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KostyaJMJ
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You can go to tcoyf.com/ for a take on the fertility awareness method from a secular perspective.
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BrokenFortress
Guest
I’m just confused one why you will even use NFP if you’re going to use contraceptives during fertile phases. That’s not NFP. Some secular people do that for Fertility Awareness Method (FAM) but that’s secular.
Then why not just use contraceptives or condoms or what-have-you all of her cycle?
Seriously, I just don’t get the point? (not to be rude, I just honestly don’t get it)
The only times condoms or contraceptives “fail” is during the fertile period. So even using those is not a guarantee that you won’t have a baby.
Then why not just use contraceptives or condoms or what-have-you all of her cycle?
Seriously, I just don’t get the point? (not to be rude, I just honestly don’t get it)
The only times condoms or contraceptives “fail” is during the fertile period. So even using those is not a guarantee that you won’t have a baby.
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Persuader
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Good link, KostyaJMJ!
Right, so STM is a method used in NFP. It is true that the church generally doesn’t accept contraceptives, and you could say that it isn’t actually NFP if you are using contraception. The point to make is to say that the catholic (aka my fiancée) is not using contraceptives, and I am not going to force contraceptives on her. That means that the catholic party is not sinning. However, I am not catholic, and if I want to use condoms (for instance) that doesn’t transfer any sin to my fiancée.
I am not inclined to use condoms if I don’t have to. As I have said, I prefer not to use them. Therefore, I will not use condoms when we can be reasonably sure she is infertile. There are several reasons for why I think we will not be able to abstain for 15 days every month. If we were to try NFP without any acceptable backup (condoms), I think we would fail (i.e. get pregnant). I am a bit nervous about it in any case.
It is certainly true that condoms will not guarantee that we will not get pregnant, but with perfect use there is a 2% chance every year and that’s pretty good. I would, of course, prefer better odds, but that is difficult without female contraception (and for the time being there doesn’t seem to be any interest in that).
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GorgerCracker
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Since you’re so keen on sinning, why don’t you just take hot baths every day. That will make you infertile (temporarily), if you do it on a consistent enough basis, because too much heat mutates sperm. Just saying. I have never understood why non-Catholics think it is so hard to avoid pregnancy when it is so easy to make men infertile.Good link, KostyaJMJ!
Right, so STM is a method used in NFP. It is true that the church generally doesn’t accept contraceptives, and you could say that it isn’t actually NFP if you are using contraception. The point to make is to say that the catholic (aka my fiancée) is not using contraceptives, and I am not going to force contraceptives on her. That means that the catholic party is not sinning. However, I am not catholic, and if I want to use condoms (for instance) that doesn’t transfer any sin to my fiancée.
I am not inclined to use condoms if I don’t have to. As I have said, I prefer not to use them. Therefore, I will not use condoms when we can be reasonably sure she is infertile. There are several reasons for why I think we will not be able to abstain for 15 days every month. If we were to try NFP without any acceptable backup (condoms), I think we would fail (i.e. get pregnant). I am a bit nervous about it in any case.
It is certainly true that condoms will not guarantee that we will not get pregnant, but with perfect use there is a 2% chance every year and that’s pretty good. I would, of course, prefer better odds, but that is difficult without female contraception (and for the time being there doesn’t seem to be any interest in that).
And not being Catholic does not change the nature of what you are doing. Using contraception is still wrong and it will hurt you marriage, especially since your future wife has moral qualms about it. You might as well not marry. This all sounds like a recipe for disaster, resentment, and finally divorce.
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agapewolf
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It may not transfer accountability to her, but it sure is still objectively harmful, and you still will be using her for your own selfish pleasure.Good link, KostyaJMJ!
Right, so STM is a method used in NFP. It is true that the church generally doesn’t accept contraceptives, and you could say that it isn’t actually NFP if you are using contraception. The point to make is to say that the catholic (aka my fiancée) is not using contraceptives, and I am not going to force contraceptives on her. That means that the catholic party is not sinning. However, I am not catholic, and if I want to use condoms (for instance) that doesn’t transfer any sin to my fiancée.
I am not inclined to use condoms if I don’t have to. As I have said, I prefer not to use them. Therefore, I will not use condoms when we can be reasonably sure she is infertile. There are several reasons for why I think we will not be able to abstain for 15 days every month. If we were to try NFP without any acceptable backup (condoms), I think we would fail (i.e. get pregnant). I am a bit nervous about it in any case.
It is certainly true that condoms will not guarantee that we will not get pregnant, but with perfect use there is a 2% chance every year and that’s pretty good. I would, of course, prefer better odds, but that is difficult without female contraception (and for the time being there doesn’t seem to be any interest in that).
Again, the fact that you are trusting the 2% statistic is ridiculous. 2% “failure” is not accurate because it doesn’t measure how many times the condom failed. Its impossible because AT LEAST 75% of the time, a pregnancy wouldn’t have occurred anyway. If you plan on using a condom during intercourse when you know you are fertile, I’ll bet you guys are pregnant before if you would have just used NFP and abstained.
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1ke
Guest
This is not accurate.
A Catholic can only have relations with a contracepting spouse under very specific circumstances and under the guidance of their Confessor. Participating in contraceptive intercourse can indeed be a sin on the part of the passive spouse and going into a marriage knowing the other spouse intends to contracept from the outset is also extremely problematic with regard to valid consent and intent and culpability of the Catholic.
Going into a marriage with the intent for you to use contraception is entirely different than already being married and having contraception foisted upon you without your consent or foreknowledge.
These are very serious circumstances and you are kidding only yourself if you think that she has no culpability in a very serious sin if she enters marriage with you knowing full well you plan to contracept in your marriage.
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Persuader
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It may not be entirely accurate (I have not gone into details), but it is correct to say that our arrangement is acceptable (in the manner I explained). We have spoken of this in premarital discussions with the priest, and an acceptable compromise has been made. I will admit that I suspect that the priest might be showing leniency above and beyond the necessary. It is certainly true that their support among young adults is quite scarce in my country. The church mostly consist of older people and foreigners/immigrants. They are obviously doing what they can to retain young people. Nevertheless, I don’t have sufficient reason to think that the priest is making a mistake, and if he is, it is a mistake in my favor and I would have little reason to object.
I agree, but I feel that abstaining for 15 days every month is unrealistic. Right off the bat, we will probably encounter the problem of juggling a honeymoon with her fertile phase. Abstaining on the honeymoon seems silly and completely unrealistic.
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agapewolf
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I know plenty of people that did. They waited that long, what’s one more week. It is not silly to follow Christ’s church when one cares about their own salvation and offending their creator. The “rule” nor “harm” it causes isn’t suspended simply because one is on a honeymoon. It is still lustful and using for selfish gratification. It still is not a self-gift. In fact, its even more offensive because it is on the honeymoon.
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GorgerCracker
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You say earlier that your fiancee does not enjoy having sex with you when you use a condom, and yet you are quite willing to sleep with her repeatedly for half the month knowing that she will not enjoy it because abstaining is “unrealistic.” Does this not strike you as selfish? Who wants to sleep with someone when they know the other person will be very unhappy about it? And what about when you do have children? You will have to abstain for a few weeks after the child is born. Do you think that you’ll have enough self-control when the time comes? Seriously, two weeks without sex every month is not a hardship, it’s totally doable, and it seems ridiculous that you won’t even consider trying to do nfp properly.
Moreover, if you fiancee really is morally opposed to contraception, she will resent you after awhile for using condoms. You guys really need to find a solution that both of you are 100% okay with. Otherwise you are going to find married life a total hell.
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Persuader
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I didn’t say that my fiancée doesn’t enjoy sex with a condom, I said that she doesn’t like that I use condoms. I am doing this as much for her as for me. As I have said, I am quite sure we would fail (i.e. get pregnant) if condoms were not on the table. Also, the priest finds it acceptable, so I feel quite comfortable with the arrangement. We have just invested in a fertility monitor, so it might be that the number for days for the fertile phase can be reduced. If that happens, it will at least result in less condom-use.
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Katrina5
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If you are interested in 100% birth control, guaranteed no pregnancy, no STD’s, no AIDS, there is always “abstinence”.
Why are you coming to a forum and expecting advice on how to have premarital sex without consequences?
You will really be a “family man” someday, eh?
Why are you coming to a forum and expecting advice on how to have premarital sex without consequences?
You will really be a “family man” someday, eh?
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GorgerCracker
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She is still going to resent you using condoms. She’s learning nfp because she wants to do the right thing. She doesn’t want to sin! Wake up. This is a big issue and it’s going to be a big problem in your marriage. It will probably destroy your marriage.
And the priest was in the wrong to find it “acceptable.” He should refuse to marry you until you agree not to use contraception. She would be smarter to break it off with you, but unfortunately the premarital sex seems to have clouded her judgment about what is right and wrong. Anyone outside of the situation can see what a mess this will be. It’s too bad you guys are determined to find out the hard way.
“The road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts.” ~ St. John Chrysostom
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StJudePray4Me
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Persuader, I think you are in the wrong place to get the advice that you seek.
As I understand it, these are the facts:
If so, you are barking up the wrong tree and should probably take this discussion to a secular board on family planning.
As I understand it, these are the facts:
- you want to have sex with your fiancee/wife and be “safe” from pregnancy
- she doesn’t want to use contraceptives due to church teaching
- So you have taken the “responsibility” for the birth control as a “loophole” in church teaching, as you are atheist and don’t care about church teaching
- but sex is more pleasurable for you without the condom
- so you are looking for “tips” on how to minimize your fiancee’s fertile days.
If so, you are barking up the wrong tree and should probably take this discussion to a secular board on family planning.
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newbetx
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Well, there are many here that didn’t have sex on their wedding night and lived to tell the tale. I am yet unconvinced that the main reason you wish to get married is to start having sex with her again.
BTW, you said you wouldn’t force contraception on her, but yet, you say you plan to use condoms. That is forcing contraception on her. While technically, not her choice, how long do you think it will take before the depression either returns or she begins to resent your attitude about sex? I can tell you it may be years, but it ain’t a pretty outcome.
We’ve talked about “sacrifice” before and this is an area you just can’t see the need. This is going to be a long hard road for you.
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crohnie4life
Guest
There has been studies done w/NFP and it is successful when both partners are in agreement with it. It is 99.9% successful when done correctly. Whereas using contraceptives, the success rate is much lower. PLUS, with NFP, you don’t have to worry about taking a pill or using a condom at all and it is much safer to use.
DH & I have been using it for 13 yrs. SUCCESSFULLY to avoid having children because I have serious health issues that could harm myself and an unborn child. With NFP, couples don’t use each other as objects like other contraception do (ex-condoms, IUDs, the pill), they put each other’s needs first–when they have to abstain for good reason they focus on other aspects of their marriage such as communication, prayer, spending time w/their other children (if they have any), doing special things for each other such as making a meal, going out on a date, watching a movie, learning a new hobby together, etc.
Marriage is much more than being physical. It’s 2 people giving of themselves and putting Christ in the center of their union. There will be times that couples will have to abstain for a certain length of time such as a serious illness or major surgery. Is it hard during that time period to abstain, yes, and I’m speaking from experience, but my DH always sees to it that my health is top priority over his “needs”. When I had my stroke 5 years ago, intimacy was the last thing he was thinking about. He NEVER pressured me into anything I felt uncomfortable w/while I was recovering & in physical therapy which took a full year.
I wonder if the OP would be this patient with his fiance if she were ever faced w/a serious illness or surgery or if he’d find a way to pressure her to meet his needs b/c that’s the vibe I’m getting from reading his post. It’s a fact that there will be days that his fiance will NOT want to be intimate due to not feeling well, being tired, working late, etc. He really needs to get a reality check, if not, he’s in for a rude awakening I’m afraid. And that’s REALISTIC.
DH & I have been using it for 13 yrs. SUCCESSFULLY to avoid having children because I have serious health issues that could harm myself and an unborn child. With NFP, couples don’t use each other as objects like other contraception do (ex-condoms, IUDs, the pill), they put each other’s needs first–when they have to abstain for good reason they focus on other aspects of their marriage such as communication, prayer, spending time w/their other children (if they have any), doing special things for each other such as making a meal, going out on a date, watching a movie, learning a new hobby together, etc.
Marriage is much more than being physical. It’s 2 people giving of themselves and putting Christ in the center of their union. There will be times that couples will have to abstain for a certain length of time such as a serious illness or major surgery. Is it hard during that time period to abstain, yes, and I’m speaking from experience, but my DH always sees to it that my health is top priority over his “needs”. When I had my stroke 5 years ago, intimacy was the last thing he was thinking about. He NEVER pressured me into anything I felt uncomfortable w/while I was recovering & in physical therapy which took a full year.
I wonder if the OP would be this patient with his fiance if she were ever faced w/a serious illness or surgery or if he’d find a way to pressure her to meet his needs b/c that’s the vibe I’m getting from reading his post. It’s a fact that there will be days that his fiance will NOT want to be intimate due to not feeling well, being tired, working late, etc. He really needs to get a reality check, if not, he’s in for a rude awakening I’m afraid. And that’s REALISTIC.
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terri_fortner
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I abstained for 15 months while my spouse was deployed. Its not hard to do it if you are doing it for someone you LOVE and plan on spending the rest of your life with.
What are you going to do when the priest that gave you the “okay” leaves and you get another one in that is going to follow the teachings of the church and tells your then wife ‘that if she engages in sex with you while you are using contraception then she is consenting to sex with contraception and it is a sin’? This is something that is a real possibility.
If you love her then respect her faith, if you can’t respect her faith then what are you doing marrying someone who is trying so hard to follow her beliefs? It may sound like its impossible to go your separate ways now, but it will be easier then when your condom fails and you have a kid and then try to split because she is fed up with your blatant disrespect for something that is such a big part of who she is.
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Persuader
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Those are not the facts as I see them. We both want to have sex, but simultaneously we want to avoid pregnancy. In the future, we would like to have children. I have taken responsibility for my sexual behavior (using contraception), but that is not a loophole. Taking responsibility for my own behavior is not a loophole. Sex is more pleasurable for both of us without a condom, but this is not the only reason for using a condom. However, I will admit that my motivation for decreasing the fertile phase is mostly due to my wish to avoid using condoms. Given this, and the acceptance of the priest, I cannot see why this would not be an appropriate question. I have put this question to various people, as I think different perspectives will give me more information.
I am not sure if any of you are sensitive to the fact that I also have my views and beliefs, and those demand respect just as much as the views and beliefs of my fiancée. If I were to force or demand that my fiancée use contraceptives, I would clearly not respect her beliefs. But similarly, if my fiancée were to demand that I do not use contraceptives, that would be disrespectful of my beliefs. She may ask me, and she has, but for the time being I believe we need a backup to NFP. That is my belief, and subsequently my responsibility.
One last thing. I do not think it is impossible to stay abstinent in general. I am abstinent now. The question is if this will be a source of irritation and dissatisfaction when we are living together and sleeping together in the same bed. I will tell you one thing for certain, if I have to go to bed with my fiancée for 15 days without release, my sleep will be seriously affected. We have already tried sleeping together while abstaining, and it didn’t work very well…
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wanner47
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Persuader, have you ever read Contraception: Why Not? by Dr. Janet Smith? You may find it illuminating.
Also, the priest you and your fiancee are talking to is preaching heresy if he’s telling you it’s okay to use any sort of contraception.
I’ve used NFP for 7 years and wouldn’t have it any other way.
If you find it so impossible to abstain for more than a day or two, whatever are you going to for the first six weeks after a child is born?
Also, the priest you and your fiancee are talking to is preaching heresy if he’s telling you it’s okay to use any sort of contraception.
I’ve used NFP for 7 years and wouldn’t have it any other way.
If you find it so impossible to abstain for more than a day or two, whatever are you going to for the first six weeks after a child is born?
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agapewolf
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You have completely missed the whole entire issue.Those are not the facts as I see them. We both want to have sex, but simultaneously we want to avoid pregnancy. In the future, we would like to have children. I have taken responsibility for my sexual behavior (using contraception), but that is not a loophole. Taking responsibility for my own behavior is not a loophole. Sex is more pleasurable for both of us without a condom, but this is not the only reason for using a condom. However, I will admit that my motivation for decreasing the fertile phase is mostly due to my wish to avoid using condoms. Given this, and the acceptance of the priest, I cannot see why this would not be an appropriate question. I have put this question to various people, as I think different perspectives will give me more information.
I am not sure if any of you are sensitive to the fact that I also have my views and beliefs, and those demand respect just as much as the views and beliefs of my fiancée. If I were to force or demand that my fiancée use contraceptives, I would clearly not respect her beliefs. But similarly, if my fiancée were to demand that I do not use contraceptives, that would be disrespectful of my beliefs. She may ask me, and she has, but for the time being I believe we need a backup to NFP. That is my belief, and subsequently my responsibility.
One last thing. I do not think it is impossible to stay abstinent in general. I am abstinent now. The question is if this will be a source of irritation and dissatisfaction when we are living together and sleeping together in the same bed. I will tell you one thing for certain, if I have to go to bed with my fiancée for 15 days without release, my sleep will be seriously affected. We have already tried sleeping together while abstaining, and it didn’t work very well…
By using contraceptives in a UNIFYING act, you are forcing your future wife to use them, even if she is not doing the action herself. You are not respecting her beliefs. “Your sexual behavior” by its very nature when married involves very intimately someone else.
It’s not one side or the other. 2 people become one flesh.
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AnneElliot
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Persuader (very interesting name),
Are you going to raise your future children in the Catholic faith? This is one of the requirements for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic… have you promised this? Are you really, as an atheist, going to raise your children to believe in God, love the Blessed Mother, shun sin, and seek virtue?
Are you going to raise your future children in the Catholic faith? This is one of the requirements for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic… have you promised this? Are you really, as an atheist, going to raise your children to believe in God, love the Blessed Mother, shun sin, and seek virtue?
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