Worship vs veneration

[domestichippie]

So as I’m exploring Catholicism I’m warming to idea of Mary. Ive even been praying the rosary and find it beneficial. I’m beginjng to bring dome of these findings to my husband who is convinced Catholics worship Mary.

We have very different perspectives on this. He was raised in a Christian home and I in a spiritually confused "Christian " home and ended up a witch. So I think I have better understanding of idol worship as a former eorshiper of false gods.

But its not easy to explain.

His biggest issue is with the offering to Mary during Catholic weddings. I don’t know why this happens and cant find much. During this particular ceremony the bridal party layer flowers before the statue of Mary and knelt. Any insights?

Also what are the churches veiws on bowing versus kneeling? And my husband accepts that one shows respect for those in authority but what gives Mary or saints authority

 

[tuscany]

**Hi,

I’ll answer your husband’s question. Mary, the mother of Jesus is the ultimate role model for the Catholic bride, as she tries to imitate Mary’s perfect love for God and devotion to her family. Brides often wish to seek the guidance and blessings of The Lord, through a ceremony that requests the intercession ( to request on your behalf ) of the Blessed Virgin Mary, through prayer and the laying of flowers.

In some areas of the U.S.,this devotion will be requested to be included in the marriage ceremony and most Catholic guests will be familiar with it. In other areas of North America, this addition to the ceremony is not prevalent. Devotions to The Blessed Virgin Mary have always been present in the Catholic faith, however they are not officially included in The Rite of Marriage.

Hope this helps.

All the best and may God Bless.**

 

[Hokomai]

**Hi,

I’ll answer your husband’s question. Mary, the mother of Jesus is the ultimate role model for the Catholic bride, as she tries to imitate Mary’s perfect love for God and devotion to her family. Brides often wish to seek the guidance and blessings of The Lord, through a ceremony that requests the intercession ( to request on your behalf ) of the Blessed Virgin Mary, through prayer and the laying of flowers.

In some areas of the U.S.,this devotion will be requested to be included in the marriage ceremony and most Catholic guests will be familiar with it. In other areas of North America, this addition to the ceremony is not prevalent. Devotions to The Blessed Virgin Mary have always been present in the Catholic faith, however they are not officially included in The Rite of Marriage.

Hope this helps.

All the best and may God Bless.**

A perpetual virgin is a perfect role model for a bride?

 

[kieron123]

Well I’m not priest, or wise guy but ill tell you what I know. Catholics mainly greet mary and ask her for intecession, that is to pray for us. BUT few people could go overboard and exaggerate with Marian worship, but of course those people are few.

If your husband was raised in a “Christian” (probably referring to Protestant, then by all means he will not understand Mary, as they do not have saints, and only pray directly to god without any need for intercession, etc, etc, etc.

As for you being a witch, I myself was fairly involved in occult in the past, not witchy stuff but I was more along the lines of symbology, divinitation, mysticism, philosophy, etc, etc. I do not know your details, but I must just say worshipping mary cannot be considered or compared to a false god, because

1. She herself is not god, just a saint and the mother of god, as well as a perfect person who is now in heaven
2. If the flowers are placed at the statue, in reverence of Mary’s position in heaven then is that fine, BUT if a person blindly puts the flowers there, solely for the Statue of Mary itself, then that could be considered idol worship (which is not supposed to happen in the Catholic world, but often does as many people are not aware of and do not really know what they are doing).

The second issue normally confuses many people about idol worship etc, etc.

Bowing and kneeling are to show respect for god power in the church and the sacraments, but I am not aware of the church making this mandatory in any way. For example, many old people simply bow their heads, instead of kneeling as they are not able to. When I was injured I didnt kneel, No one really cares if you kneel or not, they just assume that you can’t do it for some reason. Hope this helped.

 

[Ubenedictus]

A perpetual virgin is a perfect role model for a bride?

ofcourse, a perpetual virgin with a son and husband. Just imagine the tension in that house, call it good tension or anything you like.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

So as I’m exploring Catholicism I’m warming to idea of Mary. Ive even been praying the rosary and find it beneficial. I’m beginjng to bring dome of these findings to my husband who is convinced Catholics worship Mary.

We have very different perspectives on this. He was raised in a Christian home and I in a spiritually confused "Christian " home and ended up a witch. So I think I have better understanding of idol worship as a former eorshiper of false gods.

But its not easy to explain.

His biggest issue is with the offering to Mary during Catholic weddings. I don’t know why this happens and cant find much. During this particular ceremony the bridal party layer flowers before the statue of Mary and knelt. Any insights?

Also what are the churches veiws on bowing versus kneeling? And my husband accepts that one shows respect for those in authority but what gives Mary or saints authority

i have never seen the flower practice maybe its because it is just in america. From what i understand it is a good practice to ask intercession in the new home.
In my culture both bowing and kneeling are used for showing respect, so i dont really find bowing or kneeling as anything apart from respect. To worship is to ascribe divinity, i find it hard to believe that anyone does that to mary or the saint.
The idea of showing respect to authority only isnt in my culture, i also show respect to those i admire and in a certain sense i expect everybody to respect me.
Ubenedictus

 

[Hokomai]

ofcourse, a perpetual virgin with a son and husband. Just imagine the tension in that house, call it good tension or anything you like.
Ubenedictus

I will go with the anything I like option!

 

[JRKH]

So as I’m exploring Catholicism I’m warming to idea of Mary. Ive even been praying the rosary and find it beneficial. I’m beginjng to bring dome of these findings to my husband who is convinced Catholics worship Mary.

We have very different perspectives on this. He was raised in a Christian home and I in a spiritually confused "Christian " home and ended up a witch. So I think I have better understanding of idol worship as a former worshiper of false gods.

But its not easy to explain.

Indeed it is not easy to explain…Be patient with him…He seems like a reasonable person. Understanding (even if not acceptance) will come.
Praying to Mary and the Saints is actually an optional practice in Catholicism. This might be good for him to know.
I do not use intercessory prayers much - generally addressing my prayers to the Father. This does not mean that I reject Mary or the Saints…It’s just the way that is most comfortable to me.

His biggest issue is with the offering to Mary during Catholic weddings. I don’t know why this happens and cant find much. During this particular ceremony the bridal party layer flowers before the statue of Mary and knelt. Any insights?

At most weddings I have been to there is a ceremony where the bride and groom give flowers to their mothers - usually a single rose to each. Are they "worshiping their mothers?? The offering of flowers to the BVM is the same thing except they are flowers to our “mother” in heaven.
Catholics consider Mary our Heavenly Mother based at least in part on the passage in the Gospel where Jesus gives Mary to John…

Also what are the churches views on bowing versus kneeling?

As far as it relates to Mary, either one is fine.

And my husband accepts that one shows respect for those in authority but what gives Mary or saints authority

Of all the questions raised here, this one is perhaps the trickiest because it depends on just what your husband means by “authority”.
The saints have “authority” in so far as God allows them. So it is not a “what” but a “who”.
This is not unlike a person who works for a company in a “supervisory” position. They only hold their authority because the leadership of the company grants it to them.
Someone once said that the BVM (and the saints) are like the moon. They shine but it is with a reflected light.

The Saints have “authority” in so far as we have respect and a devotion to a given saint and ask for their help and intercession - and/or study their lives and seek to emulate their holiness.

Hope some of this helps.

Peace
James

 

[domestichippie]

He is ok with signs of respect to living persons and asking them to pray for us.

Is there any scriptural evidence that dead saints are in fact alive and able to intercede?

Also any cases in the Bible of people kneeling or bowing to someone not actually in authority over them?

 

[JRKH]

He is ok with signs of respect to living persons and asking them to pray for us.

Is there any scriptural evidence that dead saints are in fact alive and able to intercede?

The first “evidence” I would offer is Jesus own words…God is the God of the Living not of the dead…(Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38)
Second I would point to the Transfiguration: (Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30)…Jesus is speaking with Moses and Elijah. If Jesus is speaking with them they must be alive and aware…
It follows from this that if the saints are alive in heaven as well as on earth, then they can pray for us in heaven just as they can on earth.

As an aside - one needs to be careful about being “restrictive” in requiring, “scriptural evidence” as a basis for belief and doing so separate from the teachings of the Church.
I say this because the one thing that the bible is quite clear about is that “The Church” has the authority to, “bind and loose” - “whatever”, and we are to “listen to The Church” (Mt 18:15-18). So it is wise to not only look to Scripture, but also to the Early teachings of the Church in regards to such matters.

Also any cases in the Bible of people kneeling or bowing to someone not actually in authority over them?

Let’s see - Are Angels in “authority” over people??
There are several references to this:
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.

How about officials of other lands - not your own?
In Gen. 42:6 - Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Did Joseph have “Authority” over his brothers at this point? No he did not. They did proper reverence to the official of another country with the intent to seek a favor from him…to purchase grain.

That said though I have to wonder why your husband is concerned about this sort of thing. Isn’t it “wrong thinking” to think in terms of "authority?? Whether it be among the saints here on earth or in heaven, we must be the servants of each other.
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; 28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mt 20:25-28)
So - as I look upon you with the eye of a servant i might bow to you in respect. You would do likewise. If we were to actually do this among ourselves as Christians it would look like what we see the Japanese people do to each other…Bow out of respect.
but such bowing does not stem from submission to “authority” but from “humility” and “respect”, one for the other.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[Ubenedictus]

I will go with the anything I like option!

some times i really like your post, this is an example. What do u have against the virgin mary? She lived in a family and so can be a patron for those in a family, what do u say?

 

[Hokomai]

some times i really like your post, this is an example. What do u have against the virgin mary? She lived in a family and so can be a patron for those in a family, what do u say?

Thanks for your comment. I have nothing against her. She seems to have been a loving mother and of course has been a focus of belief and discussion highlighting the importance and status of women. But as a role model for a bride, I stand by my comment that a perpetual virgin is a poor role model.

 

[sulliaa8]

He is ok with signs of respect to living persons and asking them to pray for us.

Is there any scriptural evidence that dead saints are in fact alive and able to intercede?

Here are few more example from Revelations for the Saints being alive in heaven.

From Rev 5:
I saw a scroll* in the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. It had writing on both sides and was sealed with seven seals.a 2Then I saw a mighty angel who proclaimed in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to examine it. 4I shed many tears because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to examine it. 5One of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. The lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed, enabling him to open the scroll with its seven seals*.”b This is one of the 24 elders on the thrones in heaven from chapter 4 who represent the 12 tribes and 12 apostles who are alive and speak to John

6Then I saw standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and the elders, a Lamb* that seemed to have been slain. He had seven horns and seven eyes; these are the [seven] spirits of God sent out into the whole world.c 7He came and received the scroll from the right hand of the one who sat on the throne. 8When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. The elders hold up/ present the prayers of the faithful
Then:
I looked again and heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number* He sees that heaven is full and they worship and offer praise

Last in Rev 6:10
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar* the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God. 10They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master,* before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” 11Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been. While not inceeding here they clearly do pray for justice for those who suffer for their faith

Also, my wife and I were married in the church after 11 years (recent converts), with a full mass this year. We did have a statue of Mary and we placed flowers before her prior to the ceremony. The gesture is just out of honor to her place in heaven as as our spiritual mother. We also each had a candle that we lit toward the end of the ceremony then used to light a single candle before the statue which was a way of asking for her blessing and prayers for a blessed union. We did not think Mary was somehow present in that statue it was just a visual reference for the ceremony.

 

[EmeraldWings]

So as I’m exploring Catholicism I’m warming to idea of Mary. Ive even been praying the rosary and find it beneficial. I’m beginjng to bring dome of these findings to my husband who is convinced Catholics worship Mary.

We have very different perspectives on this. He was raised in a Christian home and I in a spiritually confused "Christian " home and ended up a witch. So I think I have better understanding of idol worship as a former eorshiper of false gods.

But its not easy to explain.

His biggest issue is with the offering to Mary during Catholic weddings. I don’t know why this happens and cant find much. During this particular ceremony the bridal party layer flowers before the statue of Mary and knelt. Any insights?

Also what are the churches veiws on bowing versus kneeling? And my husband accepts that one shows respect for those in authority but what gives Mary or saints authority

the first thing i want to point out is the title - “worship vs. veneration”, veneration is worship, but it is only one type of worship,
but to explain before you get the wrong idea, worship itself is not what we owe to God alone, what we owe to God alone is adoration, which is another type or worship,
the word worship is a contraction of “worth-ship”, it means to acknowledge someones worth, and we can do this with absolutely anyone, anyone you love and express your love in some way or another, you are acknowledging their worth,
and this is just what you can learn from looking up the definition of the word itself, so that’s easy enough,

but getting into it deeper, i will try and explain the difference between adoration and veneration
veneration is the honor we give to the saints who, by their intercession and example, help us to grow in virtue, it does not take away from the glory given to God because whatever good the saints possess is a gift from Gods bounty, they are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of His Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Ghost,

adoration is where we recognize God as the only one worthy of supreme honor because He is infinitely perfect and has supreme dominion over humans and the right to our total dependence,
so basically, He alone is recognized and acknowledged for all that we have and all that we are,
He also is the only one who we may give sacrifice to, and there are certain acts of the mind and will which we give to God alone that are expressed in certain appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

basically, you cross over from veneration to adoration when you give all glory and honor to someone other then God, or with the attitude that they could answer your requests apart from God.

and remember, God says not to have any gods before Him, and not to bow before idols, He does not say we cannot worship anyone but Him, but that we cannot make a God of anyone or anything,
the words you want to understand better here are “idol” and “idolatry”, an idol is “Any creature that is given divine honors”, you give someone or something divine honors when you treat them as an end in themselves, and with no reference to God.
so idolatry is not merely worship, but specifically the giving of divine honors to anyone or anything but God.

it is good for us to have interaction with the saints(in the only way we can really) because God made us to be social creatures, when we help eachother and love eachother, that is a very good thing, and it does not stop when we die, on the contrary, it becomes more profound after death, more perfect,
when we ask the saints to intercede for us, we are also saying “you are better then me, you are perfect and without sin, whereas i am a sinner, you are Gods friend, whereas i am His enemy”
God is more willing to grant a request from His friends in heaven, because they are much more pleasing to Him, and so that is why it is so much better if we ask for their help.
and when we have a statue of a saint, that is also good, because it is giving them honor(which is what veneration is),
just as we have statues of war hero’s all over the place, or some of the presidents, or other important people in history,
so we Catholics likewise have statues of our hero’s, the ones we consider great and worthy of acknowledgment, the ones worth remembering and whose example is worth taking after.

well…i’ve already written quite a bit, so i think i should end it there, but i have something that will help explain all this much better here - z13.invisionfree.com/DominamStellaMaris/index.php?showtopic=31
have your husband read that, or if he wont read it on the computer, you can buy it here - tanbooks.benedictpress.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/102

hope that helps, take care.

 

[sulliaa8]

Thanks for your comment. I have nothing against her. She seems to have been a loving mother and of course has been a focus of belief and discussion highlighting the importance and status of women. But as a role model for a bride, I stand by my comment that a perpetual virgin is a poor role model.

I would argue that fidelity, obedience (not in a negative sense), and unconditional love are not poor examples to follow. However, I assume your focus on her perpetual virginity is just a bit of humor regarding the conjugal act, and would say in that case, the priest did not do a very good job explaining what a Catholic marriage entails.

 

[domestichippie]

I think his hang up is that it makes sense to him to kneel earthly authorities when its respectful but he thinks outside of that is worship.also without such authority he doesn’t see why you’d venerate Mary.

Thank you for the references to angels.Wespecifically talked aboutwhetheror not angels corrected people when they did this.

As to looking to scripture that is going to be the best place to start withhim

 

[domestichippie]

I use that title since that is the wording I see used most often in this topic by Catholics

the first thing i want to point out is the title - “worship vs. veneration”, veneration is worship, but it is only one type of worship,
but to explain before you get the wrong idea, worship itself is not what we owe to God alone, what we owe to God alone is adoration, which is another type or worship,
the word worship is a contraction of “worth-ship”, it means to acknowledge someones worth, and we can do this with absolutely anyone, anyone you love and express your love in some way or another, you are acknowledging their worth,
and this is just what you can learn from looking up the definition of the word itself, so that’s easy enough,

but getting into it deeper, i will try and explain the difference between adoration and veneration
veneration is the honor we give to the saints who, by their intercession and example, help us to grow in virtue, it does not take away from the glory given to God because whatever good the saints possess is a gift from Gods bounty, they are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of His Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Ghost,

adoration is where we recognize God as the only one worthy of supreme honor because He is infinitely perfect and has supreme dominion over humans and the right to our total dependence,
so basically, He alone is recognized and acknowledged for all that we have and all that we are,
He also is the only one who we may give sacrifice to, and there are certain acts of the mind and will which we give to God alone that are expressed in certain appropriate prayers, postures of praise, and acts of reverence and sacrifice.

basically, you cross over from veneration to adoration when you give all glory and honor to someone other then God, or with the attitude that they could answer your requests apart from God.

and remember, God says not to have any gods before Him, and not to bow before idols, He does not say we cannot worship anyone but Him, but that we cannot make a God of anyone or anything,
the words you want to understand better here are “idol” and “idolatry”, an idol is “Any creature that is given divine honors”, you give someone or something divine honors when you treat them as an end in themselves, and with no reference to God.
so idolatry is not merely worship, but specifically the giving of divine honors to anyone or anything but God.

it is good for us to have interaction with the saints(in the only way we can really) because God made us to be social creatures, when we help eachother and love eachother, that is a very good thing, and it does not stop when we die, on the contrary, it becomes more profound after death, more perfect,
when we ask the saints to intercede for us, we are also saying “you are better then me, you are perfect and without sin, whereas i am a sinner, you are Gods friend, whereas i am His enemy”
God is more willing to grant a request from His friends in heaven, because they are much more pleasing to Him, and so that is why it is so much better if we ask for their help.
and when we have a statue of a saint, that is also good, because it is giving them honor(which is what veneration is),
just as we have statues of war hero’s all over the place, or some of the presidents, or other important people in history,
so we Catholics likewise have statues of our hero’s, the ones we consider great and worthy of acknowledgment, the ones worth remembering and whose example is worth taking after.

well…i’ve already written quite a bit, so i think i should end it there, but i have something that will help explain all this much better here - z13.invisionfree.com/DominamStellaMaris/index.php?showtopic=31
have your husband read that, or if he wont read it on the computer, you can buy it here - tanbooks.benedictpress.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/102

hope that helps, take care.

 

[JRKH]

I think his hang up is that it makes sense to him to kneel earthly authorities when its respectful but he thinks outside of that is worship.also without such authority he doesn’t see why you’d venerate Mary.

I can speak only for myself. I venerate Mary because she is my spiritual Mother. When I say “venerate” I mean respect and Love - not worship.
So - does he think that he could develop a respect and a love for the woman who bore the savior, who suckled Him and raised Him and who’s last recorded words in Scripture are “Do whatever He tells you”? Can he respect and love she who sat at the foot of the cross and watched her Son, our savior, die for our sins?
Maybe if he gets to know her a little better as a woman, wife, mother, he’ll grow to understand a bit more why we hold her in such high regard.

Thank you for the references to angels.We specifically talked about whether or not angels corrected people when they did this.

You are welcome.

As to looking to scripture that is going to be the best place to start with him

Understood. But - it is important to recognize that Scripture points to “Church” as authoritative. It points to a single, unified, visible and authoritative body. So the natural growth of study should be from scripture out into the writings and teachings of the Church.

I guess that this is a sticking point for me. Those who want to restrict teaching to Scripture tend to ignore what Scripture says about Church structure. They want to hold to Sola Scriptura, but then want to ignore the many references in the NT pointing quite clearly toward a unified and visible and authoritative Church.
Guess I’ve been in too many discussions where each side sits behind their barricade and shoots bible quotes at each other with no way to resolve the matter.
So - I tend to eventually challenge them on “biblical” description of authority as recorded in the NT…The model called fro IN Scripture is clearly the Catholic/EO councilior and authoritative model - not the “invisible church” model…
The protestant is more than willing to argue many points of doctrine and insist on “bible references” but then falls silent on the matter of the matter of what Scripture tells us about Church structure and authority…

Sorry - I’m rambling and ranting a bit…I’ll shut up now…

Peace
James

 

[fred_conty]

So as I’m exploring Catholicism I’m warming to idea of Mary. Ive even been praying the rosary and find it beneficial. I’m beginjng to bring dome of these findings to my husband who is convinced Catholics worship Mary.

We have very different perspectives on this. He was raised in a Christian home and I in a spiritually confused "Christian " home and ended up a witch. So I think I have better understanding of idol worship as a former eorshiper of false gods.

But its not easy to explain.

His biggest issue is with the offering to Mary during Catholic weddings. I don’t know why this happens and cant find much. During this particular ceremony the bridal party layer flowers before the statue of Mary and knelt. Any insights?

Also what are the churches veiws on bowing versus kneeling? And my husband accepts that one shows respect for those in authority but what gives Mary or saints authority

Authority is established by their being one with God because of their holiness.

“…the heartfelt prayer of a good man works very powerfully.” James 4;16-17
“…dear to him is the prayer of honest men.” Proverbs 15:8
“…but he listens to the prayers of the virtuous.” Proverbs 15:29

Now who is more good, honest, virtuous, than the saints praying for us.
Especially Holy Mary being at the top of the list of saints as the Mother of God.

Just something to think about.

 

[fred_conty]

A perpetual virgin is a perfect role model for a bride?

Virgin or virgins means Mary was holy in a special way by consecrating herself, body and soul, to God alone. Thus she remained a virgin before, during and after her birth to our saviour.

It was in her mind to fully devote and to give herself completely to God. So this was a special vow to give to God her whole self. What could be more pleasing to God than this total dedication of herself and to be faithful to her special calling.

This is why, virgin of virgins, is a model for every woman to imitate, her complete dedication of all that she is to her saviour as Mary did. Mary had a higher call and vocation to be a mother and virgin. But all mothers and wives are called to the same dedication in the vocation to which God called them to be faithful to their special calling and to be spiritually virginal in their holy vows.

Just a thought.