Worried about other people''s salvation

[JackVk]

One thought I have that I obsess on is whether or not people will be saved, let alone myself. With things such as the doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”, and the insights of saints and visionaries regarding how few are saved, the outlook seems extremely grim.

I worry that my family, friends, co-workers, virtually everyone I know, will go to Hell. What’s more, I feel like it will be my fault for not converting them.

I don’t feel like so many people deserve to go to Hell. I think that Hell shold be for the truly wicked. Yet, who am I to question God?

 

[Katherine438]

You should read the diary of St. Faustina and learn more about the Divine Mercy.

 

[Della]

Fortunately for all the people you know and care about, they have you to pray for them.

We cannot judge anyone’s eternal destiny, although we can have a firm hope that we will be saved if we are faithful where God puts us.

All we can do is pray and be a good witness to the love of God. This doesn’t mean constant preaching at other, of course. But, being a friend when needed, helping others in any attempt at being virtuous, praying for them, etc. These are all beneficial.

Remember, that God does not will that any be lost. His mercy extends farther than we can think or imagine. He knows each one’s situation, disposition, accessibility to the truth, and so on. Pray, pray, pray and leave the rest to our God who loves us so much he gave us his only begotten Son----thanks be to God!

 

[jcrichton]

One thought I have that I obsess on is whether or not people will be saved, let alone myself. With things such as the doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”, and the insights of saints and visionaries regarding how few are saved, the outlook seems extremely grim.

I worry that my family, friends, co-workers, virtually everyone I know, will go to Hell. What’s more, I feel like it will be my fault for not converting them.

I don’t feel like so many people deserve to go to Hell. I think that Hell shold be for the truly wicked. Yet, who am I to question God?

Hi, Jack!

…you must slowdown… it is not my job to “save/convert” you nor vice versa…

As Christ’s Disciple we are Called to Bring the Good News of Christ to the world (all the world); we will not be Judged upon anyone’s determination to reject God and God’s Gift of Salvation… we are merely: Sentinels (given the task of sounding the Alarm).

Did you Know that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ? That’s why there’s no Salvation outside of the Church–only One Name has been Given by which all must be Saved: Christ/Jesus.

It is not the Church that has determined that few are/will be Save:

13 ‘Enter by the narrow gate

, since the road that leads to perdition is wide and spacious, and many take it; 14 but it is a** narrow gate **and a **hard road **that leads to life, and only a few find it. (St. Matthew 7:13-14)

Salvation is not about a “feeling” it is about abiding in Christ. Christ Himself Taught that not all would be Saved:

34 ‘Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 ‘Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. 38 Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. 39 Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.

(St. Matthew 10:34-39)
…but it is not God’s failure or unjust choosing; it is man (humanity) himself who chooses to reject God’s Gift:

3:16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not be lost but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to condemn the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be condemned; but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe in the name of God’s only Son. 19 On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear his actions should be exposed; 21 but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light, so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in God;’

(St. John 3:16-21)
So, yes… we must worry about our Salvation and the Salvation of others… but we must not believe that Salvation depends upon our abilities to convert/convict anyone to become Christ’s Disciple–we can only sound the Alert: Jesus is the God the Saves; He Founded His Church to facilitate man’s Salvation; Come, Join the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

If not scrupulous, these thoughts sound a little obsessive. For those in/going to hell, it is not an injustice, but perfect justice. A few web friends had an email discussion about this and I opined that, in heaven, we will be satisfied that souls are in hell, as it is a reflection of God’s perfection in justice. What, will we be crying in eternity because so-and-so isn’t with us? That’s more like hell, isn’t it? Rather, we will have much more perfect knowledge of God’s justice and will be satisfied that Divine justice has been served.

You need a re-think. Currently, where is the joy in your life? If our Lord allowed the masses to walk way then we must, in conforming our wills with His, allow the same - but only after presenting or living out the Gospel before them. The ball is in their court.

 

[friardchips]

One thought I have that I obsess on is whether or not people will be saved, let alone myself. With things such as the doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”, and the insights of saints and visionaries regarding how few are saved, the outlook seems extremely grim.

I worry that my family, friends, co-workers, virtually everyone I know, will go to Hell. What’s more, I feel like it will be my fault for not converting them.

I don’t feel like so many people deserve to go to Hell. I think that Hell shold be for the truly wicked. Yet, who am I to question God?

The Dogma is ‘No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church’…and a lot of people, including Catholics, don’t know what that actually means. But it is a lot less ‘limiting’ than what you might think. Pope Benedict XVI said that people can be saved outside of the Sacramental life (of course). And it ties in with the proper interpretation of this Dogma.

Here is a Catholic newspaper, with articles written by priests, that explains to some degree, what the Dogma means, and might help to give you a brief moment of relief:

catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/03/pope-francis-is-under-attack-for-saying-that-outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-its-a-poke-in-the-eye-says-one-presbyterian-why-hes-wrong/

 

[Anthony_V]

Some saints were of a more optimistic outlook. St. Francis de Sales thought that the majority would be saved. Same with a few of the Greek Fathers. It is reasonable to agree with them.

Keep in mind the Church has never officially declared on these things. The private revelation of the saints is not binding as articles of Faith.

When you hear the phrase, “No one is saved outside the Church,” that just means all graces come through the Church and save souls by uniting them to it. If there are pious non-Catholics out there in good faith and in a state of grace, they too are part of the Catholic Church – they just don’t know it!

 

[twf]

I too worry about this. As you say, many theologians and saints have opined that few will be saved. Yet, others have hoped that many more will be saved than we tend to think. I hope and pray that God’s mercy will triumph in the end. While Our Lord did use the word “few”, St. John did see a “great multitude” beyond count from every tribe and tongue in heaven in Revelation.

 

[Herculees]

REALLY, I never heard any of the saints saying few were saved.
The Catholic Church makes no claim as to how many IF any besides
Satan and his fallen angels being in Hell.

 

[TK421]

Some saints were of a more optimistic outlook. St. Francis de Sales thought that the majority would be saved.

That’s unusual for his time frame. Do you have a source? I’m curious to read it.

 

[friardchips]

Some saints were of a more optimistic outlook. St. Francis de Sales thought that the majority would be saved. Same with a few of the Greek Fathers. It is reasonable to agree with them.

Keep in mind the Church has never officially declared on these things. The private revelation of the saints is not binding as articles of Faith.

When you hear the phrase, “No one is saved outside the Church,” that just means all graces come through the Church and save souls by uniting them to it. If there are pious non-Catholics out there in good faith and in a state of grace, they too are part of the Catholic Church – they just don’t know it!

Jesus Himself said that the path is a narrow one (Matthew 7: 13-14).

The “phrase”, which is actually an infallibly (three times) declared Dogma: No salvation outside the Catholic Church does not “just mean” anything. The Dogma declares that the intercession of graces, sourced through the most holy and beautiful Catholic (Universal) Church, flows out to all of humankind. It is not just “pious non-Catholics” who are amongst those who can be saved but includes anyone, who, through no fault of their own, were not introduced to the Gospel. St. Paul said that God wishes all people to go to Heaven. This means there is a chance for everyone. However, the path is narrow, because even though people can be saved - thanks to the graces flowing from the Catholic Church - there are many who do not even live according to their GOD GIVEN conscience - and so, they, if persistent in their stubborn ways of ‘life’, can find themselves in Hell. But one does not have to be a “pious non- Catholic”. By this, you must mean a religious member of another religion, but this is too limiting. There may be non-religious who never had a chance to know God, too.

“…all graces come through the Church and save souls by uniting them to it.”

This makes more sense.

 

[Anthony_V]

Jesus Himself said that the path is a narrow one (Matthew 7: 13-14).

The “phrase”, which is actually an infallibly (three times) declared Dogma: No salvation outside the Catholic Church does not “just mean” anything. The Dogma declares that the intercession of graces, sourced through the most holy and beautiful Catholic (Universal) Church, flows out to all of humankind. It is not just “pious non-Catholics” who are amongst those who can be saved but includes anyone, who, through no fault of their own, were not introduced to the Gospel. St. Paul said that God wishes all people to go to Heaven. This means there is a chance for everyone. However, the path is narrow, because even though people can be saved - thanks to the graces flowing from the Catholic Church - there are many who do not even live according to their GOD GIVEN conscience - and so, they, if persistent in their stubborn ways of ‘life’, can find themselves in Hell. But one does not have to be a “pious non- Catholic”. By this, you must mean a religious member of another religion, but this is too limiting. There may be non-religious who never had a chance to know God, too.

I was giving “pious non-Catholics” as a good example, not as defining characteristic. Of non-Catholics, they are the most likely to (a) be in good faith and (b) make acts of perfect contrition on their deathbed.

My use of “just means” was intended to contrast with what seemed to me an implicit confusion in the OP’s post – that the formula “No salvation outside the Church,” indeed dogmatic, was confused with, say, a more Feeneyite or even Calvinist notion of explicit membership. I was not downplaying the dogmatic character of the formula, but downplaying an interpretive excess.

My apologies for the confusion.

Indeed, the way is narrow, but not in such a way that it a priori excludes a large amount of people treading upon it, even at once. Grace is not limited in that way. (It would just be difficult and uncomfortable, which seems to be the point anyway.)

 

[friardchips]

I was giving “pious non-Catholics” as a good example, not as defining characteristic. Of non-Catholics, they are the most likely to (a) be in good faith and (b) make acts of perfect contrition on their deathbed.

A. Sure - leading to B. B. Harder to define. If, for example, someone is repentant on their death bed, then they will have to spend less time in Purgatory compared with the person who, maybe having lived on some level of their being - possibly even fairly remotely (who knows) - in accord with ‘The Truth, The Way, and The Life’, but didn’t confess, would have to probably spend in Purgatory, in order to be sanctified.

My use of “just means” was intended to contrast with what seemed to me an implicit confusion in the OP’s post – that the formula “No salvation outside the Church,” indeed dogmatic, was confused with, say, a more Feeneyite or even Calvinist notion of explicit membership. I was not downplaying the dogmatic character of the formula, but downplaying an interpretive excess.

My apologies for the confusion.

Understood. Thank you for explaining. I think the “excess” is the difference between a God of Justice over-emphasis, in place of our knowledge that God, is the God of Mercy.

Indeed, the way is narrow, but not in such a way that it a priori excludes a large amount of people treading upon it, even at once. Grace is not limited in that way. (It would just be difficult and uncomfortable, which seems to be the point anyway.)

Sorry for my ignorance. I looked up a priori but still didn’t completely understand this paragraph. Could you explain a little, please?

Thanks.

 

[Anthony_V]

That’s unusual for his time frame. Do you have a source? I’m curious to read it.

Taking another look at the passage – which I had only before briefly looked through – I am unsure on St. Francis’ view on the overall number of the elect. But he thinks that out of the number of Christians, very few will be lost. I do not think I shared the sentiment I thought he had (that the majority of mankind is saved), but this one, which I suppose could be interpreted in a couple ways, I agree with.

The extreme gentleness of St. Francis de Sales, says the Bishop of Belley, from whom we borrow this chapter, always led him to the mildest opinions, however little probability they carried. We were conversing one day, in company, on this dreadful word of the Gospel: “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Someone remarked that the number of the elect was called a little flock, as that of fools, or of the reprobate, was called infinite, and such things. He answered that he thought very few Christians (he spoke of those in the true Church, out of which there is no salvation) would be damned; because, he said, having the root of the True Faith, sooner or later it usually yields its fruit, which is salvation, and from being dead, becomes living by charity. And when asked what, then, was the meaning of this word of the Gospel concerning the small number of the elect, he said that in comparison with the rest of the world and with infidel nations, the number of Christians was very small, but that of this small number there would be very few lost, according to this remarkable sentence:There is no damnation for those who are in Jesus Christ. (Rom. 8: 1). Which, indeed, is to be understood of justifying grace; but this grace is not separated from a faith living and animated by charity. Moreover, as He who gives the grace to begin, gives also the grace to perfect the undertaking, so it is credible that the vocation to Christianity, which is a work of God, is a perfect work, and conducts to the end of all consummation, which is glory.

Saint Francis de Sales. The Saint Francis de Sales Collection [16 Books] (Kindle Locations 36150-36162). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

The Consoling Thoughts of St. Francis de Sales, Book IV, “Consoling Thoughts on Eternity,” Supplement (trans. Pere Huegot)]

A stricter interpretation of the passage would yield: Most of the explicit members of the Catholic Church are saved. To us, that is a fairly uncontroversial, even normative view. With the sacraments and a good will, salvation is not difficult. At his point in time, certainly it was not uncontroversial, however.

A more loose interpretation would yield: Most of the members of the Catholic Church, both implicit and explicit, are saved. Both do indeed have “the root of the True Faith” in the relevant sense, unless they commit a mortal sin against theological faith. Otherwise, if he were more generally talking about those not in a state of mortal sin, St. Francis’ position would actually be false: that most of those who die in a state of grace are saved. Rather, *all *who die in such a state are saved. So mere mortal sin does not disqualify from St. Francis’ position, but rather those lacking either (a) initial justification, in which case they are ipso facto not members of the Church to begin with or (b) the root of the Truth Faith, i.e. the theological virtue of faith, as the passage says later concerning “living faith.” But then it would seem implicit members of the Church – e.g. non-Catholics who are in good faith, even if they are in a state of mortal sin – are also who St. Francis has in mind. Indeed, if he does not have implicit members in mind, why not just say “It is because of the sacraments?” That is the obvious advantage to being an explicit member of the Church. If this more loose interpretation is his position – that most of those who are justified to begin with, and have not committed a mortal sin against faith, are saved – it is indeed a bold one. But I strongly suspect he may be right on that count (for various reasons independent of being an optimist that ‘theological faith sooner or later yields its fruit’).

Still, either of those views would indeed be unusual for his time-frame. St. Francis de Sales was a kind of counter-balance to the excesses of his age – Calvinism and Lutheranism especially, but also their deranged, quasi-Catholic offspring in Baianism and later Jansenism. And praise God for sending such a saint to intercede during the de auxiliis controversy. We need more crafty optimists of such gentleness and orthodoxy.

 

[Anthony_V]

A. Sure - leading to B. B. Harder to define. If, for example, someone is repentant on their death bed, then they will have to spend less time in Purgatory compared with the person who, maybe having lived on some level of their being - possibly even fairly remotely (who knows) - in accord with ‘The Truth, The Way, and The Life’, but didn’t confess, would have to probably spend in Purgatory, in order to be sanctified.

Well, what matters most is that they die without mortal sin on their soul. Even if, for the most part, they lived a Christian life, that *itself *has no bearing on whether they are saved. What matters is that they die in a state of grace, not in mortal sin. If they die in a state of mortal sin, it’s not that they’ll be in purgatory longer. It’s that they won’t get to go to purgatory at all. Hence the importance of remitting mortal sin by some non-sacramental means for those who can’t confess. The main non-sacramental means, so far as most theologians know, is perfect contrition / perfect charity.

Sorry for my ignorance. I looked up a priori but still didn’t completely understand this paragraph. Could you explain a little, please?
Thanks.

Sure. I mean that the words “The way is narrow” does not of itself mean there cannot be much traffic. Physically narrow roads quite literally can only handle so many commuters. But the “narrow way” of the Gospel isn’t a physically narrow road. To take the “narrow way” is, at the bottom, to die in a state of grace. And there’s no limit, in itself, to the amount of people that can have that grace. It’s not like you reach a point at which God says, “Sorry, we’re all out.” Rather, the way is “narrow” because it has a lot of difficulties and trials: the grace of a holy death requires our conversion and repentance.

 

[friardchips]

Well, what matters most is that they die without mortal sin on their soul. Even if, for the most part, they lived a Christian life, that *itself *has no bearing on whether they are saved. What matters is that they die in a state of grace, not in mortal sin. If they die in a state of mortal sin, it’s not that they’ll be in purgatory longer. It’s that they won’t get to go to purgatory at all. Hence the importance of remitting mortal sin by some non-sacramental means for those who can’t confess. The main non-sacramental means, so far as most theologians know, is perfect contrition / perfect charity.

Thank you for your response. I’ll put something to you, if I may:

What happens to those who don’t know that a sin is mortal, let alone know what Sin, is? I will give an an example: Excommunication. If a person committed an abortion but did not know the Church punishment for such an evil act, they are not in fact in a state whereby they have been automatically excommunicated. And this is for people who have moved away from the Church. Those who have not had the awareness that Sin is an actual reality, would not even know they had to confess. Their consciences have to be formed first. Obviously, there are those who go against their consciences or don’t bother to learn, always choosing the selfish path, but this does not account for those who have not had access to the Gospel, not really delved too deeply into the concept of an eternal Creator, and therefore, probably die in a confused state, but whose hearts, it could be said, would have belonged to the Church. Now we cannot tell what state every person’s soul is in, when they die, and it could be the case that in the last moments, those who have lived their lives on some level of good intent, are given the option of perfect contrition. But we are taught that even after death, even when evil people have died, we are not called to judge whether a soul has gone to Heaven, or not. This is for God alone.

Sure. I mean that the words “The way is narrow” does not of itself mean there cannot be much traffic. Physically narrow roads quite literally can only handle so many commuters. But the “narrow way” of the Gospel isn’t a physically narrow road. To take the “narrow way” is, at the bottom, to die in a state of grace. And there’s no limit, in itself, to the amount of people that can have that grace. It’s not like you reach a point at which God says, “Sorry, we’re all out.” Rather, the way is “narrow” because it has a lot of difficulties and trials: the grace of a holy death requires our conversion and repentance.

Thank you. I kind of got the drift but wished for definite clarification. Yes, I see this too. This is the ideal. I tend to think of grace as opportunities for growing in humility - sometimes it can be a humbling practical experience - although as humans, all experiences are in some way on a practical level - but also very spiritual, or through suffering. Effort and suffering bring about graces that we can grow in humility. So maybe then this is the balance between the two. That even those who have lived even remotely on a level with The Word, have in some way attained an aspect of holiness upon their soul, though they might not be consciously aware of it.

 

[Anthony_V]

Thank you for your response. I’ll put something to you, if I may:

What happens to those who don’t know that a sin is mortal, let alone know what Sin, is? I will give an an example: Excommunication. If a person committed an abortion but did not know the Church punishment for such an evil act, they are not in fact in a state whereby they have been automatically excommunicated. And this is for people who have moved away from the Church. Those who have not had the awareness that Sin is an actual reality, would not even know they had to confess. Their consciences have to be formed first. Obviously, there are those who go against their consciences or don’t bother to learn, always choosing the selfish path, but this does not account for those who have not had access to the Gospel, not really delved too deeply into the concept of an eternal Creator, and therefore, probably die in a confused state, but whose hearts, it could be said, would have belonged to the Church.

One doesn’t need to know the specifics of what a mortal sin is in order to commit one. They just need to know what a serious (or “grave”) matter is. Even if they don’t use those words. Anyone over the age of reason can understand it pretty easily: some things are not just wrong, but seriously wrong. It’s a serious matter to commit adultery, to kill people, to steal large amounts of money, etc. Even if someone doesn’t know what this strange thing called a “mortal sin” is, but they do something they know to be seriously wrong, they nevertheless commit a mortal sin.

Now, such persons may be shielded by invincible ignorance for quite a lot of other things which would easily be a mortal sin for a catechized Catholic, e.g., contraception. In fact, these non-Catholic or otherwise non-catechized people might even have very few mortal sins on their conscience. I would like to hope so. But even if they have just a few, they are in a precarious situation if they do not have access to the sacraments, or if they do not have recourse to them.

Now we cannot tell what state every person’s soul is in, when they die, and it could be the case that in the last moments, those who have lived their lives on some level of good intent, are given the option of perfect contrition. But we are taught that even after death, even when evil people have died, we are not called to judge whether a soul has gone to Heaven, or not. This is for God alone.

Sure – knowledge of who is in heaven, purgatory, or hell is not readily accessible to us. And probably for the better. But, as I said above, people on earth without the sacraments are in a precarious situation, and are exposed to final despair. It’s best to get them out of that situation.

 

[fred_conty]

One thought I have that I obsess on is whether or not people will be saved, let alone myself. With things such as the doctrine of “no salvation outside the Church”, and the insights of saints and visionaries regarding how few are saved, the outlook seems extremely grim.

I worry that my family, friends, co-workers, virtually everyone I know, will go to Hell. What’s more, I feel like it will be my fault for not converting them.

I don’t feel like so many people deserve to go to Hell. I think that Hell shold be for the truly wicked. Yet, who am I to question God?

I would like to preface this by saying that I believe we are our brother’s keeper especially in regard to this matter. And I believe you are correct in not just taking this so matter of factly.

I don’t know, and really don’t care, to know how many are going up or down. What I really care about is that no one goes down … not one. And I’m sure that looking at the world at large in it’s human trafficing, drugs, porn, slavery, brutality, murders, adultery, and on and on, that there are some not making it.

And it is this thought that should drive us to urgency and anxiety to pray to our dear kind Lord who can change this for even one person. For it is a terrible thing to contemplate an un-ending horrible nightmare from which one never escapes, and in which all hope for waking up from the worst possible experience will never happen. Now put yourself in that position for just a moment. Now what would you want for someone to have done for you if you had one wish.

It is extremely encombant on the goodness of our heart and imperative to do for them what they themselves do not know needs to be done, as we would have wanted for ourself.

Is “how many” really that important? Or is it that we know from the world around us there are some who need us as their savour and maybe have no other hope and determining factor than we?

I do believe it is a mistake to be centering on the “whys” or the “whos” for then we become victims of our own thinking. It is enough to know that there are some who desperately need our prayers. And it could just be that our prayer may save someone else’s relative, and the prayer which they say will save our relative. For we do know that the Lord himself has said that what we measure out to others will be the measure used on us.
And he wasn’t saying this to be harsh but simple to instruct us that love begets love.

 

[fin]

Excellent post. You mentioned a lot of important things.

OP, you probably already know this, but in the Diary of St. Faustina, Jesus said to pray this prayer for the conversion of a sinner: 'Oh Blood and Water which flowed out feom the Heart of Jesus as a fountain of mercy for us, I trust in You."

I watched an EWTN documentary, forgot the title. Fr. Bill Casey from the Fathers of Mercy said something along these lines. If we love someone, we want the best for them. What is the best? How about God, how about heaven?

God bless you OP for untirelessly working for the salvation of your loved ones.

I would like to preface this by saying that I believe we are our brother’s keeper especially in regard to this matter. And I believe you are correct in not just taking this so matter of factly.

I don’t know, and really don’t care, to know how many are going up or down. What I really care about is that no one goes down … not one. And I’m sure that looking at the world at large in it’s human trafficing, drugs, porn, slavery, brutality, murders, adultery, and on and on, that there are some not making it.

And it is this thought that should drive us to urgency and anxiety to pray to our dear kind Lord who can change this for even one person. For it is a terrible thing to contemplate an un-ending horrible nightmare from which one never escapes, and in which all hope for waking up from the worst possible experience will never happen. Now put yourself in that position for just a moment. Now what would you want for someone to have done for you if you had one wish.

It is extremely encombant on the goodness of our heart and imperative to do for them what they themselves do not know needs to be done, as we would have wanted for ourself.

Is “how many” really that important? Or is it that we know from the world around us there are some who need us as their savour and maybe have no other hope and determining factor than we?

I do believe it is a mistake to be centering on the “whys” or the “whos” for then we become victims of our own thinking. It is enough to know that there are some who desperately need our prayers. And it could just be that our prayer may save someone else’s relative, and the prayer which they say will save our relative. For we do know that the Lord himself has said that what we measure out to others will be the measure used on us.
And he wasn’t saying this to be harsh but simple to instruct us that love begets love.