"Works" Salvation?

[Milliardo]

Faith alone can never overcome the fact that God will judge our works; this is a stumbling block for many who believe in it. Those who do so either ignore the Judgment passages which clearly shows that God’s basis for Judgment is works, or else make loopy interpretations to try and get around it. Of course, the loopier it gets, the more incoherent and untenable it becomes, so in the end faith alone collapses because even its own adherents cannot fully justify it without ignoring what Scripture plainly says.

 

[Linkowski]

…Therefore we are glorified and magnified, not because of ourselves, or because of our own works, or the for the righteous deeds that we performed, but by HIS will. And we also, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by means of ourselves, nor by our own will or understanding or godliness or works,which we have done in holiness of heart; but by the faith through which the Almighty God has justified all those believing from the beginning…

Clement of Rome

 

[Milliardo]

…Therefore we are glorified and magnified, not because of ourselves, or because of our own works, or the for the righteous deeds that we performed, but by HIS will. And we also, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by means of ourselves, nor by our own will or understanding or godliness or works,which we have done in holiness of heart; but by the faith through which the Almighty God has justified all those believing from the beginning…

Clement of Rome

I don’t see anything here that is against Catholic teaching; indeed, it is Christ’s will that our works should be made gracious. If not for His will, then those would be nothing. That is the gist of what Pope St. Clement I said. So, no go there. And funny, you still ignore Judgment.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Westminster Confession of Faith is the doctrinal backbone of many Reformed, in particular, Presbyterian denominations.

Here’s Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_Confession_of_Faith

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Faith alone can never overcome the fact that God will judge our works; this is a stumbling block for many who believe in it. Those who do so either ignore the Judgment passages which clearly shows that God’s basis for Judgment is works, or else make loopy interpretations to try and get around it. Of course, the loopier it gets, the more incoherent and untenable it becomes, so in the end faith alone collapses because even its own adherents cannot fully justify it without ignoring what Scripture plainly says.

Hi,
Ive seen this stated several times before but I will state it again.

We are justified by faith which means we are saved, in other words heaven bound.

We are then judged by our works-not judged as to whether or not we are going to make it in to heaven or not but by what works we did for Christ after salvation. Plus it is not necessarily the works we do but the motivation behind them.

In other words we are being judged for our works and the outcome of this judgement will be rewards in heaven or not. If every deed we did was for the glorifying of God we will be richly rewarded in heaven. If most of the deeds we did were for selfish motivation we will not receive as many rewards, but we will still be in heaven.

I dont know how all this works and I dont think about it too much. We are not told what the rewards are. I just try to have the right motivation when serving God.

 

[sandusky]

Milliardo:

Faith alone can never overcome the fact that God will judge our works; this is a stumbling block for many who believe in it. Those who do so either ignore the Judgment passages which clearly shows that God’s basis for Judgment is works, or else make loopy interpretations to try and get around it. Of course, the loopier it gets, the more incoherent and untenable it becomes, so in the end faith alone collapses because even its own adherents cannot fully justify it without ignoring what Scripture plainly says…

…And funny, you still ignore Judgment.

The Christian who abides in Christ, does not come into judgmentJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That is because all of his transgressions have been forgiven, and the debt owed for those transgressions has been cancelled, having been nailed to the cross; that was the practice at some crucifixions—the nailing on the cross of the charges against the one crucified.Colossians 2:13-14

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions,

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.The judgment of works for the one who abides in Christ determines his reward, or lack thereof. He is not condemned on the basis of works.

 

[RNRobert]

Not so Craig…The New Testament teaches that without works faith is dead.

You can pick verses from all over the place to try support your position, but when the issue is studied in the full context of the New Testament…the Catholic belief surfaces as the one that is the real New Testament teaching…

Let go of your insecurity blanket Craig and embrace what is there…not what you wish was there.
Pax tecum,

I agree. As a Protestant I had problems with “Faith alone.” I thought I could support it, but then I realized I was cherry-picking verses. As I read the Bible from cover to cover, it’s theme was that we **are **judged by our works.

 

[sandusky]

contramundum7:

We are never justified when/ we go against the moral law.

That is a Catholic teaching, and that is why Catholics believe that they can lose their justification/salvation.

The corollary to not being good enough to earn salvation, is not being bad enough to lose it.

That is because it is God who is at work in the Christian to work and to will (Php 2), and because the Christian is kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:3).

If you can lose justification/salvation, that can only be because it is based upon your performance, be it negatively, or positively; either way, it is your performance that is in view.

contramundum7:

Maybe this is why the Church teaches that others outside the Catholic Church and even outside of Christianity can be saved… (There really are those who have not heard of Jesus or if they have, don’t know much about him. their ignorance is not their own fault and therefore, they can be saved. God loves ALL his children, not jus Christians…).

That is a false assumption; namely, that the omnipotent God of the universe is impotent when it comes to getting the preaching of the Gospel to those He intends to save.

 

[lak611]

That is a Catholic teaching, and that is why Catholics believe that they can lose their justification/salvation.

Not only Catholics teach this. There are a lot of Protestants who are Arminian, not Calvinist.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

The Christian who abides in Christ, does not come into judgmentJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That is because all of his transgressions have been forgiven, and the debt owed for those transgressions has been cancelled, having been nailed to the cross; that was the practice at some crucifixions—the nailing on the cross of the charges against the one crucified.Colossians 2:13-14

13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us ALL our transgressions,

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.The judgment of works for the one who abides in Christ determines his reward, or lack thereof. He is not condemned on the basis of works.

Hey,

Thanks for making that more clear then I did.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Not only Catholics teach this. There are a lot of Protestants who are Arminian, not Calvinist.

Yes and it is sad really

 

[RNRobert]

Yes and it is sad really

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.

 

[Truthstalker]

This thread gets closed at 1000 posts.

There has been some excellent discussion (as well as some of the usual). I suggest people give some thought to the impasses and see how we can get past them on future threads. There are some things, maybe, that we’ve learned. Some of this thread has been repetitious.

Two questions:

Are we talking past each other?

Are we saying the same things but using different words?

 

[geezerbob]

The judgment of works for the one who abides in Christ determines his reward, or lack thereof. He is not condemned on the basis of works.

**This statement is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in the last verses of Matthew, Chapter 25. ** Are you above Him? I’ll say it yet again. Read first the words of Christ and keep His teachings in mind when you read the rest of the Bible, especially Paul. Maybe you’ll come to the proper understanding of salvation.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.

Why would you think ?? Christ set us free from the bondage of sin and gave us eternal life if we choose to believe. See we think we have free will because that is what we know it to be here on earth. Who knows what that really means in the spiritual realm. Your getting into predestination which is a big controversial theology.

After we are saved we do have free will to listen to the HS or grieve the HS. Sometimes I choose the wrong thing to do even though I know I am not pleasing God and I do suffer consequences from my sin and possible discipline from God but I still get to go to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

I realize it doesnt make sense to us humans that we cant do a thing for God to earn our salvation or help in any way. We just need to remember that God is so far above us and we cant see the whole picture like He does. God commands faith to be saved(heaven bound)whether you want to see it or not it is all over the OT and NT.

 

[Truthstalker]

This is one place to continue the discussion:

Predestination and free will:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2075264#post2075264

 

[RNRobert]

Why would you think ?? Christ set us free from the bondage of sin and gave us eternal life if we choose to believe. See we think we have free will because that is what we know it to be here on earth. Who knows what that really means in the spiritual realm. Your getting into predestination which is a big controversial theology.

After we are saved we do have free will to listen to the HS or grieve the HS. Sometimes I choose the wrong thing to do even though I know I am not pleasing God and I do suffer consequences from my sin and possible discipline from God but I still get to go to heaven because of my faith in Christ.

I realize it doesnt make sense to us humans that we cant do a thing for God to earn our salvation or help in any way. We just need to remember that God is so far above us and we cant see the whole picture like He does. God commands faith to be saved(heaven bound)whether you want to see it or not it is all over the OT and NT.

I didn’t intend to get into predestination theology, but sandusky implied it in his post.

I agree that salvation is a gift from God, not something we can earn on our own (it is what the Catholic Church teaches, despite what some claim to the contrary :banghead: ). But the problem with the view held by many non-Catholics (and in all fairness, to some Catholics as well) is that faith in Christ is mere “fire insurance.” I’ve heard many Protestant ministers bemoaning this attitude, and heard one on the radio saying that being a Christian was “more than putting a fish symbol on your car.” We have to choose to follow him every day, to love God and our neighbor and do right by both. Will we stumble and fall at times? Yes, but we must always get back up, dust ourselves off and keep trying. Some of our works may be gold, silver and precious stones, and some may be wood and stubble (1 Cor 3:12). We should never put our faith on autopilot.

 

[RNRobert]

With regard to ‘works’ salvation, a few days ago I started a thread explaining why I had come to abandon Sola Fide:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=141420

 

[sandusky]

RNRobert:

How so?

If Sandusky is right, then we have no free will; God is saving us whether we want to or not. We become mere automatons.

That is because you are trying logically understand a biblical truth. Logic falls short of biblical truth. Christ interfered with Paul’s will when He met Paul on the Damascus road; didn’t he? Paul was intent on remaining a Jew, and persecuting the church; Jesus had other ideas for Paul.

geezerbob:

This statement is in direct opposition to what Jesus said in the last verses of Matthew, Chapter 25. Are you above Him? I’ll say it yet again. Read first the words of Christ and keep His teachings in mind when you read the rest of the Bible, especially Paul. Maybe you’ll come to the proper understanding of salvation.

My understanding of salvation is biblical, and therefore, correct. Read Mt 25 completely, paying special attention to the sheep and goats in v33 (cf Jn 10 with respect to His Sheep). Mt 25 is all about sheep and goats.

There is a constant Catholic complaint that non-Catholics pay little attention to Christ’s words in favor of Paul’s.

AgainJohn 5:24

24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.What is your complaint against His words there?

 

[geezerbob]

Yes, Matthew 25 is all about the sheep and the goats, and on the day of judgment, I much prefer to be counted among the sheep.

I also think that my idea of salvation is biblical and correct. Regardless, I believe, so that base is covered. I’m also trying, however insufficiently, to cover the “works” base as commanded by Christ. If the Catholic church is right and you are wrong, where will that leave you on the final day?