. I think the question was worded that way because it is a way of challenging the place of sanctification and perseverance in the predestination theology. If you are guaranteed heaven, then you can be just as sinful as all get out, and it will not rob you of your birthright.

 

[mikeledes]

Okay - here is the implication of the logic that was brought forward. Why bother doing good works if you are predestined? If you have assurance of salvation, why do good works? The implications of this statement show a motiviation to earn salvation through good works - why bother?? This is easy to see…I did not say that is what Catholicism teaches - I said this is the implication of the statement. What is the motiviation??? Are you motiviated to do good works because it earns salvation - that is the implication. Not so on my part…again - I love Him because He first loved me.

Now, whether or not Catholicism teaches this or not, I do not know, BUT, I have not heard this type of statement from this person only, but also from many others in this forum as I have perused the information people are placing in their postings.

May God Help Us…

The Catholic Church teaches that only those works motivated by love (love of God and love of neighbor) have an impact on our final destination and this love is the fruit of the Holy Spirit given to all those in Christ. Our love for God and neighbor is what should motivate us to avoid those things that offend Him - and potentially cause the loss of our salvation - and to do those things that please God (i.e. keeping the commandments and good works) and will ensure continued enjoyment and growth in that grace and new life we freely received, paid for by the blood of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[OneForTruth]

You cannot lose salvation once attained…those that seemingly fall away were never saved to begin with…

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Perseverance is guaranteed for those that are of the elect…

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Those that have been made partakers with Christ will evidence this in holding fast - as you can see from 1 Corinthians 15:2 above - those that fall away “believed in vain”. It was not that faith granted by God…they are tares that were caught in the dragnet…

Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Falling away is not characteristic of one who is of the elect…

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Hope this helps…the elect will be saved.

May God Help Us All…

 

[guanophore]

You cannot lose salvation once attained…those that seemingly fall away were never saved to begin with…

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Perseverance is guaranteed for those that are of the elect…

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Those that have been made partakers with Christ will evidence this in holding fast - as you can see from 1 Corinthians 15:2 above - those that fall away “believed in vain”. It was not that faith granted by God…they are tares that were caught in the dragnet…

Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Falling away is not characteristic of one who is of the elect…

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Hope this helps…the elect will be saved.

May God Help Us All…

No, OneFor Truth, teaching error is not helpful at all. Presumption against the Spririt of God is not helpful either.

 

[lak611]

You cannot lose salvation once attained…those that seemingly fall away were never saved to begin with…

That is the Calvinist belief. Not all Protestants even believe that. Ask an Arminian.

Perseverance is guaranteed for those that are of the elect…

Only Calvinists believe this.

 

[I_Leatherman]

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Whoever transgresses against and abides not…

Means you must have entered already and you can also leave,

hath not…

means has not, present tense not past tense.

He that abideth…he hath…

Means you must choose continuously to abide continuously in.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

That is the Calvinist belief. Not all Protestants even believe that. Ask an Arminian.

Only Calvinists believe this.

Hi,

Im not either one of those and I believe this as well simply because it is in the bible.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Whoever transgresses against and abides not…

Means you must have entered already and you can also leave,

hath not…

means has not, present tense not past tense.

He that abideth…he hath…

Means you must choose continuously to abide continuously in.

Hi,

Remember there is such a thing as playing church. There are probably more people in the CC and protestant churches that dont truly believe but think they are doing the right thing and are just going through the motions. I believe this is what this verse is talking about. I use to be one of those people. I believe for people like this it all boils down to they dont truly understand what sin really is and the importance of Christ dying on the cross for us. Yeah they learned all the bible stories but they dont learn any deeper then that. It is all very superficial faith and worship.

 

[dessert]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God. Do you not agree that this type of teaching fosters a “works” salvation (works being the means of our salvation?? Truly, the commandments were not given that we might obtain salvation through them but that the knowledge of sin would come by them. That is the first and foremost purpose of the law/commandments. Otherwise, I as a Christian, now love His law and live by it - out of love for Him and to please Him…not as a means of salvation.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Looking for comments.

I feel I get the knowledge of sin by the Holy Spirit reveling to me the truth but for reproof and correction not for condemnation.

We have discussed quite extensively the ‘laws and commandments’

This is the Eucharistic prayer refer to 1 Cor 11;23-28

My narrative states; It follows that the only proper way to celebrate the Eucharist is one that corresponds to Jesus’ intention , which fits with the meaning of HIS COMMAND to reproduce his action in the proper spirit. If the Corintians eat and drink unworthily ,;ie., without grasped and intenalized the meaning of His death for them, they will have to answer for the body and blood,ie;.,will be guilty of sin against the Lord himself.

Examine himself; the greek word is similar to that for ‘approved’ in v.19, which means ‘having been tested and found true’. (yourself not what someone else say)
The self testing reequiered for proper eating involves ‘discerning the body’(29). which, form the context, must mean understanding the sense of Jesus’ death (26), perceiving the imperitave to unity that follows from the fact that Jesus gives himself ( yes He first loved us) to all aaand requires us to repeat His sacrifice in the same spirit (of Love) (18-25).

NAB
Dessert

 

[mikeledes]

You cannot lose salvation once attained…those that seemingly fall away were never saved to begin with…

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Perseverance is guaranteed for those that are of the elect…

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Hebrews 3:14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Those that have been made partakers with Christ will evidence this in holding fast - as you can see from 1 Corinthians 15:2 above - those that fall away “believed in vain”. It was not that faith granted by God…they are tares that were caught in the dragnet…

Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Falling away is not characteristic of one who is of the elect…

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame…
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

Hope this helps…the elect will be saved.

May God Help Us All…

As Catholics, we believe the elect of God will be saved. In other words, those ordained to eternal life will reach that goal. Where we differ from Calvinism is that we do not limit God’s justifyingg grace to those predestined to glory. Rather, we believe that there will be those who genuinely enjoy justifying grace but fail to perservere to the end. These are predestined to grace, but were not predestined to glory. Read John 15:1-2:

**1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.**

You cannot be a branch unless you are genuinley part of the Vine. Note that Jesus clearly states any BRANCH IN ME. If you were never genuinely saved, then you can never be a “branch” in Christ. Also read John 15:6

6I f a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Those “branches” in Christ who do not continue to abide in Christ will be cut off and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation). No one can know with absolute certainty, unless they have a divine revelation, that they are numbered among those predestined to glory.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Church_Militant]

Those that fall away from the faith or that are fruitless - they are tares in light of a few parables spoken by Christ - trees that were not planted by God but by the devil himself and their faith may as well be characterized as the faith of demons - it is vain/empty.

We are never in a position to judge others in that way. I don’t think that any of us is capable of characterizing anyone else’s faith as anything. We are always called to deal remedially with anyone who stumbles and falls.

Galatians 6:1: Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
2: Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

1Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,

unless you believed in vain.Our own faith is the main thing that we should be concerned with in order to inspire others to also do their best and be examples of faithfulness.

 

[dessert]

Hi,

Remember there is such a thing as playing church. There are probably more people in the CC and protestant churches that dont truly believe but think they are doing the right thing and are just going through the motions. I believe this is what this verse is talking about. I use to be one of those people. I believe for people like this it all boils down to they dont truly understand what sin really is and the importance of Christ dying on the cross for us. Yeah they learned all the bible stories but they dont learn any deeper then that. It is all very superficial faith and worship.

Yes continuaously abiding in His grace through first baptism and confession Eucharistic celebration, the sacraments.
Robert said I could borrow his reference as to a river fowing into a sea of salt water and if there is no outlet that water remains stale and dry and does not support any nourichment and does not flow out to others in works and therefore fruit but seek the Eucharist and especially now during this lenten season. God Bless You Dessert Easter blessing

 

[Church_Militant]

…I see that alot here…people saying we are saved by our works - BUT - it must be remembered that our works are characteristic of who we are and show that we have faith - and by that faith we are justified…

Matthew 12:33 "***Either make the tree good ***

and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; **for the tree is known by its fruit.**34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

Our works are those that flow from genuine faith…Consider this though…these works are not merely expressions of faith, they are also very important acts of obedience to the commands of Our Lord, and Matthew 25 31-46 does point out that we will indeed be judged based upon those works, so they are a vital part of our salvation.

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

That is what it means in James when it says that we are justified by our works - our works SHOW that the tree is good and not corrupt. Out works show that we are the genuine children of the Father and He is thereby glorified.

I agree…and these works are how we show that we are a good tree. Bearing fruit is part of the process of being a new creation. Is one saved without obedience to Christ? (Rhetorical question.) Of course not.

What about the hypocrites who are striving according to the flesh to earn salvation by external works where they are really hollow nothings. There are the true children of God out there are there are those that are tares…

Does that passage (Matthew 13:24-30) tell us anywhere that this is a concern of ours as wheat? Not so long as no goofy field hand comes along and attempts to uproot the tares before the harvest because then he risks our lives to get to them.

By tares is probably meant a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat. But it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior and hurtful kind. Probably it comes near to what we mean by chess. It was extremely difficult to separate it from the genuine wheat, on account of its similarity while growing. Thus it aptly represented hypocrites in the church. Strongly resembling Christians in their experience, and, in some respects, their lives, it is impossible to distinguish them from genuine Christians, nor can they be separated until it is done by the great Searcher of hearts at the day of judgment.: An enemy–the devil–hath done it. And nowhere has he shown profounder cunning, or done more to adulterate the purity of the gospel,

I don’t know if I agree with this particular message that you are preaching (and you are. ) You draw some conclusions that are outside the text.

The fact is that this is not our problem, but the Lord’s, right? We are called to live the way we know we are supposed to.

Frankly…I don’t know a single soul who has ever told me that they expected entry to heaven based on their goodness without Christ.

I will also remind you that election of the elect was performed before the foundation of the world…before any of us ever did anything good or bad.

Which in the context of the New Testament is all men. (John 12:32, Draw all men…1st Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”)

The election of the elect is purely by grace and not by works…

Perhaps we do not have the wisdom to understand how this works. This has always been my problem with those who wish to believe in eternal security/OSAS. There are other passages of the Word of God that contradict the beliefs that they have constructed around other verses.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

 

[Church_Militant]

Predestination is in scripture and I, therefore, believe in it. Why bother?? - because He that called me has called me to be holy…

But holiness does not mean believing that you have all knowledge understand all mysteries (1st Corinthians 13:2), and we don’t, do we?

1 Peter 1:15

I have been bought with a price - therefore I must glorify God in my body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

It seems to me that, based on your message (specifically referring to “why bother?”) that we are supposed to be working our way to heaven. I mean, why bother doing good works if you are predesitined or chosen before the foundation of the world? Are you doing works to earn heaven? That is what this very thread has spoken against. Empty yourself of your own righteousness in that case, repent, and turn to Christ as Lord and Savior. His merit is my merit.

As I pointed out…we are all predestined to be called and drawn to salvation. The New Testament plainly says that. I believe that those who work to wrestle with this err in trying to define something that God has not given us such full understanding of.

Romans 10:3 KJV 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And all we have to do to overcome that is to present the Gospel again…and again …and again.

So, then - I say - I bother because Christ bothered to die for me. He was not forced to do it…I mean, why bother, Jesus?? Because He loved us so much. And I love Him because He first loved me.

I’m pretty sure that I understand what you are saying…but, have you ever noticed that the only people who ever get into predestination are those who lay claim to having been predestined?

I mean I never hear a guy say that he is not a believer because God has predestined him for hell.

 

[Church_Militant]

Okay - here is the implication of the logic that was brought forward. Why bother doing good works if you are predestined? If you have assurance of salvation, why do good works? The implications of this statement show a motiviation to earn salvation through good works - why bother?? This is easy to see…I did not say that is what Catholicism teaches - I said this is the implication of the statement. What is the motiviation??? Are you motiviated to do good works because it earns salvation - that is the implication. Not so on my part…again - I love Him because He first loved me.

Now, whether or not Catholicism teaches this or not, I do not know, BUT, I have not heard this type of statement from this person only, but also from many others in this forum as I have perused the information people are placing in their postings.

I think the problem here is that predestination, as taught by some n-Cs makes no sense in the context of the rest of the New Testament. It seems that they are teaching that it doesn’t matter whether one lives a moral life, or that even obedience to Christ is irrelevant and if so then in the final analysis it really doesn’t make any difference what a person does and all the rest of the Word of God is made null and void. That just simply isn’t the Gospel that I read in my Bible nor the one that I hear and believe as a Catholic.

Personally, I think most of what I have read about predestination is misbegotten theory based on the essential doctrinal error of Sola Scriptura.