World population explosion-human virus

[tuviskazinai]

Nonsense. There is plenty of ariable land and good fresh drinking water. Can you guess how many people it would take so there wasn’t enough drinkable water?

I know I’ve posted dewy-eyed, optimistic predictions about the future here before, but no, seriously, there are huge problems. For starters, here is a basic statement of today’s problem with water shortages:

ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/dec99/Feature2.htm

The problem is that the population is growing in the same countries facing desertification. In the same countries which are already at war over politics and racial and ethnic conflicts.

The problem with confidence in human resourcefulness and inventiveness is that human beings have a ton of other issues, as well. So many countries jump into wars at the slightest provocation – the international scene is very tense. When oil starts running out, when water starts running out, when climate refugees start pouring in across European borders from Africa – there will be wars over resources. Mark my words.

Another problem is that while these much-yahooed technologies everyone is expecting to come in and save the day would be wonderful, most of the same people who oppose “population control” (be it by abortion or contraception) also don’t believe in global warming. They vote Republican, which is in the pocket of oil companies and business interests. Obama is trying to pass laws requiring massive carbon emissions, which is one of the only ways we can change the terms of the debate on global warming so that we can create a tenable solution to some of the many problems that are facing us today, and this bill is almost uniformly opposed by Congressional Republicans (as well as some rust-belt Democrats). This is just one sign of the kind of battles I imagine will be fought over expensive alternate technologies that will make resource sharing and environmental protection easier.

I don’t mean to throw in politics – it’s not like I am some hard-core Democrat or anything – it’s just that if we are going to rely on human resourcefulness to bail us out of these problems, we also have to count on human sin and political conflict as an obstacle that could really muck things up.

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[mapleoak]

Regardless there is a finite point at which there is not enough physical material to support X amount of humans. Whatever that number is. I was just using 20 billion as an example. At some point Terra-forming would be required.

But it really doesn’t matter. By the time there is enough people on the earth to make that a possibility, the Sun would probably have exploded.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…I don’t mean to throw in politics – it’s not like I am some hard-core Democrat or anything – it’s just that if we are going to rely on human resourcefulness to bail us out of these problems, we also have to count on human sin and political conflict as an obstacle that could really muck things up…

Oh go ahead and throw in politics because this is political as well as theological. And yes, we can certainly count on human sin–that’s a given in this fallen world.

You bring up war and fights over resources, sighting some of the current ethnic conflicts in the world. Do you really expect sinful humans to share their resources fairly–and who would decide what’s fair? Of course there will be wars–there have always been wars. (Not that I want them.) Sadly, people die in wars, reducing the population. Is it better for those who might die in war to never have been born at all?

Ethnic fights happen right now. Contraception, abortion and sterilization are dangerous weapons in the hands of those who want to wipe out specific ethnic groups.

The Western world generally has reduced it’s population growth, while simultaneously using a disproportionate amount of the world’s resources. Westerners often want to export their population control onto those in lesser developed countries. Those lesser developed countries have carbon emissions per person at a much lower rate than the Western countries do. Is there an element of racism and selfishness that might be behind the motives of Westerners pushing contraception on rest of the world?

Do we Americans and Europeans feel a little bit guilty when we see other people in other parts of the world starving and living in destitute poverty? Do we want them to stop making babies so we won’t feel so guilty and so we won’t have to change too much about our present lifestyles?

And one thing I sometimes wonder…are some of the people very high up in population control secretly making lots of sperm and egg donations, because ultimately they want their genes to dominate the world? Is that why the population control movement says nothing about reproductive technologies?

I expect sin and politics to be involved in most every human endevour. And I do not trust the motives behind many who push for population control. It sounds a little too much like the pharoh in ancient Egypt who worried the Hebrew slaves population was growing strong, and they might eventually rise up against ruling class.

 

[mapleoak]

Well let us assume we are capable of turning all of the water in the oceans drinkable and recycle instantaneously all of the water a human body excretes, regardless of how gigantic the number seems it would still be finite…

How many people would it take to use up all of the drinkable water in Lake Superior?

 

[peacefulwarrior]

Abbadon, is correct. Earth does have finite resources. All the technologies we have been getting only lets us exploit those resources even better. But, sooner or later we WILL reach a limit on the resource margin. Countries are facing desertfication becuase of over farming, and global warming. If we continues to increase farming, desertfication will increase, and we will need to farm even more in the areas that are left.

Your theory that we have so many resources and technology is always going to bail us out is incorrect. Becuase all of the reasources are finite, you can’t get more land, you can just move it or make it to something else. You can’t make matter. Technology is only about efficiancy, but there is no such thing as a 100 percent efficient system. Even, if it does break the laws of physics and we do create a 100 percent efficient system, we are limited by the amount of matter.

Even, with all the wars the population will still go up. It is even worse, because after wars the population has a nasty habit of increasing in even greater numbers for a short while.

The sun has a few billion years left for existance. We humans have multplied to billions from thousands in a few thousand years. The growth rate will keep increasing, so we will grow even faster. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out, that we will probably run out of land on earth before the sun goes out.

I won’t go into terra forming, because that opens up another can of worms.

 

[gardenswithkids]

…Earth does have finite resources. …

The earth may have finite resources, but the Creator of the earth, the Lord and Giver of Life, has infinite resources.

I realize that many participating in this discussion are not people of faith. Those of us who claim to have faith in God, should have faith in God.

 

[Calliso]

The earth may have finite resources, but the Creator of the earth, the Lord and Giver of Life, has infinite resources.

I realize that many participating in this discussion are not people of faith. Those of us who claim to have faith in God, should have faith in God.

See I am a person of faith. And I donlt buy into the God will bail us out thing either. It;s not that I donlt have faith…I just think God more or less leaves us to ourselves. Occasionally he interfers but I think the idea that he would come in in the nic of time to swoop in and performs some miracles to save us all is dangerous thinking. No we need to prevent our own problems or find ways to solve them…not hope and pray God saves us.

 

[Calliso]

I know I’ve posted dewy-eyed, optimistic predictions about the future here before, but no, seriously, there are huge problems. For starters, here is a basic statement of today’s problem with water shortages:

ag.arizona.edu/AZWATER/awr/dec99/Feature2.htm

The problem is that the population is growing in the same countries facing desertification. In the same countries which are already at war over politics and racial and ethnic conflicts.

The problem with confidence in human resourcefulness and inventiveness is that human beings have a ton of other issues, as well. So many countries jump into wars at the slightest provocation – the international scene is very tense. When oil starts running out, when water starts running out, when climate refugees start pouring in across European borders from Africa – there will be wars over resources. Mark my words.

Another problem is that while these much-yahooed technologies everyone is expecting to come in and save the day would be wonderful, most of the same people who oppose “population control” (be it by abortion or contraception) also don’t believe in global warming. They vote Republican, which is in the pocket of oil companies and business interests. Obama is trying to pass laws requiring massive carbon emissions, which is one of the only ways we can change the terms of the debate on global warming so that we can create a tenable solution to some of the many problems that are facing us today, and this bill is almost uniformly opposed by Congressional Republicans (as well as some rust-belt Democrats). This is just one sign of the kind of battles I imagine will be fought over expensive alternate technologies that will make resource sharing and environmental protection easier.

I don’t mean to throw in politics – it’s not like I am some hard-core Democrat or anything – it’s just that if we are going to rely on human resourcefulness to bail us out of these problems, we also have to count on human sin and political conflict as an obstacle that could really muck things up.

Peace,
+AMDG+

I should have read your post before I went to do the research I did on water resources! Fortunately I didn;t waste too much time on it. But here is a wiki article anyway about it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_resources

The vast majority of our water resources is salt water and the majority of the fresh water is locked up in glaciers and polar ice caps. So that leaves very little accesible fresh water left over. And yeah it;s not exactly evenly distrubuted either. And things like desalination might one day be viable but right not they are just too expensive in most cases. worldwaterresources.com/Desalination.html not to mention require large amounts of energy.

And you are right I do think there will be many wars over resources in the not too distant future. And even countries like the USA will be strained though likely better off then some. But for instance I have read a lot on how climate change is making or is very likely to make the southwest much drier.

And I assume you mean he is trying to pass laws that require massive carbon emission cuts right? But yeah I am sure the battles over alternative techlogies will be epic…and of course cause epic delays… Heck about the carbon emissions one…I donlt even have much hope that will pass or if it does it wonlt until it;s be chopped up a bit if you know what I mean. But I hope I am wrong.

Also someone mentioned lake superior…Yes it has lots of fresh water…but I am not sure how that helps everyone in the world? I mean when we were having a drought here in Georgia…I donlt remmeber anyone saying hey donlt worry the Great Lakes have plenty of water we will just transport some of it down here! And while some transportation of water is possible…large scale consistant delivery is another. And the great lakes do not have infinite amounts of water either.

 

[peacefulwarrior]

Now, I agree with calliso. God, bailing us out every time we need help, will leave us helpless. Haven’t you ever seen Bruce Almighty, it’s the samething except on a grand scale. Now, i think he would be angry if we didn’t do anything about, since we have such an advanced warning of what will happen. (If you manage to figure out how to get energy and matter from out of nowhere, then i’ll agree that we have unlimited resources, if not then we have finite resources.)

 

[mapleoak]

So that leaves very little accesible fresh water left over. And yeah it;s not exactly evenly distrubuted either.

I think there is plenty of water in Lake Superior. And if that is not enough, there is Lake Michigan. Then by the time the peoples’ thirst is quenched, I am sure these lakes would have replenished themselves.
Once again, do you know how many people it would take to empty Lake Superior?
Most of the Earth’s water being salt water or locked in ice caps doesn’t much matter.

 

[mapleoak]

Also someone mentioned lake superior…Yes it has lots of fresh water…but I am not sure how that helps everyone in the world? I mean when we were having a drought here in Georgia…I donlt remmeber anyone saying hey donlt worry the Great Lakes have plenty of water we will just transport some of it down here! And while some transportation of water is possible…large scale consistant delivery is another. And the great lakes do not have infinite amounts of water either.

Here again is an example of the gift God has given to man to be industrious. How does the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix) get its thirst quenched?

 

[tuviskazinai]

And I assume you mean he is trying to pass laws that require massive carbon emission cuts right?

Whoops!! Exactly.

You are right about the desalinization thing. Difficult, expensive. Remember that weird Kevin Costner movie, Waterworld, where the whole world is covered in oceans? How in the first scene he has this little contraption to distill his urine into drinkable water? Now, apart from the big question my uncle always wondered about (if he can distill his urine, wouldn’t it be easier, and a lot less disgusting, to just distill all the salt water all around him??), I unfortunately think that’s many people’s idea: that because we in the US have no major water problems (not yet, anyway – like you say, they are starting to arrive), it must be that easy for the whole world, and if it’s not, we just need to invent some sort of little contraption. But it’s just not that easy.

Mapleoak, when all of sub-Saharan Africa is drying up from the terrible droughts that are coming its way (nytimes.com/2009/04/17/science/earth/17drought.html for example), it will be hard to get huge quantities of water from Lake Superior all the way over there – by helicopter? steamship? – and purifying it in the process! I found interesting this part of the Wikipedia article Calliso linked to:

==Economic considerations==i Water supply and sanitation require a huge amount of capital investment in infrastructure such as pipe networks, pumping stations and water treatment works. It is estimated that Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) nations need to invest at least USD 200 billion per year to replace aging water infrastructure to guarantee supply, reduce leakage rates and protect water quality.[19]

International attention has focused upon the needs of the developing countries. To meet the Millennium Development Goals targets of halving the proportion of the population lacking access to safe drinking water and basic sanitation by 2015, current annual investment on the order of USD 10 to USD 15 billion would need to be roughly doubled. This does not include investments required for the maintenance of existing infrastructure.[20]

Once infrastructure is in place, operating water supply and sanitation systems entails significant ongoing costs to cover personnel, energy, chemicals, maintenance and other expenses. The sources of money to meet these capital and operational costs are essentially either user fees, public funds or some combination of the two.

But this is where the economics of water management start to become extremely complex as they intersect with social and broader economic policy. Such policy questions are beyond the scope of this article, which has concentrated on basic information about water availability and water use. They are, nevertheless, highly relevant to understanding how critical water issues will affect business and industry in terms of both risks and opportunities.

It’s doable, and maybe there are other solutions too, but it certainly won’t be easy, and we need to start now – no time for false security. Especially since the people who will really need help are nowhere on the world-superpowers’ radars. In the election we talked about abortion, Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, health care…but who is talking about getting Ethiopia’s water transportation system up and running? This is why, I think, the Pope and the Church keep begging the rich not to forget about the poor as they go about restructuring the world’s economy (catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0902093.htm), but is anyone listening?

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[gardenswithkids]

See I am a person of faith. And I donlt buy into the God will bail us out thing either. It;s not that I donlt have faith…I just think God more or less leaves us to ourselves. Occasionally he interfers but I think the idea that he would come in in the nic of time to swoop in and performs some miracles to save us all is dangerous thinking. No we need to prevent our own problems or find ways to solve them…not hope and pray God saves us.

It says you’re non-denominational, so I assume that means Christian. I differ with your theological view that God more or less leaves us to ourselves. He may likely do that with people who aren’t interested in knowing Him or doing His will, but for those of us actively seeking to do His will, I believe He gives us much more direction.

And I don’t believe God views children and people as “viruses” or “rabbits” if you prefer that term. He created us in His image and likeness, giving us dominion over the earth. We certainly have a responsibility to care for the earth and to do our part. But it is dangerous for us to doubt that God will do His part.

I believe in Jesus, the same Jesus who multiplied a little boy’s loaves and fish. I also believe God allows His saints to work miracles. (See Acts 3: 1-9. Catholics believe in other miracles by saints too.) Believing God can work miracles doesn’t mean I’m waiting for Him to sweep down and make our family dinner every night or plant my vegetable garden. It means I trust that if I do my part, God will do His. The story of the loaves and fishes reminds us of what God can do when we give Him everything we’ve got.

Yes, we need to prevent problems–but I don’t see my fellow human beings, their children and my own children as “problems” that need to be prevented.

 

[Abbadon]

But it really doesn’t matter. By the time there is enough people on the earth to make that a possibility, the Sun would probably have exploded.

I don’t know what that number is, so I can’t be sure to say. We are already at a cap for current infrastructure and technology. Until we improve it people will continue to die of hunger, thirst, cold and heat. Regardless of the finite limitations of physical resources we have a greater automatically imposed limitation of infrastructure and technology.

 

[Abbadon]

Even, with all the wars the population will still go up. It is even worse, because after wars the population has a nasty habit of increasing in even greater numbers for a short while.

The sun has a few billion years left for existance. We humans have multplied to billions from thousands in a few thousand years. The growth rate will keep increasing, so we will grow even faster. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out, that we will probably run out of land on earth before the sun goes out.

I won’t go into terra forming, because that opens up another can of worms.

But you have to realize that populations in nature cannot increase if their environment cannot sustain them. So human population cannot exceed it’s predefined limits. Like I have been saying all along, if you cannot eat you will die, if you have more children than you can support they will die. If we look at third world countries this is what is already happening. Earth will never have more humans than it can support because the humans will die off if they cannot be supported.

 

[tuviskazinai]

I absolutely agree that God is always with us…but what does this mean? That he will prevent society from collapsing? Or simply that in the midst of collapse he will love us all the same, will grant us the grace to love each other, will remind us that in the end “only one thing is necessary”?

I have always kind of thought that grace, peace, love, and the kind of deep joy that comes from our hope in the Resurrection are all God’s to give. But “happiness” – in the daily sense of comfort and sweetness and easy feelings (especially for our friends and family who do not believe in God and do not have the deep comfort of the Cross to cling to) – these things, I think, are not guaranteed. They are contingent. Happiness comes and goes, and it’s often as a result of human actions.

I mean, let’s look at what God has “allowed.” The Bubonic plague destroyed half the population of Europe. The Holocaust instituted a reign of evil there six hundred years later. Whole countries in Africa are starving to death right this minute, are living in the depths of Third World agony. And yet we in the United States are so protected from all of that…of course it seems to us as though our comfortable lifestyle could never just vanish.

Yes, I do think that God will “allow” us to destroy the environment, to starve and go thirsty, if these are the physical consequences of our political and spiritual decisions. It’s kind of scary, and maybe threatens people’s belief in God, but it needs to be confronted: the story of human history is a story of violence and suffering. Perhaps if society does begin to collapse – perhaps if we do see unprecedented levels of suffering – it will be there that we find Christ, for whom the human experience of suffering was so important that he appeared on earth with us to help us bear it. But wouldn’t it be better if we could come to God without having to bring such disasters down upon our heads? For the sake of our neighbors and our children, isn’t it best that we take some of our own initiative?

What is that story about the shipwreck survivor on a lifeboat on the open ocean? A rescue ship comes to pick him up, and he says, “No, thanks, I’m waiting for God to save me,” and then a helicopter comes and he says, “No, thanks, I’m waiting for God to save me,” and eventually he runs out of food and water and dies and sees God and asks him, “Hey, I was in dire straights down there – where were you?” And God says, “What do you mean, where was I? I sent you a rescue ship and a helicopter and you ignored them both!”

I think we need to listen to scientists and humanitarians who are warning us about what could happen, work with politicians and charitable organizations who are trying to make a difference, and see God’s guidance in that…

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[mapleoak]

Mapleoak, when all of sub-Saharan Africa is drying up from the terrible droughts that are coming its way (nytimes.com/2009/04/17/science/earth/17drought.html for example), it will be hard to get huge quantities of water from Lake Superior all the way over there – by helicopter? steamship? – and purifying it in the process!

Lake Superior is just an example to illustrate that it is ridiculous to think we will be running out of fresh drinking water. The Earth has an incredible amount of drinkable water, most of it not even from lakes, but from beneath the soil surface. The rest of it is convertible to being drinkable.
The general feeling seems to be that everything is can’t, it’s too expensive, it’s too hard, it’s impossible. That is what God gave us minds for. He expects us to use them.

 

[tuviskazinai]

Lake Superior is just an example to illustrate that it is ridiculous to think we will be running out of fresh drinking water. The Earth has an incredible amount of drinkable water, most of it not even from lakes, but from beneath the soil surface. The rest of it is convertible to being drinkable.
The general feeling seems to be that everything is can’t, it’s too expensive, it’s too hard, it’s impossible. That is what God gave us minds for. He expects us to use them.

haha…wow, sorry, I seriously owe you an apology. I don’t know why I took that Lake Superior argument so literally…of course it was just an example! Eek, what a doofus I must have sounded like just then…I’m sorry!

You’re right, there is definitely a lot of fresh water in the world. It just seems to me that scientists and engineers who study these issues are concerned about how to purify and deliver it, so maybe we should be too. I also agree with you that we shouldn’t have a negative, can’t-do attitude…we definitely need to have hope!

Peace,
+AMDG+

 

[peacefulwarrior]

I’ts dangerous to not rely on god, it’s even more dangerous to rely on him completely. I remember “God helps those who help themselves!” Hezekiah 6:1. I think he would be angry if we just relied on him, when we can rely on ourselves.

Well earth can’t support anything that goes beyond it’s environments resources. But, usually the populations goes beyond the limit and then dies off till it levels of. Now imagine millions of humans dying of starvation, war and every single other problem that comes when people start to run out of resources. Sooner or later we will reach that point, and it’s not going to be very pretty.

Everyone arguing over lake superior see it like an unlimited resource. Saddly, it just looks big, but, it’s a limited resource. Imagine millions upon millions relying on every drop of it. Add a few more, and there won’t be enough drinkable water to go around. Then come chaos pain and destruction. I’ll be the one saying I told you so.

Then if god decides to have mercy on us, he MIGHT fix the problem. But, then we’ll get yelled at for letting something happen that we KNEW was going to happen.

I remember the saying it’s better to over react, than to under react.

 

[Calliso]

haha…wow, sorry, I seriously owe you an apology. I don’t know why I took that Lake Superior argument so literally…of course it was just an example! Eek, what a doofus I must have sounded like just then…I’m sorry!

You’re right, there is definitely a lot of fresh water in the world. It just seems to me that scientists and engineers who study these issues are concerned about how to purify and deliver it, so maybe we should be too. I also agree with you that we shouldn’t have a negative, can’t-do attitude…we definitely need to have hope!

Peace,
+AMDG+

Yep exactly on the purifying and delivering it issues. And of course we shouldnlt have a negative can;t do attitude. But just as dangerous is a it will be all right no matter what attitude. Now personally I think more research needs to be done into desalination. If we could find a way to make the process cheaper and more energy effiencient that would be great. Of course even then there would still be transportation issues as not everyone lives by the ocean. Such and such area on the coast having plenty of water from desalination isn;t going to help some farmer somewhere in India going through a drought unless someway is found to deliver water there consistantly and regularly.