Worship Music (as well as other styles of music) in Evangelical and Catholic Settings

[Cat]

I would like to make a comment or two about the actual topic and the opening post.

My husband and I really disliked the Praise and Worship time during our last few years in the Evangelical Protestant churches.

The article posted in the OP does a good job of criticizing this trend in Protestant churches.

Now before I go on, I want to make it clear that in the Evangelical Protestant churches, there is no “liturgy” or “prescribed order of worship.” Churches are totally free to do anything they wish for the church service. So a Praise and Worship time is not something improper or inappropriate.

Also, for those Catholics who don’t know much about Evangelical Protestantism, I want to make it clear that many churches have a specific time set aside for “Praise and Worship.” In our churches, this time lasted about 20 minutes. A live praise band provides the accompaniment. Usually this band will include a keyboard, a drum, and at least one guitar, usually acoustic, but sometimes electric. Sometimes there is a bass guitar, too. Usually everyone in the Praise Band sings (sometimes the drummer doesn’t), and there is often at least one “lead singer,” often more, who doesn’t/don’t play any instruments (but sometimes they do.)

Sometimes music tracks are used. It all depends on who in the church is available and willing to play for the Praise and Worship time, and whether they are capable of playing the correct style of music. Although some classically-trained people can switch to contemporary and play it well (e.g., me), others can’t, and sound really dreadful trying to play contemporary music (especially the rhythms).

So during the Praise and Worship time, the band/singers will do a set of several songs, usually starting with something fairly lively (perhaps involving hand-clapping), and then some “bridge songs”, and finally something very emotional and slow and “worship-ful.”

Meanwhile the congregation will worship and praise God during this time. Some will join in the singing, and many will simply close their eyes, raise their hands, and pray. Often it seems that people are oblivious to everything and everyone around them as they worship.

For many (not all) Catholics and others who are used to a liturgical worship, this Praise and Worship time is often very appealing. The freedom and the joy is beautiful to see, and depending on the musicians, the music can be very inspiring.

OK, that’s Praise and Worship time. But that’s not the only way Praise and Worship songs are used in an Evangelical Protestant worship service. In many services, several hymns are done at various times in the worship service. In the past, many of these hymns were the same “traditional hymns” found in many Catholic hymnals; e.g., Holy God, We Praise Thy Name." In many Evangelical Protestant churches, these hymns are never or seldom done anymore, and all the congregational singing is praise and worship style music.

What I dislike about Praise and Worship songs used as congregational hymns is that they are not meant to be sung by a congregation. They’re great solo or ensemble pieces, but they are meant to be sung in a contemporary style, with irregular rhythms that often “swing,” and with “sliding” or “slurring.” That’s why most Praise and Worship bands/singers will get together and practice their sets, and they sound pretty good.

But this style of singing is really REALLY HARD for a congregation of mixed ages to do! If they even attempt it, they are not “together” and there’s a lot of disunity in the singing.

The older hymns, and many of the newer hymns written in a traditional style, are MEANT to be sung corporately, by everyone of all ages, ideally in at least four parts, along with the treble provided by the little children in the congregation! When done by an enthusiastic congregation and good musicians (organ/piano/guitar, and maybe a percussion instrument), these hymns and this kind of congregational singing is inspiring and uplifting!

This is what I miss more than anything about being Protestant–hearing and DOING this kind of congregational singing. Every once in a while, I’ll hear it in some Catholic churches, but not very often. So many Catholics simply have no concept of the value of congregational singing, so they don’t join in. Some Catholics even derisively call this type of full-voiced congregational singing “Protestant”. IMO, that’s the devil talking.

So what we are seeing is Evangelical Protestant churches less singing together, a lot more sitting (or standing, which is usually what’s done in Praise and Worship time), and just listening to the musicians and never actually joining in the singing, but just worshipping God in their hearts. Just like Catholics during Mass. (I wonder what some of my Evangelical Protestant friends would say if I labelled their Praise and Worship time as “Catholic.”)

I can’t imagine marching into a martyrs’ arena singing Praise and Worship songs together. It would sound pretty puny, especially without the instruments.

I hope that Evangelical Protestants will eventually return to real congregational singing and not abandon the rich hymnody that has been part of Protestantism since the days of Martin Luther. It’s a terrible thing to think of losing the beautiful Fanny Crosby hymns, or the hymns of the Wesleys, or Phillip Bliss and Ira Sankey, or the contemporary hymns written by Ralph Carmichael and Keith Green. Even the A.B. Simpson hymns sound good (at least the words). So much depth in these hymns compared to many of the very simplistic Praise and Worship songs.

 

[ProVobis]

Again, it’s what you were raised with.

But many times, people also despise what they once loved. Depends on the individual, circumstances, and the environment I guess. Adjustment comes with a psychology all its own. Just sayin…

 

[agapewolf]

Cat, normally I agree with you, and I have a suspicion I still do, but I define “praise and worship” differently than you do.

I think praise and worship is incredibly easy to sing-- long tones, repetitive…simple. A lot like chant. (more like chant than metered hymns, actually).

How great is our God, Take my life (holiness), Here I am to worship, Great light of the world. Simple, singable, scriptural

Are you possibly referring to more Contemporary Christian music played on the radio? I would agree with you then.

 

[Denise1957]

I didn’t know where to post this, so if this does not belong here, moderators, please remove.

This article was brought to my attention by an evangelical friend of mine who loves praise music, loves to worship with praise music at his church (is also a classical musician and makes his living as one), but he and apparently others, are concerned with direction where praise worship and the music is going for their Sunday worship and other worship. I bring this up because I know there are differing ideas of how music in the Catholic Church should be used. I have colleagues in “real life” who think praise music is the way to go. While I don’t think it is based on my understanding and reading of what liturgical music is supposed to be, I do know that there are parishes in other parts of the country which focus on that kind of music. I think talking and listening to Evangelicals who are currently facing this dilemma would do well to ensure that their liturgies don’t go the same directions which my Evangelical friends/family members are dealing with right now.

I also think that this could go along with music in other styles and genres… not just P&W.

And please, I don’t want this to become a bashing of music and styles or ways of prayer. What I want is a healthy discussion in how to make sure that music doesn’t become the focal point and performance point.

worthilymagnify.com/2014/05/19/crash/

Maybe one to to make sure (or to perhaps suggest a change) is to give a reminder that the Mass (the entirety of the Mass) is actually a prayer. It’s the longest prayer of the Church, I think. We sign ourselves at the beginning and at end of Mass, just as we do at other times when we pray. Music, IMO, should reflect what is appropriate in prayer. That’s one reason, among many, that I like Gregorian chant, because it’s sung prayer. I don’t know if ‘praise and worship’ music is actually considered prayer. Somehow I don’t think so.

 

[Cat]

Cat, normally I agree with you, and I have a suspicion I still do, but I define “praise and worship” differently than you do.

I think praise and worship is incredibly easy to sing-- long tones, repetitive…simple. A lot like chant. (more like chant than metered hymns, actually).

How great is our God, Take my life (holiness), Here I am to worship, Great light of the world. Simple, singable, scriptural

Are you possibly referring to more Contemporary Christian music played on the radio? I would agree with you then.

The Evangelical Protestant churches that I attended (up until 2002) did some of the simplistic P and W songs (As the Deer Panteth For the Water is one of my favorites). But they also did a lot more complex P and W, the same songs that are done on the Christian radio. The lead singer would do a lot of the vocal improv that the professionals do, and of course, this was not something that the congregation could sing along with, although some people did try.

Just as in Catholic Mass, it’s not always necessary for the congregation to sing along, that was also the situation in P and W Time. You don’t have to sing along to worship God. I get that.

But what happened in my churches is that as P and W took over, we sang less and less of the congregational hymns with organ and/or piano accompaniment. In several of the Evangelical Protestant churches that I still keep up with, the organ is closed and locked, only played for the funerals of old folks at the request of the family. But it’s never used to accompany hymns anymore. The Praise Band does that, or sound tracks controlled by a sound tech.

Now I have no problem with P and W along with singing traditional/contemporary congregational hymns. In my perfect world, the Evangelical Protestant worship service would feature a mix of both P and W (simple and complex), and congregational singing accompanied by organ/piano/guitars/maybe percussion.

But I hate the fact that P and W has utterly eclipsed any hymn singing in many Evangelical Protestant churches.

Many of my mother’s (R.I.P.)friends left our church (Baptist) and moved to mainline churches (Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian, etc.) so that they could continue to hear the organ and the hymns. They knew that the theology was questionable in some of these churches, and the politics were abhorrent, and gay or female pastors were becoming the norm.

It just goes to show how very important music really is in worship of God (the longest book in the Bible is a songbook–think about that!) that people are willing to leave churches that teach basic, orthodox Christianity and attend churches that teach New Age-tinged philosophies and encourage practices such as homosexual sexual relationships that are actually sin.

 

[ProVobis]

But if I was asked (and the asking would have to be in English), of course I would play if I were available. It’s a service to God and His people.

I only used Spanish as an example. The reason I asked was that elsewhere you listed some of your favorite composers, none of which was English. But then maybe you were talking about non-vocal music? But isn’t non-vocal music a form of international prayer and worship? Sorry if I’m taking things in an unwanted direction.

 

[Cat]

I only used Spanish as an example. The reason I asked was that elsewhere you listed some of your favorite composers, none of which was English. But then maybe you were talking about non-vocal music? But isn’t non-vocal music a form of international prayer and worship? Sorry if I’m taking things in an unwanted direction.

Non-vocal music is a universal language that can be understood by all.

I want to understand what is being said. I think that is a noble goal and one that more Catholics should aspire to. A lack of understanding of their faith is one of the major reasons why many Catholics (and Protestants) fail to out their faith in their daily lives or fail to find solace in their faith.

Since the Mass is the major teaching time in the lives of most Catholics, it makes sense to me that it should be understood.

 

[ProVobis]

Non-vocal music is a universal language that can be understood by all.

Thank you.

 

[Beautiful]

Have you visited any of the big shrines/cathedrals in the United States and been to Mass? The organists in these places don’t play quietly on the hymns! It’s glorious! Deafening at times!

.

Yes, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in D.C.
That place is so large. It needs a big booming organ just to fill the place.

Today’s music was so wrong. I don’t have the heart to pick apart all that needs correcting.
I didn’t see any parishioners singing.

 

[Sarabande]

What an experience yesterday, and all I could think about afterwards was this discussion. I cantored at a parish for the first time at their Vigil Mass. The music director warned me that the parish NEVER sings, so to not be upset. They don’t really have a cantor, except for one from the parish who doesn’t really sing and doesn’t always show up, so half the time, they don’t have a cantor. Well, from the moment the first phrase of the processional hymn was sung, the congregation was singing through to the end of the mass. And they sang really well. I thought to myself, “They actually sing pretty well… even the priest and deacon were singing out really well. They sound great. I can even back off.”

After the mass, the music director was so excited and beside herself. She couldn’t believe it that they sang and did it so well, because she said they usually just keep their mouths closed. Then, a few people came up after the mass to thank us and told us it was so helpful having a strong, confident voice leading, because it made them feel brave enough to sing out and not feel naked. Very humbling and exciting at the same time. I was so happy to have been able to help get them to sing out. That said, every parish dynamic is different. Another parish may not need a cantor to lead in order to help them sing, while this parish did.

 

[Cat]

Maybe one to to make sure (or to perhaps suggest a change) is to give a reminder that the Mass (the entirety of the Mass) is actually a prayer. It’s the longest prayer of the Church, I think. We sign ourselves at the beginning and at end of Mass, just as we do at other times when we pray. Music, IMO, should reflect what is appropriate in prayer. That’s one reason, among many, that I like Gregorian chant, because it’s sung prayer. I don’t know if ‘praise and worship’ music is actually considered prayer. Somehow I don’t think so.

Yes, praise and worship music is prayer.

You don’t “feel” it as prayer because you didn’t grow up with it.

And I don’t “feel” Gregorian chant as prayer because I didn’t grow up with it.

I accept intellectually that Gregorian chant is prayer. Perhaps someday, I will actually “feel it,” although as I mentioned earlier in the thread, it’s been 11 years and no dice yet.

I hope that you can accept intellectually that praise and worship music is prayer. You may never have the opportunity to learn to “feel” it as prayer, and that’s fine. But I recommend that you be careful about saying that it isn’t prayer. A lot of Evangelical Protestants from many denominations and non-denominational fellowships/churches would be hurt and offended by this.

 

[AloysiusBologna]

I can’t imagine marching into a martyrs’ arena singing Praise and Worship songs together. It would sound pretty puny, especially without the instruments.

I hope that Evangelical Protestants will eventually return to real congregational singing and not abandon the rich hymnody that has been part of Protestantism since the days of Martin Luther. It’s a terrible thing to think of losing the beautiful Fanny Crosby hymns, or the hymns of the Wesleys, or Phillip Bliss and Ira Sankey, or the contemporary hymns written by Ralph Carmichael and Keith Green. Even the A.B. Simpson hymns sound good (at least the words). So much depth in these hymns compared to many of the very simplistic Praise and Worship songs.

:clapping:

The image of the martyrs gave me pause…Thank you. I have another tool to promote Voice and those instruments (especially organs) that mimic voices. Gregorian chant does not need to be grown up with…you can join anytime…

 

[bobballen_18]

And yes, I love a rock band in church. Yes, in church! Because of my background in Evangelical Protestant churches (we did not visit bars or nightclubs), I see absolutely no irreverence in rock music in church (as long as the band is attired modestly). Quite the opposite–I think that loud rock music especially expresses the grandeur of the Lord God quite well.

I do NOT think that the pipe organ (or electronic organ) is the ONLY appropriate instrument for use in the Mass. I get upset when Catholics on CAF try to make this argument. It’s just not true. Other instruments are allowed as the territorial authority approves them.

If I am asked to “substantiate my claims” then I will, in time. But regarding “rock bands” in Church, I think the Church has been clear throughout her entire history, including up to today, that effort should be expended to keep the secular out of the sacred. I.e., in the context of music, keep secular style music out of the Liturgy.

Regarding the second paragraph of yours I quoted. I’d definitely agree with you that organ is not the only appropriate instrument for Church. It is, however, upheld as some sort of ideal, and the problem I have is that there is very little movement to even aim towards upholding the Church’s belief on this. I agree with you though that Catholics are to blame for this - we have to “grow” them ourselves and we aren’t doing that, and that’s largely because we aren’t being encouraged to do so, either by those higher up or otherwise.

Regarding the “territorial authority” - many “territorial authorities” are completely fine with not aiming to uphold a very high standard for sacred music. Certainly a lot goes into this with regards to “territorial authorities” making decisions on the matter, and I understand it can be difficult. I only hope that Catholics themselves who are aware of the Church’s musical tradition do their utmost to preserve and promote it - and this is the only way situations will improve. Complaining won’t do anything unless there is also movement to change things. I’m definitely guilty of complaining too much, at times, though I am technically involved in the “movement to change things”, quite directly. It’ll sure be interesting how things play out for me and for the future of Church music. It is and will continue to be an adventure, that’s for sure.