"Works" Salvation?

[mikeledes]

Since we know that we cannot obligate God in any way by our “works” as Paul clearly teaches in Romans, what exactly are you talking about when you say that Catholics are “doing something to get something”?

Neither the Bible nor the Church teaches this.

It seems that meptri is more interested in attacking his own understanding of Catholicism - and telling us what he/she thinks we believe - instead of actually understanding what we are trying to say.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Mepatri, what will ultimately happen to a Christian who is unproductive, who is “blind and nearsighted”, having “forgotten that his sins were cleansed?” The Bible is clear on that:

John 15:1-2,

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

**6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **

The unproductive “branch” will be cut off and thrown into the fire. You cannot be a “branch in Christ” unless you have been genuinely justified. Otherwise, you could not be incorporated into Christ (“the Vine”). If you were not genuinely saved, then you were never a “branch” to begin with. How can you be “taken away” from something you were never a part of?

Enjoyment of eternal life in the world to come is promised to those of the justified who perserve in doing good to the end:

Romans 2:6-7

6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature ]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

God Bless,
Michael

I also reaffirm whay t I said in this post.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

How can you look to Karl Keating, or John Martignoni, or Patrick Madrid, as do hundreds of thousands of Catholics do each day? None of these men are infallible - but they teach.

No one is saying that Sproul creates doctrine.

Really?

Let me ask you this: Where do the Wesleyans and Lutherans get their names? Who was John Smyth?

You get my point…Protestant preachers create denominations. Catholic apologists point back to the See of Peter. Big difference.

His teachings are aurhority based on the Bible. Unlike the Catholic Church, which centers its authority on the Magisterium.

His INTERPRETATION of the Bible. Not all Protestants agree with Sproul.

Catholic authority comes from Christ who told his first disciples, “He who hears you hears me; whoever rejects you rejects me.” (Luke 10:16)

No - his teachings are based on the Bible - which he references time and again. That would be in contrast to your teachers - the Pope included, when they constantly reference their own declarations, or the Catechism.

In quoting both the scripture and the declarations of the Church which have been made in the past, the Popes reveal that they are faithful to both scripture and the tradition of the Church - just as Paul commanded when he said, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) Note the bias in the Protestant NIV which wouldn’t even accurately translate the word “traditions” and used “teachings” instead.

By appealing to past teachings of the Church, the Popes reveal that they are LIMITED by what has already been handed on. Thus, the doctrine of infallibility is a protection against novelty - a protection that is not at work among non-Catholic denominations.

He teaches from the Bible. It’s simple. Also, I do not “rely” on Sproul

Nor can you do so since he is only a man like yourself.

as you would rely on the Pope, or Bishops, or priests for your salvation. I can learn a lot from Sproul and teachers like him, but ultimately I have to be responsible for my own salvation. I can look to no man to be a representitive of Christ for me, except Christ Himself.

And this is the essence of Protestantism - every man for himself. You are truly “sola” - alone - travelling across a vast ocean in a tiny raft tossed about by every wind and wave of doctrine. Yet, God prepared the Church to ferry you safely home to the promised land. Why have you spurned it?

(Edited By Moderator)The Church does not forbid marriages. Those who choose to respond to God’s call to the priesthood forego marriage willingly. Are you suggesting that any many is forced to become a priest against his will? Or have you forgotten that the Apostle Paul wrote that “It is good for a man not to marry” and “I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.” and again “An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided.”

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[WynCatholic]

I’ve read it - I got it. I have been saved by grace through faith.

The works performed in verse 10 are by those who are already “created in Christ Jesus” - who are “God’s workmanship.” It is the already “saved by grace through faith” in Christ’s work on their behalf that are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” never BY those good works.

I get it…it’s all right there. Salvation is never based on our works of any kind. Only His.

What You have said here is, I believe, completely consistent with Catholic teaching. Mediate on this: your union with Christ and how you [and all you do] are Christ’s work of grace. Try to see how the the scriptures might actually be teaching the idea of our particpating in the work of Christ by His grace working out in us.

wayne, (who used to caricature/misunderstand catholic teaching like you.)

 

[guanophore]

It seems that meptri is more interested in attacking his own understanding of Catholicism - and telling us what he/she thinks we believe - instead of actually understanding what we are trying to say.

God Bless,
Michael

Perhaps it is sufficient for meptri to know that his understanding of Catholicism is different from what Catholicism really is?

 

[dessert]

.

The adding to the faith the RCC talks about is not “goodness.” Nor is is knowlege, self-control or any of the other points listed. It’s sacremental works that have nothing to do with these things. It is not adding “goodness”, or “knowledge”, or “self-control” to add grace to yourself through receiving the sacrement of the Mass. Rather it’s doing something to get something. This is very different, and your example is not a good one.

You should go read the Beatitudes in Mathew. This was Jesus sermon. The flow of the Spirit will flow through us unless we have a blockage , ie; hate , uncaring, ignorance ,apathy , no knowledge not seeking truth not speaking truth , no control, chaos, Mass adds all the goodness knowledge and self control through the celebration of the sacrifice and the ressuredtion as we partake of all the goodnes nJesus Christ. You are taking into yourself His Body and Spirit in communion. Do you agree? Dessert

 

[mikeledes]

What You have said here is, I believe, completely consistent with Catholic teaching. Mediate on this: your union with Christ and how you [and all you do] are Christ’s work of grace. Try to see how the the scriptures might actually be teaching the idea of our particpating in the work of Christ by His grace working out in us.

wayne, (who used to caricature/misunderstand catholic teaching like you.)

I’ve discussed this with him before. All I can say is pray for him. :byzsoc: He would make a good Catholic Christian.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I’ve discussed this with him before. All I can say is pray for him. :byzsoc: He would make a good Catholic Christian.

God Bless,
Michael

I quite agree, Michael. There are SO MANY Catholics that desperately need to understand salvation by grace the way Apophasis does. He is solid on that point!

 

[dessert]

I’ve read it - I got it. I have been saved by grace through faith.

The works performed in verse 10 are by those who are already “created in Christ Jesus” - who are “God’s workmanship.” It is the already “saved by grace through faith” in Christ’s work on their behalf that are subsequently “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” never BY those good works.

I get it…it’s all right there. Salvation is never based on our works of any kind. Only His.

Almost 1000 posts later but we have had a wonderful, exciting and enlightening moment in our lives. serious
:grouphug: :extrahappy:

I just had to use those again dessert

 

[mikeledes]

I quite agree, Michael. There are SO MANY Catholics that desperately need to understand salvation by grace the way Apophasis does. He is solid on that point!

That’s why we have a wonderful site like Catholic Answers. Catholics and Protestants can learn about what the Catholic Church really teaches.

God Bless,
Michael

Note to Catholic Answers: I accept cash or money orders. No checks please.

 

[WynCatholic]

]
…those who have been born of God are characterized by being loving. This is an evidence of salvation.
]

May God Show Us Truth…

The Catholic understanding is that it is not mere **evidence, **but fruit [that has life and value] of His grace in a life that is in communion with the Vine.
We participate in the Life of the Vine. our justification, sanctification and glorification are all the work of Christ in our lives.
Our works, our lives are living sacrifices to God,[Rom 12:1-2] Valued and appreciated by Him, because they are fruit of the life of His Son, the only source of life in the creation.
We participate in the saving work of Christ Jesus, not by passively receiving [like a parasite], but by actively being His love,His goodness, His mercy, His peace, His joy, His truth to all we meet, in all we do… in all we write.
And when we fail in this task we repent and turn back to Christ’s way, seek His forgiveness and grace and get up and continue to bear the fruit of His grace in our lives.
His grace is always available, always sufficient, always freely given.
That is Catholic teaching. and Catholic Spirituality.
Please reread the scriptures again - not just the verses, the letters themselves. They naturally fit with Catholic teaching,

Wayne, who for 46.75 years also misunderstood Catholic scripture teaching and doctrine. [And who will be 50 this August]

 

[mikeledes]

The Catholic understanding is that it is not mere **evidence, **but fruit [that has life and value]

of His grace in a life that is in communion with the Vine.
We participate in the Life of the Vine. our justification, sanctification and glorification are all the work of Christ in our lives.
Our works, our lives are living sacrifices to God,[Rom 12:1-2] Valued and appreciated by Him, because they are fruit of the life of His Son, the only source of life in the creation.
We participate in the saving work of Christ Jesus, not by passively receiving [like a parasite], but by actively being His love,His goodness, His mercy, His peace, His joy, His truth to all we meet, in all we do… in all we write.
And when we fail in this task we repent and turn back to Christ’s way, seek His forgiveness and grace and get up and continue to bear the fruit of His grace in our lives.
His grace is always available, always sufficient, always freely given.
That is Catholic teaching. and Catholic Spirituality.
Please reread the scriptures again - not just the verses, the letters themselves. They naturally fit with Catholic teaching,

Wayne, who for 46.75 years also misunderstood Catholic scripture teaching and doctrine. [And who will be 50 this August]



And if we fail to persevere in bearing fruit, we will be cut off the Vine, as stated in John 15, and not go to :harp:

Let me give you a belated welcome to the Church :hug1:

God Bless,
Michael

 

[WynCatholic]

Yes - Peter. How ironic that the RCC bases the whole of its faith on Peter - the very one who betrayed Christ. Even today, they follow men who are “wolves in sheeps clothing.” You let them assualt your children, hide the fact that they did so, and you explain it away as “a few bad apples”, or “it is truly grievous”. Then you continue to trust your eternal life to these men. Truly unbelievable. It’s not so much what the bad apples did, as much as it’s what those who manage the barrell did not do. Your leadership failed, and they let the wolves into the flock.

A few scattered points:

• uhm judas is the one who betrayed Jesus.
• Peter denied three times and repented, and brought the scattered disciples back together. fulfilling Jesus’ prayer for him and the disciples Luke 22:31-34.
• Jesus predicted bad shepherds and wolves in the church, even the apostolic church had to deal with the same.
• Our Eternal life is entrusted to Jesus Christ and His Eternal sacrifice and our being united with him in all we are.
• you seem so filled with accusations and judging. be aware that by your own accusations you judge your own relation with God.
• beware of ‘railing accusations’ (jude)
• note the nature of false teachers described the the NT letters.
• The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify. Some prayerful personal time with the scriptures alone might be advised.
• RC Sproul would disagree with the theology reflected in the end part of your post, by the way.

may Jesus’ peace and love and joy draw you to Himself.

In God’s Love, Wayne -who [also] slandered Catholics very much in his yournger days.

 

[WynCatholic]

And if we fail to persevere in bearing fruit, we will be cut off the Vine, as stated in John 15, and not go to :harp:

Let me give you a belated welcome to the Church :hug1:

God Bless,
Michael

Thank You for the welcome!!
BTW, your posts are models of wisdom, charity and restraint.
… I mean that in a good way.
My naturally sardonic nature wanted to add: “the only thing to determine is whether they are models to emulate or avoid”
fortunately that didn’t get added…
then …
in that way…
with that intent…
errr…

May you be filled with His Joy

Wayne, who is seeing in life the scriptural pattern of '‘now’… and ‘not yet’" . It is a call to realize the joy of living in anticipation of God’s blessings. And to reflect that in the natural law of human nature, that laughter and humour is all about '‘now’… and ‘not yet’".

 

[mikeledes]

Thank You for the welcome!!
BTW, your posts are models of wisdom, charity and restraint.
… I mean that in a good way.
My naturally sardonic nature wanted to add: “the only thing to determine is whether they are models to emulate or avoid”
fortunately that didn’t get added…
then …
in that way…
with that intent…
errr…

May you be filled with His Joy

Wayne, who is seeing in life the scriptural pattern of '‘now’… and ‘not yet’" . It is a call to realize the joy of living in anticipation of God’s blessings. And to reflect that in the natural law of human nature, that laughter and humour is all about '‘now’… and ‘not yet’".

Thank you for your compliment and the blessing. May God richly bless you.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mepatri]

A few scattered points:

• uhm judas is the one who betrayed Jesus.

That is scattered! Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels. Here is a list of synonyms for your edification. They can be found at dictionary.com

Synonyms for betrayed: abandon, be unfaithful, bluff, break faith, break promise, break trust, break with, commit treason, cross, deceive, deliver up*, delude, desert, double-cross, finger*, forsake, inform against, inform on, jilt, knife*, let down, mislead, sell, sell out, take in*, trick, turn in, turn informer

• Peter denied three times and repented, and brought the scattered disciples back together. fulfilling Jesus’ prayer for him and the disciples Luke 22:31-34.

It can be argued that Christ told all of the apostles that Satan was after each of them - not just Judas, whom he’d already taken. The plural pronoun umav shows that those words were not spoken to Peter alone.

Paul publically rebuked Peter on his less than accurate teachings. Why? Why does the Catholic Churh insist on Peter? It’s because they misunderstand.

• Jesus predicted bad shepherds and wolves in the church, even the apostolic church had to deal with the same.
• Our Eternal life is entrusted to Jesus Christ and His Eternal sacrifice and our being united with him in all we are.

Yes - and James (as well as others) told us what to do with those wolves. Are you united with Him? Should not protecting and feeding the flock be of our utmost concern? (Edited By Moderator)

• you seem so filled with accusations and judging. be aware that by your own accusations you judge your own relation with God.
• beware of ‘railing accusations’ (jude)

(Edited By Moderator)​

note the nature of false teachers described the the NT letters.

• The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify. Some prayerful personal time with the scriptures alone might be advised.

The nature of the false teachers is clear. I’m not sure what you mean when you say "The predominant theme describes behaviour and attitudes that you advocate and exemplify"

It sounds like you’re just trying to be pedantic. (Edited By Moderator)

• RC Sproul would disagree with the theology reflected in the end part of your post, by the way.

How so? Blank statements aren’t very convincing.

 

[Milliardo]

That is scattered! Peter denied (betrayed) Christ three times. Read the Gospels.

You forget to mention that Peter was also given a chance to redeem himself three times. Read John for that one.

Paul publically rebuked Peter on his less than accurate teachings. Why? Why does the Catholic Churh insist on Peter? It’s because they misunderstand.

This passage is often used as a proof-text to deny the primacy of Peter. This is funny. To give an analogy, the President can be publicly scrutinized and even rebuked for whatever he said or did; does that then mean that he ceases to be President?

 

[mikeledes]

Mepatri is so intent on discrediting the Papacy that he focuses on Peter’s faults, forgetting that Peter was the first to speak to the crowd at Pentecost and wrote two books of the Bible. He also forgot Matthew 16:18 and John 20:15-18.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I can look to no man to be a representitive of Christ for me, except Christ Himself.

Yes - Peter. How ironic that the RCC bases the whole of its faith on Peter - the very one who betrayed Christ. Even today, they follow men who are “wolves in sheeps clothing.” You let them assualt your children, hide the fact that they did so, and you explain it away as “a few bad apples”, or “it is truly grievous”. Then you continue to trust your eternal life to these men. Truly unbelievable. It’s not so much what the bad apples did, as much as it’s what those who manage the barrell did not do. Your leadership failed, and they let the wolves into the flock.

Who has exhibited “branded consciences” as they seek to minimize the destruction of the church by turning their heads as they say “it’s truly grievous”, all the while continuing to participate, and fund the church’s legal defense fund coffers with their offerings?

Wake up my friend.

If you are one of the victims of abuse, mepatri, there is counseling available for you. You do not need to continue to live in resentment and pain because of what happened. You are right, it is reprehensible, but Jesus is bigger than the problem, as you seem to know. Forgiveness will start the healing happening.

 

[mikeledes]

Okay - you don’t judge. That’s a shame. You don’t judge that homosexuality in the church is wrong? You don’t judge that raping little boys is wrong? You don’t judge that covering up those actions is wrong? You don’t judge that protecting those priests that did such things is wrong?

Mepatri, do you belong to any particular denomination? Are all of the members of your church sinless? If your pastor were caught in adultery, would you stop believing what you believe?

Please stop making general and demeaning statements against the Catholic Church. Not every priest “rapes boys” and not every priest or bishop was involved in the scandal.

You seem a little too angry. Have you been hugged lately? :hug1: I hope you feel better now. May God bless you.

God Bless,
Michael