"Works" Salvation?

[OneForTruth]

To avoid duplication, I would advise you to go back to the start of this thread, and read from the beginning. You will find these issues addressed in detail. Jesus came to fulfil the law, not to abolish it. He taught that we should obey Him, and obey the commandments. Catholics know what to obey by following the teachings of the church.

So - am I understanding this correctly…that we are justified by faith alone but only by that faith which is accompanied by good works or what people would call living or saving faith (which is a gift from God)?

 

[mikeledes]

So - am I understanding this correctly…that we are justified by faith alone but only by that faith which is accompanied by good works or what people would call living or saving faith (which is a gift from God)?

Faith is a gift of God. It is not something that we simply will into existence. Works done without faith are worthless. The good works of a Christian ultimately find their source in the Holy Spirit. However, Chrsitians are not automatons. They can cooperate by surrendering their wills to the Holy Spirit and be led by Him or they can resist the Holy Spirit and sin (i.e. grieve the Holy Spirit). The fact that genuine Christians sin demonstrates that our will can, at times, work against the impulses of the Holy Spirit.

I refrain from using “justification by faith alone” because that phrase is loaded with meaning that contradicts what we believe the Bible says.

James 2:24

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

However, we do believe that we cannot change ourselves from ungodly to godly simply by following the moral law of God, giving to charity, going to church, etc. So in a broader sense, the passage you quote covers any attempt to make oneself righteous before God on the basis of the works one does, including observance of the moral law of God. Good works must follow after becoming a child of God. We are made righteous in order to live righteously. We do not live righteously in order to be made righteous.

Catholics also have a different understanding of what justification is. We do not see it as a mere declarative act, but as a transformative act as well. What God declares we become by the creative power of His word. At justification, we become a new creation, all the old things having passed away. Since Protestants see it as a one time declarative act, they misundertand what Catholics mean and think we are arguing that we first become righteous before God by our works.

God Bless,
Michael

P.S. I will not be online for the next couple of days.

 

[RNRobert]

When the Bible says below that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law, what is he saying?

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The above is saying we are justified by faith totally separate from anything in the law, correct? This includes the moral law too, correct? 10 Commandments? Ceremonial law? All or part of?

Just looking for some feedback.

Thanks.

I believe he was talking about circumcision, the temple sacrifices, etc. I don’t believe he was talking about the moral law- he ordered the Corinthians to excommunicate the man sleeping with his stepmother (1 Cor 5), stated that those who neglected their families were worse than unbelievers (1 Tim 5:8) , and in place listed certain sins whose practitioners would not inherit the kingdom of God. In Acts 26:20 he mentioned how he preached the need for repentance and to "show one’s repentance by one’s deeds. So, I don’t think Paul was teaching the “faith alone” doctrine as espoused by Protestants.

 

[WynCatholic]

So - am I understanding this correctly…that we are justified by faith alone but only by that faith which is accompanied by good works or what people would call living or saving faith (which is a gift from God)?

yes… but the faith isn’t alone then, so the insistence upon saying “faith alone” is more of an evangelical shiboleth: to assure the listener that we ain’t catholic!
I have it in my sermon notes from 20 years ago. I said: “We are saved by faith alone, yet that faith is never alone” (I wasn’t Catholic then) I wasn’t even close to being Catholic, so you’re probably safe for now )
We cannot live by faith if the faith is not in God. When we live by faith, we are saved by God. If there are no works there is no life and Life only comes from God.
Heb 11:1-6
Faith does.
But works that are from God’s grace are more than mere 'evidence of life" like fogging a mirror or heart beats, or [in cases other than my own:] brain waves. The scriptures and Catholic teaching regard graced works as precious jewels, gold etc of lasting worth and eternal value. Although Tainted & flawed in their implementation, they, through Christ Jesus are our offering to God. Romans 12, Hebrews 12

 

[guanophore]

So - am I understanding this correctly…that we are justified by faith alone but only by that faith which is accompanied by good works or what people would call living or saving faith (which is a gift from God)?

As you will see, if you take my advice to read the thread, the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith. Faith is a quality of the human soul that involves the intellect, will, and divine inspiration. Our faith is inspired by such things as hearing the gospel, and then our intellect gives assent (agreement) to what is heard, and then we decide with our will to place our trust in Jesus, by whose work on the cross we are saved. The Holy Spirit then works in our hearts to bear the fruits that befit repentance. Grace comes from God, faith comes from people. The two working together produce salvation.

 

[Linkowski]

I think you will find that as we go into Romans 4, 5, 6, and 7 where Paul begins to speak of justification by faith, you will find he is speaking of the entire law including the moral law and the 10 commandments.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know, through the commandments what sin, in fact is…Paul includes this statement in Romans 7…

Romans 7:7 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

You cannot say that we are justified by faith AND part of the law, namely the 10 commandments. We are justified by faith alone.

Secondly, to include the passage from James 2 is also a problem. This would draw a major contradiction to what Paul is saying since James is speaking of works of love which, we know, love whether it be of God or of fellow man hangs on the 10 commandments as we are taught in the scriptures. But, we can make the conclusion that “justified” in James hapter 2 is not the sense of “justified” that is being used in Romans 3, 4, 5, 6…etc.

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 **to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. **3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1344

You can see that, in the book of Romans, and specifically speaking in the areas of ROmans that we have been looking at, definition number 3 of dikaioo is what is in view - since we are speaking in Romans of justification versus condemnation…

Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

However from the text of James 2, we see that the definition number 2 of justified is in view…

James 2:17-24 KJV 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We are speaking here of what true living faith is and that he was SHOWN to be righteous. It certainly is not spekaing of justified in the court setting (Before God)…

Romans 4:2-3 KJV 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But in James 2 he is speaking of justification as seen by men as the context reads. We are justified by faith alone as you can see.

 

[guanophore]

I think you will find that as we go into Romans 4, 5, 6, and 7 where Paul begins to speak of justification by faith, you will find he is speaking of the entire law including the moral law and the 10 commandments.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know, through the commandments what sin, in fact is…Paul includes this statement in Romans 7…

Romans 7:7 KJV 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

You cannot say that we are justified by faith AND part of the law, namely the 10 commandments. We are justified by faith alone.

Why is this such an issue for you, Link? Is it because you don’t want to follow the commandments?

Secondly, to include the passage from James 2 is also a problem. This would draw a major contradiction to what Paul is saying since James is speaking of works of love which, we know, love whether it be of God or of fellow man hangs on the 10 commandments as we are taught in the scriptures. But, we can make the conclusion that “justified” in James hapter 2 is not the sense of “justified” that is being used in Romans 3, 4, 5, 6…etc.

I am not sure I understand this paragraph. How can you exclude part of the scripture? If including it poses a “problem” then it is because the conclusions you are drawing from it are other than what is meant! You also say “we know”. Who is this royal “we”? I think you have drawn an eroneous conclusion here. James’ “works of love” do not "hang on the 20 commmandments! Works of God that proceed from faith are based on the saving grace of Jesus Christ, not upon the law or the commandments. The ONLY way that Christians can demonstrate a faith working through love is by grace, through His shed blood on the cross.

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. 2 **to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. **3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

Romans 8:33-34 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Are you laboring under some misapprehension that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified in some other way besides the death of Christ on the Cross? If this is true, then you have been wrongly informed about what the Catholic Church teaches.

James 2:17-24 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We are speaking here of what true living faith is and that he was SHOWN to be righteous. It certainly is not spekaing of justified in the court setting (Before God)…

What makes you think not? Are you saying, then that Abraham was not justified? That his actions were not proof of a saving faith?

Romans 4:2-3 KJV 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

But in James 2 he is speaking of justification as seen by men as the context reads. We are justified by faith alone as you can see.

I guess I cannot see the problem, Link. Do you believe that you are not responsible to show works that befit repentance?

 

[Linkowski]

Why is this such an issue for you, Link? Is it because you don’t want to follow the commandments?

I am not sure I understand this paragraph. How can you exclude part of the scripture? If including it poses a “problem” then it is because the conclusions you are drawing from it are other than what is meant! You also say “we know”. Who is this royal “we”? I think you have drawn an eroneous conclusion here. James’ “works of love” do not "hang on the 20 commmandments! Works of God that proceed from faith are based on the saving grace of Jesus Christ, not upon the law or the commandments. The ONLY way that Christians can demonstrate a faith working through love is by grace, through His shed blood on the cross.

Are you laboring under some misapprehension that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified in some other way besides the death of Christ on the Cross? If this is true, then you have been wrongly informed about what the Catholic Church teaches.

What makes you think not? Are you saying, then that Abraham was not justified? That his actions were not proof of a saving faith?

I guess I cannot see the problem, Link. Do you believe that you are not responsible to show works that befit repentance?

Please be kind in your postings. I will respond to your posting later.

Thanks.

 

[Linkowski]

Why is this such an issue for you, Link? Is it because you don’t want to follow the commandments?

On the contrary, I have to concur with Paul in saying…Romans 7:22 KJV 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I am not sure I understand this paragraph. How can you exclude part of the scripture? If including it poses a “problem” then it is because the conclusions you are drawing from it are other than what is meant! You also say “we know”. Who is this royal “we”? I think you have drawn an eroneous conclusion here. James’ “works of love” do not "hang on the 20 commmandments! Works of God that proceed from faith are based on the saving grace of Jesus Christ, not upon the law or the commandments. The ONLY way that Christians can demonstrate a faith working through love is by grace, through His shed blood on the cross.

I believe we are taught by the Lord…

Matthew 22:37-39 KJV 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The 10 commandments are summed up as love…

Romans 13:10 KJV 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Galatians 5:14 KJV 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

James is speaking of works of love when he explains how one completely disregards the need of another and sends them on their way. So, if James is saying that we are justified by works in the way that Paul is saying that we are justified by faith APART FROM works (which include works of love in accordance with the 10 commandments), they would be in contradiction with eachother. Again, James is speaking of justification in the sense of the following emboldened definition whereas Paul was speaking of justification in the sense of the third definition…

1344 δικαιόω [dikaioo /dik·ah·yo·o/] v. From 1342; TDNT 2:211; TDNTA 168; GK 1467; 40 occurrences; AV translates as “justify” 37 times, “be freed” once, “be righteous” once, and “justifier” once. 1 to render righteous or such he ought to be. **2 to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered. **3 to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be.

Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Test of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1344

Are you laboring under some misapprehension that the Catholic Church teaches that we are justified in some other way besides the death of Christ on the Cross? If this is true, then you have been wrongly informed about what the Catholic Church teaches.

I do not believe that they teach that we are justified by faith alone. Scripture , in fact, does.

What makes you think not? Are you saying, then that Abraham was not justified? That his actions were not proof of a saving faith?

He certainly was justified…Romans 4 speaks of his justification before God (by faith) while James is speaking merely of how his works SHOWED that he was just but before the eyes of men.

I guess I cannot see the problem, Link. Do you believe that you are not responsible to show works that befit repentance?

I must bear the cross daily and suffer for His sake. I must go and proclaim the gospel and live a holy life that is pleasing to God which is my reasonable service and all by God’s grace…not to be justified but because I love Him (because He first loved me). I already have been justifed by faith…

Romans 5:1 NAS95 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 6:11 NAS95 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[Robert902]

I was infralaparian and regarded supralapsarians as scary. which might you be?
either way, i think both gutted the idea of a free will to obey or not and turned it into a concept of free agency.
Freedom, free will and the sovereignty and imutability of God must take into account the nature of the image of God in man, man as a living soul, the nature of the fall and the ‘curse’, what it is to be ‘in Christ’ ,what it means to be partakeer in the life of God, and what it means to be like him for we shall see him as He is. these concepts were referenced constantly in the NT writings. and apparently was to have an enormous impact upon the lives of the NT Cristians, for Paul based so much of his ‘therefores’ upon these issues.
This all of course also impacts on the value of our works in our new covenant in Christ.

“Before the foundation of the world”. That’s when election was determined according to God’s word. It applies to our salvation, not day to day choices, like which tie should I wear, or what time should I get up in the morning. This is a difficult teaching for many people, because they think that they need to do something to earn their salvation. Salvation is a gift. Jesus last words on the cross were “it is finished.” What did He mean by these words? I’m dying now? Of course not, that was obvious. He meant that the payment for our sins was complete. Nothing you or I can do to add to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. “The wages of sin is death”…our sin, Jesus death.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 "Test all things, hold fast what is good
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Robert902:

Nothing you or I can do to add to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

But the Cross did not remove our free will. And though we cannot add to the work of the Cross, we can subtract from it by continuing to sin. Nothing impure can approach the throne of God. Sin is impure. Hence the need for ongoing confession during life and Purgatory during death.

 

[Linkowski]

We only have so much free will…some seem to speak of it as if we can do anything we want. God is sovereign but man is not autonomous where he can just do whatever he wants. Otherwise, God is not God. Regardless, the elect were chosen from before the foundation of the world and will be saved. God has foreordained it and planned it…not only the end of it (ultimate salvation) but the means of it (perseverance of faith). A very good illustration of this point is in Acts 27…

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: **for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. **23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

This is a decree of God that WILL NOT fail…you will be saved, all of you. This was foreordained of God. BUT, there is a means by which this will take place which was ALSO foreordained by God…look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

These men could have gotten out of the boat via free will…BUT…God foreordained that they would be the means by which all ont he ship were saved.

God says that the elect will be saved…they must persevere in faith and they will. God has ordained the end and the means…

Ephesians 2:10 NAS95 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, ***which God prepared beforehand ***so that we would walk in them.

Those who fall away were not one of the elect - one of the true called out ones.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS95 1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

I would also like to remind all that when you speak of a person “falling away” through sin…ultimately, it is unbelief. Unbelief is manifested outwardly as sin.

And those who fell in the wilderness were explained this way…

Hebrews 4:1-2 KJV 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them:* but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith *in them that heard it.

That was the difference - they were never saved to begin with…oh, they heard the message and acknowledged it but they were not saved.

2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Those who have become partakers of Christ WILL PERSEVERE…

Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we ***have become ***partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Read that scripture carefully and see what it says. Do not try to turn it around to make it say anything that it is not saying.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

I did not say that they would not be saved.

I said that their salvation would not remove their free will.

And I said their intact free will could still remove their salvation due to choosing to continue in sin. This continuance in sin indicates a need for ongoing confession in life and Purgatory in death, since nothing impure can approach the throne of God.

 

[Linkowski]

I have been washed and am clean every whit…justified…and only need foot washings to keep my walk with God close…One who is in Christ has the righteousness of Christ imputed to him and is being sanctified by the Spirit and the Word…

John 13:8-10 KJV 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Hebrews 10:12-18 KJV 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Those that are Christ’s have His righteousness and will not come into condemnation but have passed from death to life…

*John 5:24 KJV 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 8:1 KJV 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:33 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.*

 

[Janet_S]

“Before the foundation of the world”. That’s when election was determined according to God’s word. It applies to our salvation, not day to day choices, like which tie should I wear, or what time should I get up in the morning. This is a difficult teaching for many people, because they think that they need to do something to earn their salvation. Salvation is a gift. Jesus last words on the cross were “it is finished.” What did He mean by these words? I’m dying now? Of course not, that was obvious. He meant that the payment for our sins was complete. Nothing you or I can do to add to the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. “The wages of sin is death”…our sin, Jesus death.

God Bless,
Robert
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eph 5:20 "Test all things, hold fast what is good
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here’s another perspective on Jesus’ words "it is finished."

The Hunt for the Fourth Cup
By Scott Hahn

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

AT LAST I had an answer to my question. **It was the Passover **that was now finished. More precisely, it was Jesus’ transformation of the Passover sacrifice of the Old Covenant into the Eucharistic sacrifice of the New Covenant. I learned Scripture teaches that the Passover sacrifice of the New Covenant began in the upper room with the institution of the Eucharist, not merely with Jesus being crucified on Calvary, as I was taught and had been teaching. In Jesus’ mind, his Eucharistic sacrifice as the Passover lamb of the New Covenant was not finished until Calvary. In sum, Calvary begins with the Eucharist and the Eucharist ends with Calvary. It is all of one piece.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

In sum, Calvary begins with the Eucharist and the Eucharist ends with Calvary. It is all of one piece.

What happens to the Eucharist at the Resurrection?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

What…justifieth.

Sins already committed. Particularly original sin. Are you saying that sin is impossible after salvation? That is, one can be Baptised on Sunday and on Monday let the air out of his neighbour’s tires thus causing him to be late for his court appearance so that he speeds and runs over his Uncle Herbivore’s foot?

Is that not a sin? A sin committed after Salvation?

How can that sin be removed? Oh! Oh! Ask me! By confession during life and Purgatory during death?

 

[Linkowski]

You need to understand Justification by faith alone which I have presented from the scriptures. You must also understand the transforming regerenation that takes place at salvation…

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And you must understand that at salvation, the law that the individual is condemned under now becomes removed (from the standpoint of the penalty) and he is no longer condemned but now justified…

Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

As long as you are alive you can be charged with a crime…but, if you are dead, then you cannot be charged with a crime, correct? Well…

2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, ***you also were made to die to the Law ***through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We are released from the penalty of the law and have been justified by faith…that we might now go forth and serve the Lord freely.

Jesus is my Advocate…

1 John 2:1 NAS95 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

This can also be qualified by Paul’s statements…

Romans 6:1 NAS95 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Romans 6:15 NAS95 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Is not this the same question that rings from you? You ask it because you see the point that I am trying to make; that we are under grace and cannot be charged with sin. You say, no way!!! That cannot possibly be…well, Paul qualifies this truth that we cannot be charged with sin by the very statements in Romans 6 that I have just showed you.

 

[RNRobert]

You need to understand Justification by faith alone which I have presented from the scriptures.

But James specifically states we are *not *justified by faith alone.

As a Baptist I was taught faith alone, but as I read the Bible, it clearly teaches that our faith is useless unless works follow: see the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25- salvation or damnation was based on their deeds. It was my study of Scripture that led me to abandon Sola Fide.
Paul is talking about the ceremonial law, not the moral law. “I was hungry and you visited me, naked and you clothed me, in prison and you visited me, etc.” When the young man asks Jesus what must he do to inherit eternal life, he tells him to keep the commandment, do not steal, no not kill, honor mother and father, etc.
Catholics DO NOT believe we are saved by works, the catechism makes that clear. :banghead: We are saved by grace, but if our faith does not bear fruit, then it is a dead faith, as James says.

 

[geezerbob]

Linkowski, I encourage you to try studying the New Testament in its entirety, not just those parts, primarily Pauline, which support your taught theology. Any of us, whatever our position, can take verses from the Bible to justify our position. Suicide? “And Judas went out and hanged himself.” “Go ye therefore and do likewise.” Okay, that’s an extreme example, but is no different than what you’re doing by ignoring the very simple and explicit words of our Savior concerning what we must do to enter heaven. The complete picture requires us to start with a clean slate and an open mind in order to see the common thread that runs throughout both the Old and the New Testaments, specifically that our love of God is made manifest in our love of neighbor. Our obedience, or lack thereof, to the two great commandments will determine where we spend eternity, not how many times we cry “Lord, Lord” or how many times we show up for church.

Again, I encourage you to forget for a while what you have been taught, forget for a while the writings of Paul, go back to the gospels, particularly Matthew and Mark, and study and meditate on the words, all of them, of our Savior. Then, when you read Paul’s epistles, you just may form a different opinion. Remember that the pupil cannot be greater than the teacher. Therefore, what Paul had to say can never supersede the teachings of Christ. Sadly, you seem to have put the cart ahead of the horse.