Worship of Mary?

[JRKH]

Assume that you are a tourist who visits a foreign land.

You notice that local inhabitans have statues of an entity called Bu’gundu, they wear images of Bu’gundu on their necks, and they kneel before the statues of Bu’gundu and pray. The word Bu’gundu can be heard in the prayers.

Then, you meet an anthropologist who explains to you that in local theology, Bu’gundu is actually a lesser deity, who has no power by itself; so technically, it is actually not a deity at all. All Bu’gundu does is relay your prayer requests to U’ruma, which is the all-powerful deity. You immediately ask why the locals don’t pay to U’ruma directly and skip the middleman? Well, the anthropologist explains, the locals believe that U’ruma has a special relationship with Bu’gundu, so if Bu’gundu presents your case, then you have more chance for a favorable resolution than if you addressed U’ruma himself.

Would you conclude that the locals worship a deity named Bu’gundu and why?

I would NOT conclude that the locals worshiped Bu’gundu for the simple reason that the person who is explaining it to me has TOLD me that they do not and I assume he got his information from the locals…

I would most certainly not tell the locals that they are wrong and that they really ARE worshiping the thing that they have very carefully explained that they are NOT worshiping.

Yet sometimes…This is what happens to us Catholics and the OP’s quote is a perfect example. There can be no doubt but that the author of that piece has had this explained to him and yet he insists on trying to tell us “locals” that we are wrong…

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Would you conclude that the locals worship a deity named Bu’gundu and why?

No more than if I walked into this auditorium and concluded that they are worshipping a box of kleenex.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[JRKH]

No more than if I walked into this auditorium and concluded that they are worshipping a box of kleenex.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WX2PTUuQiQs/S7H70DewF-I/AAAAAAAAA5U/Tlao9fNTgpE/s1600/altar_call.jpg

:bowdown::tissues:

Actually some mornings I feel like I might be worshiping…
:bowdown:

Peace
James

 

[zz912]

Considering how many things were flat out wrong in the quote from the minister, maybe you should reconsider using him as a source of information?

 

[zz912]

This pastor’s words are strong but are in line with what the bible speaks about, so in that respect, the pastor is only affirming what God has written down.

The Catholic church is comprised of both Sacred Scripture (the bible) and Tradition (man made laws), thus the Catholic religion is a mix of both God’s infallible Word and man made tradition. To know this is to understand why Catholics pray to Mary, as Marian devotions are still going strong in certain parts of the world. The Catholic church too has not given her stamp of approval on many of the Marian apparitions that have come to light, thus while the church upholds Mary in a highly exalted position, the church does not fully back up many of the Marian apparitions in and of themselves. Nevertheless, many Catholics are taught to pray to Mary at a very young age and so Mary has become for many Catholics the link to God, for who better to offer help to us sinners than the mother of Jesus Christ herself?

To understand Mary is to understand the makeup of the Catholic church, which is again, founded on God’s Word and man’s tradition passed down throughout the ages. However, nowhere in the bible does it state that we ought to pray to Mary, no matter how exalted her status within the church… God, knowing that people needed to see a visible representation of Himself on earth, sent His son, Jesus Christ, to stand for Him. Jesus often said, “when you see me you see the Father, for the Father and I are one”. Jesus also said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the life. Whoever believes in me will have eternal life”. Thus, Jesus and Jesus alone points the way to the Father and to our salvation.

While no one questions the authenticity of Mary as the mother of God, God Himself gave us Jesus His Son to lead us out of the darkness into the light. Mary will always be the mother of God, but Jesus is the one and only true Savior of the world.

Jesus Rocks

Sacred Tradition is what determined what books were in Sacred Scripture. So if you are correct, and Tradition is just man-made, then your whole faith relies on the man-made tradition.

 

[PRmerger]

:bowdown::tissues:

Actually some mornings I feel like I might be worshiping…
:bowdown:

Peace
James

heh! How did you get the little icon of the box of tissues? Very cool!

And, yes, right now I am bowing down before the almighty cup of coffee! (Simmer down folks, it’s only a metaphorical bowing down, 'kay? )

 

[JRKH]

heh! How did you get the little icon of the box of tissues? Very cool!

Believe it or not, the box of tissues is right in the list of smilies here at CAF. Click on “more” at the look near the bottom of the pop up window…It’s in with the slice of pizza and stuff…

I was surprised too when I saw it…

And, yes, right now I am bowing down before the almighty cup of coffee! (Simmer down folks, it’s only a metaphorical bowing down, 'kay? )

I’ve already sacrificed at least 4 cups at the Shrine of Mr Coffee and his patron saint - Juan Valdez…



Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Believe it or not, the box of tissues is right in the list of smilies here at CAF. Click on “more” at the look near the bottom of the pop up window…It’s in with the slice of pizza and stuff…

I was surprised too when I saw it…

Interesting. I thought that I had navigated my way through the CAFs in its entirety and knew this place backwards and forwards! Something new every day, eh?

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

In contending that the Hail Mary is idolotry, fundamentalists have some ‘splainin’
to do. The entire prayer is lifted right from the face of Scripture.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.

(Luke 1:28)

Blessed are you among women and
blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

(Luke 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God.

(Luke 1:43)

Pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of are death.

(Luke 6:27-36)

Jesus explicitly tells us to pray for each other and to ask each other to pray for us.

Yet, when we ask His own mother- the one full of grace, the blessed one, the mother of God, the Ark of the Covenant, the Woman clothed with the Sun (Revelation 11:19-12:1)- to pray for us, to HIM, we are accused of idolotry.

It’s a funny old world, isn’t it?

Hat Tip - Deeper Truth Blog
deepertruthblog.com/

 

[JRKH]

In contending that the Hail Mary is idolotry, fundamentalists have some ‘splainin’
to do. The entire prayer is lifted right from the face of Scripture.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.

(Luke 1:28)

Blessed are you among women and
blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

(Luke 1:42)

Holy Mary, Mother of God.

(Luke 1:43)

Pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of are death.

(Luke 6:27-36)

Jesus explicitly tells us to pray for each other and to ask each other to pray for us.

Yet, when we ask His own mother- the one full of grace, the blessed one, the mother of God, the Ark of the Covenant, the Woman clothed with the Sun (Revelation 11:19-12:1)- to pray for us, to HIM, we are accused of idolotry.

It’s a funny old world, isn’t it?

Hat Tip - Deeper Truth Blog
deepertruthblog.com/

I’ve met few protestants who have a big problem with the Hail Mary…Usually when they do it stems, not from worship issues but more from “prayers to saints” issues.

I HAVE met protestants who have a problem with some other Marian prayers…Starting wit the “Hail Holy Queen”…That one takes a bit more explaining due to the way the prayer is structured and how it translates from Latin to English (kinda clumsily)

Peace
James

 

[Daisy85]

Absolutely–the Catholic Home Study, Christ’s Mother and Ours is a wonderful book in a wonderful series of books. I am on my 4th book and have found them very good to learn the catholic faith. Sometimes, I have to read something more than once to really understand, but thats ok. There is a workbook with every paperback to help you understand. They are free. Contact: chss@ldd.net to get started. Another book I’ve been reading is “The True Devotion to the blessed Virgin” by Saint Louis-Marie De Montfort. It is hardbound and explains alot about how God created Mary, i.e. the attributes that he formed in her. Good Luck with whatever research you plan to do. Daisy85

 

[dsully]

I’ve met few protestants who have a big problem with the Hail Mary…Usually when they do it stems, not from worship issues but more from “prayers to saints” issues.

Agreed. This has been one of the main issues for me, but I am opening up to it. A key verse has been Eph. 1:10 (and its sister verses, Col. 1:19-20). Although I have not done a detailed study, and I am not an authoritative interpreter of Scripture, it seems that these verses speak of God creating a unity of beings on heaven and earth through the work of Christ. Isn’t that the Catholic Church, with its heavenly saints and earthly ones?

I know that there are verses in the Old Testament that prohibit prayers to the dead, but I wonder if these laws were for Israel rather than the Church. The magnitude of Christ’s work does seem to change some things.

 

[jlhargus]

The words i am quoting below are not my own, but are from a source that i have been reluctant to read from because of how inflammatory they are. I am posting these words that are from a prominent protestant evangelical because the issue of Mary has been something that I have never been able to understand nor come to a conclusion about. Also I had trusted this minister and heard many a christian reference him before as a trustworthy resource. I was raised baptist but my bestfriend is roman catholic. He and I have tried talking many times about this issue, but it is difficult.
“… there are millions all over the world who worship Mary. Millions of images of her in every imaginable form are scattered throughout the world. They’re obviously not able to even be counted…millions of them in every form and every location, churches, cathedrals, shrines, houses, streets, cars, wallets, everywhere are images, pictures, representations of Mary. Millions upon millions of people every day pray to her. They pray to her to save them. They pray to her to protect them. They pray to her to help them, to comfort them, to rescue them, to bring them to heaven and she has never heard one of those prayers ever. By any honest definition, this is idolatry, this is a severe violation of the first commandment, to have no other gods but the true and living God, is no different than pagan idolatry which God totally condemns as an abomination. So let’s just get that clear at the beginning.”

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.

JL: Using that prominent evangelical’s theory, THAT appearance of worship IS WORSHIP due God alone. Then all the following would be commiting idolatry.

I’ll try to make a long story short. Things are not always as they APPEAR TO some.

In a battle, between Israel and the Philistines, Isarel lost the ark of the Covenant to them. Because of the iniquity of the sons of Eli. Eli the Judge of Israel knew about his sons iniquity but did nothing about it. See 1Sam 3:8-14. The ark had caused great suffering to the Philistines, see 1 Sam 6:1-21, they wanted rid of it. They placed it on a cart pulled by two Oxen. The Philistine’s truned them loose to go where they would. The Philistine Lords, followed the Ark at a distance to see if it returned to Israel.

[1Sam 6:12: …the cows went in the direction of Bethshemesh…they turned neither right nor left the lords of the Philistines followed to the border of Bethshemesh 13 …the people of Bethshemesh were reaping their wheat … when … they saw the ark they rejoiced 14 The cart came to the field of Joshua … A great stone was there they split the wood of the cart and offered the cows as a burnt offering to the LORD …16 when the five lords of the Philistines saw it they returned to Ekron].

When the ark came to Bethshemesh they put the ark on a great stone The cart was torn apart for wood to burn and the oxen where offered as a burnt offering (sacrifice). Were the Israelites worshiping the ark? It would APPEAR so to outsiders. Wasn’t the ark, a golden box with angels on top made by hands, carried in procession, with great honor, before the Israelites as they moved from place to place,Joshua 3:3-.

What do you think the five Philistine lords thought when they saw the Israelites sacrificing with the ark on a great stone? They probably thought the Israelites were worshiping the ark, but we know better. Just as we know better when one kneels before a statue or bows down before a king. We are to give honor to whom honor is due. The Israelites knew whom they worshiped even if it seemed to others they worshiped the ark. We know who we worship and don’t worship, even if it APPEARS to others otherwise.

[Jos 5:13…when Joshua was by Jericho…he lifted up his eyes … there stood a man … with his sword drawn in his hand … Joshua … said … are you for us or against us? 14…he said No, I come as captain of the host of the LORD …Joshua fell on his face to the earth and did worship and said … What does my lord say to his servant?] This man with the sword was probably Michael the Archangel, Joshua would have venerated (worshiped) the holy person not adored (worshiped) due God alone. He did not make the holy person his god or equal to God, but bowed down in reverence.

[Dn 8:16…I heard a man’s voice … which … said, Gabriel, make this man … understand the vision 17 So he came near where I stood and when he came I was afraid and fell upon my face … he said … Understand O son of man at the time of the end shall be the vision] With veneraton or reverence he fell on his face (bowed down). To those seeing, and mistakenly taught such things are worship, due God alone. Would believe this was idolatry.

Today Israelites leave written prayers and stand before the Wailing Wall offering prayers. Some back out so as not to trun their back to the wall. It would APPEAR to some they are worshiping the wall. I too would venerate that wall. As a Catholic I know they are venerating the wall because of it’s holy significance. Mary is ark of the new covenant

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark, not made by hands, would contain, in her womb. The real living Word of God, CHRIST. The real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark, made by hands, contained but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

 

[deformed]

The verse below was from a Universalis website (LOTH online). I love the site, and prayed the Saturday Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The verse below is from the hymn. I’ll admit that the word worship in reference to Mary made me uncomfortable. I feel that I’m coming home to the church, but recently a few things I’ve read have made me a little uncomfortable.

Sinners, we worship thy sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for thy pity we plead:
Grant us the shield of thy sov’reign protection,
Measure thine aid by the depth of our need.

Father, guide me in your ways. Jesus show me the place of your mother in the Church. Spirit, grant me wisdom.

Mary, virgin mother of Jesus, please show yourself to me. Please pray that the Holy Spirit would guide me into all truth.

Amen.

 

[PRmerger]

The verse below was from a Universalis website (LOTH online). I love the site, and prayed the Saturday Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The verse below is from the hymn. I’ll admit that the word worship in reference to Mary made me uncomfortable. I feel that I’m coming home to the church, but recently a few things I’ve read have made me a little uncomfortable.

Sinners, we worship thy sinless perfection;
Fallen and weak, for thy pity we plead:
Grant us the shield of thy sov’reign protection,
Measure thine aid by the depth of our need.

Father, guide me in your ways. Jesus show me the place of your mother in the Church. Spirit, grant me wisdom.

Mary, virgin mother of Jesus, please show yourself to me. Please pray that the Holy Spirit would guide me into all truth.

Amen.

See this thread that discusses “worship” of Mary in the Catholic sense: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=334887

Short answer: there is dulia, hyperdulia and *latria *to describe our prayers. Latria is that which is reserved only for God. Hyperdulia is the “worship” (poor English translation) of Mary. Dulia is our “worship” of the saints.

 

[Church_Militant]

See this thread that discusses “worship” of Mary in the Catholic sense: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=334887

Short answer: there is dulia, hyperdulia and *latria *to describe our prayers. Latria is that which is reserved only for God. Hyperdulia is the “worship” (poor English translation) of Mary. Dulia is our “worship” of the saints.

Best brief explanation. The fact is that we do not, (unlike what some posters have said) “worship” the Blessed Virgin. That is not an accurate translation of the Hyperdulia into modern English, so it’s unwise to go around telling people that we do and that we need to reclaim the discussion. Catholic apologetics is, by definition, the explanation and defense of the Catholic faith and so inaccurate information and rhetoric serves no good end.

 

[Ignatius]

The words i am quoting below are not my own,"… there are millions all over the world who worship Mary. Millions of images of her in every imaginable form are scattered throughout the world. They’re obviously not able to even be counted…millions of them in every form and every location, churches, cathedrals, shrines, houses, streets, cars, wallets, everywhere are images, pictures, representations of Mary. Millions upon millions of people every day pray to her. They pray to her to save them. They pray to her to protect them. They pray to her to help them, to comfort them, to rescue them, to bring them to heaven and she has never heard one of those prayers ever. By any honest definition, this is idolatry, this is a severe violation of the first commandment, to have no other gods but the true and living God, is no different than pagan idolatry which God totally condemns as an abomination. So let’s just get that clear at the beginning."

If anyone can shed some light on this or just give me there thoughts i would appreciate it.

I haven’t a clue what he’s talking about. The Catholic Church teaches that God Alone is to be worshiped. See the Catechism of The Catholic Church.

Shouldn’t he be the one to provide proof of his outrageous and false accusations.

 

[PRmerger]

Best brief explanation. The fact is that we do not, (unlike what some posters have said) “worship” the Blessed Virgin. That is not an accurate translation of the Hyperdulia into modern English, so it’s unwise to go around telling people that we do and that we need to reclaim the discussion. Catholic apologetics is, by definition, the explanation and defense of the Catholic faith and so inaccurate information and rhetoric serves no good end.

Right. Except we need to be aware that it does indeed say in an encyclical: “worship of the Mother of God”.

**Originally posted by Pope Pius X: **For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Now these latter can only have one object, which is that we should fully carry out what the divine Son of Mary commands.

And then be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us, with gentleness and reverence.

 

[Taestron]

See this thread that discusses “worship” of Mary in the Catholic sense: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=334887

Short answer: there is dulia, hyperdulia and *latria *to describe our prayers. Latria is that which is reserved only for God. Hyperdulia is the “worship” (poor English translation) of Mary. Dulia is our “worship” of the saints.

Sorry if the thread you linked has this answer already (I didn’t have time to read it ), but I have reservations about this distinction. This is not because I think it is false, but I realize I have no idea what this distinction would entail. Whenever I have seen this argument it goes something like this:
Protestant: Catholics worship Mary.
Catholic: we give the saints dulia but reserve latria for God.
Me (in my mind): but what is dulia and latria. What sorts of actions constitute one or the other?

So I guess I’ll ask the question now. What are some examples that highlight the distinction between dulia and latria?

 

[PRmerger]

So I guess I’ll ask the question now. What are some examples that highlight the distinction between dulia and latria?

Latria involves sacrifice. We offer sacrifice to God. Not to saints.