Would being evil lead me to a joyful life of faith?

[Neoplatonist]

I’ve been running this experiment for quite some time, leading a good and virtuous life, embracing the low pay of a worker for the Church, etc., and the results have been a weak faith and a mind/life filled with unfulfilled hope that I might receive help and consolation from God, the saints, the angels.

Perhaps I should reverse the electrical charge and see if that has any better effect—it seems to me from the stories of the saints that it is by being wealthy and living a life of hedonistic indulgence that I am more likely to have God or his angels show up to re-direct me. Either I’m unhappy, as now, but with more money in the bank to cover my retirement and my kid’s college tuition OR I have a moving religious experience (a la St. Paul, St. Francis of Assisi, or any of the many, many others), change my ways, and go on to a life of faith and fulfillment.

Be honest with yourselves: would you rather be St. Francis with the vision of the Seraphim or Mother Teresa of Calcutta wandering in the desert of faith (as described in her memoirs)?

Now, of course, there have been loads of rich jerks that didn’t receive a powerful religious experience to set them on the path of a powerful faith, but the same is true for loads of poor, good-hearted people as well. My attempts to penetrate that argument have been met with “God’s ways are a mystery,” and faith is a free gift from God, so my choice to be rich or poor won’t/can’t change his mind, so to speak, regarding whether or not he reaches out to me. The best shot according to the Bible seems to be “leaving the 99 to go after the 1 stray sheep.”

What do you think?

 

[Viewer]

I think God would see through this as an attempt to demand his attention, and I can’t help but understand if he’d feel a bit miffed about a mortal trying to play him like that.

On that logic I doubt he would he would directly address you, but even if he did well…There is nothing to guarantee his personal attention direct towards an evil doer would be…How to put it? Of a good nature.

I’d be wary of putting the Lord to the test, sounds awfully like waving a red flag at a bull to me

 

[Neoplatonist]

I think God would see through this as an attempt to demand his attention, and I can’t help but understand if he’d feel a bit miffed about a mortal trying to play him like that.

On that logic I doubt he would he would directly address you, but even if he did well…There is nothing to guarantee his personal attention direct towards an evil doer would be…How to put it? Of a good nature.

I’d be wary of putting the Lord to the test, sounds awfully like waving a red flag at a bull to me

I’m not suggesting I just “pretend” to give myself over to a life of materialism-God would know my heart had not really strayed from the fold.

I also think you’re imagining I would not gladly trade a rebuke or some worldly suffering in exchange for a strong faith, if that were how things turned out. Seems to go hand-in-hand with powerful religious experiences for saints down through history.

 

[pianistclare]

My 2 cents is this:
From this and your last thread, you seem to desperately need proofs. You need to know that God hears you. You need tangible stuff to bolster your faith.
The more you demand of God, I fear the more silent He will remain.
God loves us, but cannot be manipulated by anyone.
I think you are probably greatly blessed, but not in ways that you think are particularly exemplary.
You asked, so my opinion is " work on your prayer life and accept your life as the saints did, in humility."
Life is not an experiment, my friend. You only get one shot.
Tell God how much you love Him. That would be a better place to begin.
You say you work for the church.
Your priest is the place for advice.
Many prayers for you,
and God’s peace to you,
pianist

 

[Neoplatonist]

Thanks, PC,

I don’t “need” proofs, if I were to receive the gift of strong faith without them, that would be well and good. There is an interesting pattern here on the forum, though, in which people seem to think you can choose to have more faith. No. It is a gift. I don’t have it, I wish I did, I pray for it constantly. In the meantime, I work to come to a deeper understanding by reflection and dialogue with other people who share my love of the Church.

I “demand” nothing of God; sorry if I somehow sounded that way. Are we not to ask him for help and consolation and for strength?

As for talking to priests? Sadly they have no time. I have tried. Repeatedly. If there is a more disconcerting sign of the state of the Church in recent days, I am hard-pressed to think of it.

Keep the ideas coming, though. Love how people’s different perspectives on the forum push me in new directions.

p.s. The “experiment” metaphor came after talking with a bishop and a theologian about people’s declining faith in the modern world.

p.p.s. If I could trust God and love him in spite of my doubts, I would already have faith and wouldn’t be praying for stronger faith (or trying to understand when those prayers aren’t answered).

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks, PC,

I don’t “need” proofs, if I were to receive the gift of strong faith without them, that would be well and good. There is an interesting pattern here on the forum, though, in which people seem to think you can choose to have more faith. No. It is a gift. I don’t have it, I wish I did, I pray for it constantly. In the meantime, I work to come to a deeper understanding by reflection and dialogue with other people who share my love of the Church.

I “demand” nothing of God; sorry if I somehow sounded that way. Are we not to ask him for help and consolation and for strength?

As for talking to priests? Sadly they have no time. I have tried. Repeatedly. If there is a more disconcerting sign of the state of the Church in recent days, I am hard-pressed to think of it.

Keep the ideas coming, though. Love how people’s different perspectives on the forum push me in new directions.

p.s. The “experiment” metaphor came after talking with a bishop and a theologian about people’s declining faith in the modern world.

p.p.s. If I could trust God and love him in spite of my doubts, I would already have faith and wouldn’t be praying for stronger faith (or trying to understand when those prayers aren’t answered).

Thank you for your detailed response.
but I’ll counter with this : If faith were not a choice, why such a big deal about free will?
If we can choose evil or to walk away from God, could we not also choose to draw near to Him? God does not ever choose to turn His back on us. Even until our last breath He wishes for our love and repentance, and accepts it! That was the point of my “one shot at life” response.
I get what you’re saying…but somehow I think you are looking for something really tangible. I can’t predict what that tangible thing would be in your case. I’ve had a visit from a Saint (ok, now you think I’m nuts) but it really was a big thing. It did not come as a way to talk me into God’s providence, but as an answer to a specific prayer. And it was a sign.
Are you looking for a sign?
Your prayers are answered, BTW…often the answer is no. But I know you’ve heard this before and don’t particularly buy it.

Dear one, listen carefully:
if you can’t find a priest to talk to you LOOK ELSEWHERE. There are plenty of good priests that will make time for you and counsel you. My sister was in a horrible marriage in the 50’s…yeah, she’s a lot older than me. Anyway…she went to **13 different priests **before she met one who said “leave tonight. God does not want you suffer this way. I know a family that will take you in, and I will help you with an annulment.”
Poor girl.
If there is a retreat center near you there may be a Spiritual Director that would work with you. Keep looking. Don’t give up. You’ll be better off with a face to face conversation in the long run. All of us like to think we are helpful…maybe sometimes we are. Maybe not though. It might be time to seek out a good and holy priest.
Best,
pianist

 

[fhansen]

I’ve been running this experiment for quite some time, leading a good and virtuous life, embracing the low pay of a worker for the Church, etc., and the results have been a weak faith and a mind/life filled with unfulfilled hope that I might receive help and consolation from God, the saints, the angels.

Perhaps I should reverse the electrical charge and see if that has any better effect—it seems to me from the stories of the saints that it is by being wealthy and living a life of hedonistic indulgence that I am more likely to have God or his angels show up to re-direct me. Either I’m unhappy, as now, but with more money in the bank to cover my retirement and my kid’s college tuition OR I have a moving religious experience (a la St. Paul, St. Francis of Assisi, or any of the many, many others), change my ways, and go on to a life of faith and fulfillment.

Be honest with yourselves: would you rather be St. Francis with the vision of the Seraphim or Mother Teresa of Calcutta wandering in the desert of faith (as described in her memoirs)?

Now, of course, there have been loads of rich jerks that didn’t receive a powerful religious experience to set them on the path of a powerful faith, but the same is true for loads of poor, good-hearted people as well. My attempts to penetrate that argument have been met with “God’s ways are a mystery,” and faith is a free gift from God, so my choice to be rich or poor won’t/can’t change his mind, so to speak, regarding whether or not he reaches out to me. The best shot according to the Bible seems to be “leaving the 99 to go after the 1 stray sheep.”

What do you think?

Mother Teresa apparently had what would qualify as a mystical experience which had to sustain her for 40 or so years. Either way, these experiences aren’t necessarily an “unmixed blessing”, even when frequently experienced. We still have to struggle through this life, with all it’s challenges, trying to do the right thing. I bet it’s too late for you anyway; riches will never quite satisfy either. Your focus is on higher things, like it or not.

 

[david_patrick]

hi,(here i am not trying to be persuasive-but look at my own life in answer)perhaps, your inquiry makes for more-a second and third and forth development-
not to say that i am any example-but i wish the road to holiness or path to holiness-on the calandar at any rate-that i could have chosen a best (easier)path; but a holy spirit that looks at the calandar and events has and had chosen a different path to holiness-for my own-very personalized-…combined in inquiries third and forth inquiries, as personal faith-being shocking and surprising…for instance-how do i pray? how do i form an intention? do i request things? or what about that word -‘request?’ my personal answer begins by placing myself in teh situation of poor saint peter-or mary magdeline, or other man/women of the gospel-then make directly from the gospel, mixed with my own sinful situation-to next approach heaven=this rounds and forms the question to God-a natural flow…well a happy flow/that wonderful exchange of my soul with heaven…or persons of the trinity…even the ending to one hail mary-reaches some conclusion-(as she prays with me); for example, with a very veiled inquiry is mother mary corruptable flesh-as we spend quite a bit of time together-that Mother Mary is not ‘dead’-not the approach like that of a cemetary in a dream or night mare-she has a special body-then for me…reaching the end of one hail mary-i might know she is holy while i am not=so inquiries, path, of holiness,(God’s choice)-; surprises ; -my brokeness due to doing stupid things-repression/depression, situations of traps for the sinner-and worry of tomorrow’s sins; these form a faith-perhaps strange-of waiting-because -my wrist watch said that i finished praying, even so -i am still a mess with a feeling of great risk-but keeping an on going trust in God anyway-as if i climbed a mountain-i could not remove by shovel of a strong faith-a weak faith let me climb it-then lost my control and grasp to fall-from taht Mt Everest-i wait and call it quiet faith-maybe that is a path to holiness-can you see -why i would have chosen a more pleasant path-but it was not up to me maybe in the end-i might live with joy and die in joy)-thx patrick

 

[Pacem6891]

I’ve been running this experiment for quite some time, leading a good and virtuous life, embracing the low pay of a worker for the Church, etc., and the results have been a weak faith and a mind/life filled with unfulfilled hope that I might receive help and consolation from God, the saints, the angels.

Perhaps I should reverse the electrical charge and see if that has any better effect—it seems to me from the stories of the saints that it is by being wealthy and living a life of hedonistic indulgence that I am more likely to have God or his angels show up to re-direct me. Either I’m unhappy, as now, but with more money in the bank to cover my retirement and my kid’s college tuition OR I have a moving religious experience (a la St. Paul, St. Francis of Assisi, or any of the many, many others), change my ways, and go on to a life of faith and fulfillment.

Be honest with yourselves: would you rather be St. Francis with the vision of the Seraphim or Mother Teresa of Calcutta wandering in the desert of faith (as described in her memoirs)?

Now, of course, there have been loads of rich jerks that didn’t receive a powerful religious experience to set them on the path of a powerful faith, but the same is true for loads of poor, good-hearted people as well. My attempts to penetrate that argument have been met with “God’s ways are a mystery,” and faith is a free gift from God, so my choice to be rich or poor won’t/can’t change his mind, so to speak, regarding whether or not he reaches out to me. The best shot according to the Bible seems to be “leaving the 99 to go after the 1 stray sheep.”

What do you think?

Neoplatonist,

After reading your question, I actually registered here on Catholic Answers to offer you a suggestion that you might consider.

Have you read any of the works of the Carmelite saints (St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Therese of Lisieux), specifically addressing the topic of spiritual dryness? All three of them experienced it. Bl. Teresa of Calcutta’s experience with it is also documented, as you pointed out. Please don’t despair if you yourself are experiencing it. You’re in good company with MANY holy men and women. Take a little time to check out Dark Night of the Soul by St John of the Cross, or the autobiographies of St Teresa of Avila and St Therese of Lisieux. They know exactly what you seem to be going through.

I would agree with you–most of us would definitely want to be St Francis with the vision of the Seraphim! But it’s not about what we want. It’s about what the Father wants, and He always, always knows what we need, and always, always gives good gifts to His children. We may not see it, or understand it at all now. That’s ok. The only thing God asks of us is to keep trusting, keep moving forward, keep communing with Him, and keep doing His Will. That is what all the saints did–that’s why they’re saints.

Please don’t do what you say you’re considering to do. You’ll never attain holiness through hedonistic indulgence–or any other sin, for that matter. That just doesn’t make sense. You’re probably more than aware of that, and you may be just speaking out of (understandable) frustration. It’s ok not to understand, but don’t ever despair. The Lord loves you, and He’s not going to give you a stone when what you need is bread. Trust Him.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

Leading an evil life will get you no where, except possibly to hell. Evil does not lead to sanctity, only to misery.
Look at all the psychiatrists that deal daily with self deluded people who lead dissolute lives!
They are miserable because their lifestyles largely involves imorality. Many are cured when they discover how to live moral and upright lives.
So, please don’t kid yourself, and heed the well meaning respondants to this thread. There is much wisdom in what they write.
And paraphrasing what I said before, do not delude yourself!!!

 

[pianistclare]

It’s funny…I like what PACEM said!

As I was lying awake thinking about your post, I thought: Hey! Invite him to explore St. Therese of Lisieux. wow! It appears all the Theresa’s want to help you.

Seems like a sign to me…there were cool women.

St. Therese of Liseaux constantly desired the "small " way to faith. She wanted to do little things. She wanted to be a “small deal” to the Lord. In the small things, she found Him and was at peace.

I highly recommend her as a friend for you.
Read up on her life. Pray some of her prayers.
She fell asleep in Mass for heaven’s sake! She’s the real deal.

But she has inspired millions with her “Little Way”.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Some interesting thoughts, guys. A couple of points to consider, though:

1.It’s only a ‘desert’ if there was something else before. Unlike Teresa of C., et al, there was no powerful, moving experience that came before. It’s all been wishing and praying for faith (and for signs or helps to build faith). At some point, if you don’t even get a little kiss, you stop thinking the girl loves you and you’re bound to stop spending money to take her out all the time. (Not yet, but I’m running out of steam.)

2.“Don’t be a hedonist because you’ll end up miserable.” This misses the point, I’m miserable now. Spiritually, I mean. My life is fine. Family, career, etc., all outwardly successful. If I’m going to feel spiritually empty and alone either way, at least I could drive a nicer car. Right? I don’t have to become evil evil, like pillage and burning or some college-sophomore Nietzschean.

1. I guess my other option would be just walk up and down the road to Damascus all the time.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Neoplatonist,

After reading your question, I actually registered here on Catholic Answers to offer you a suggestion that you might consider.

That was pretty awesome. I’ll admit I find it hard to read about the Saints, because it just highlights how they had these amazing moments of faith and now are struggling. I’ll admit that this usually makes me feel like shaking them, or giving them one of those good old-movie slaps that calms someone down when they’re freaking out.

Aside from that, I don’t see how me acting like a saint will make any difference. I can’t deserve faith. I can’t earn faith. I can’t choose faith. It’s a gift. I know of more peasants and soldiers who have been granted signs and wonders to strengthen their faith than I do of priests and schoolteachers. Heck, I know of more random people in a crowd who have witnessed miracles. In fact, the people who killed Christ even saw more miracles and signs than all the Catholics I have ever met put together. Sorry, tangent.

Back to my initial point: it really was awesome that you were moved to sign up to reply. That will stay with me.

 

[david_patrick]

hi,
very interesting post-yours; as the responses continue to be interesting;
on spiritual topic-is the book by Fulton Sheen, Life of Christ; i thought this to have unusual lively details to those around Jesus; not out dated at all-and uncommon literature compared to today’s literature; a writer’s theme combines real life gospel-details of ‘character’ combining all accounts of the gospels into one vivid, lucid, flowing account; So, as any modern movie, Sheen explains the gospel, as interesting literary ingredients- man’s conflict with nature, man’s conflict with other men, men’s conflict with self…Sheen illustrates an interpretation of the gospel of souls growing in roots of Existentialism.
as a reader-i began to realize a bench mark/before pentecost and after pentecost- that the followers of jesus were not quite ‘with it’ before pentecost-the coming of the Holy spirit- means after the bench mark/ The life of christ illustrates saints to be very human and struggling in vivid imagery-Sheen shows the human side of the followers (of jesus) especially of personality…
In regards to 'experiment:'american society changes quickly-an americanism is felt as exponentially in our rapidly changing society, so unfamiliar are new laws, morals, that challenge conscience…Americanism seems to promote a lacking of any momentum of purpose…if that is true, then my challenge, and every one’s continuing story-is that of "man’s conflict/struggle with in self…(st Therese-story of a soul-expresses inward struggle)- a struggle within self can end in a spiritual joy/that action of mercy-redemption after the bench mark; a new focus…man’s conflict/struggle with american society…answers to what extent a catholic may be part of society, yet find a purpose in living apart from it…

 

[Neoplatonist]

Actually, it seems nothing would lead me to a life of faith. God either gives me the gift or not, completely independent of my efforts, desert, or desires.

What choice do I have then in making life decisions except for:

a) random whims and flips of the coin or

b) whatever society values the most. I can’t earn God’s love, but I can certainly win the love of the masses. It may be fleeting, but while it lasts I can sure find signs that it’s there. Better to feel loved temporarily and superficially than not feel loved at all.

(Yes, you can tell me God and the angels love me all you want. You can point me to the Bible passages. You can even tell me how I should feel loved. That’s not feeling it. People saying ‘hug’ and me reading about hugs are not feeling hugs.)

 

[JamesATyler]

Having a personal encounter with God is a great reward. Maybe even the greatest. He would know. I am sure he has noticed that you’d consider doing evil to meet him. I would advise you to reject that idea. Murder has been committed in that same spirit. Think of Cain, who killed his brother out of jealousy. Where else can that spirit lead you? If you have not had the blessing you desire for your efforts, are you not susceptible to jealousy toward those around you who have received this blessing?

Look to Able for your example. Always give God your best. Accept the favor he gives you. If you have to stand alone without love then stand alone in an impressive way. Overcome these temptations toward evil and become full of conviction to do the right things, for God can stand alone without being loved and never waver from truth and goodness. Be like him. Keep trying to win his favor by doing good things. You have faith already.

 

[ynotzap]

I’ve been running this experiment for quite some time, leading a good and virtuous life, embracing the low pay of a worker for the Church, etc., and the results have been a weak faith and a mind/life filled with unfulfilled hope that I might receive help and consolation from God, the saints, the angels.

Perhaps I should reverse the electrical charge and see if that has any better effect—it seems to me from the stories of the saints that it is by being wealthy and living a life of hedonistic indulgence that I am more likely to have God or his angels show up to re-direct me. Either I’m unhappy, as now, but with more money in the bank to cover my retirement and my kid’s college tuition OR I have a moving religious experience (a la St. Paul, St. Francis of Assisi, or any of the many, many others), change my ways, and go on to a life of faith and fulfillment.

Be honest with yourselves: would you rather be St. Francis with the vision of the Seraphim or Mother Teresa of Calcutta wandering in the desert of faith (as described in her memoirs)?

Now, of course, there have been loads of rich jerks that didn’t receive a powerful religious experience to set them on the path of a powerful faith, but the same is true for loads of poor, good-hearted people as well. My attempts to penetrate that argument have been met with “God’s ways are a mystery,” and faith is a free gift from God, so my choice to be rich or poor won’t/can’t change his mind, so to speak, regarding whether or not he reaches out to me. The best shot according to the Bible seems to be “leaving the 99 to go after the 1 stray sheep.”

What do you think?

Faith is a gift, only through Jesus Christ, He is the way, the truth, and the light. We can not please God without Faith. Jesus must be first and last in our lives. there are many Christians who have been indoctrinated, but not converted. This conversion can only come by an “encounter with Jesus” Many are not "evangelized–the good news that Jesus is Lord and Redeemer . Many Popes had emphasized this truth. I will quote one: The encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Neverthe less this is always insufficient because THE FINEST WITNESS WILL PROVE INEFFECTIVE if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the LORD JESUS CHRIST BY WORD. There is no evangelization if the name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of God are not proclaimed. That means that all our witnessing, advice, and experience can only point to Jesus. One has to encounter Him to receive the Faith. If our faith is weak we need to encounter Him again. We present ourselves before Him in humble repentance and petition, in sincerity and we ask Him to enter more fully into our lives. Put what little faith we think we have in Christ ( You might say Lord I believe, help me in my lack off belief. Jesus’ heart is always open with love ready to accept all who sincerely turn to Him. This is what He came for, to redeem us in love. Once we experience His personal love for us nobody will separate us from Him. The quote was from Pope Paul VI. May Jesus bless you abundantly

 

[Neoplatonist]

Faith is a gift, only through Jesus Christ, He is the way, the truth, and the light. We can not please God without Faith. Jesus must be first and last in our lives. there are many Christians who have been indoctrinated, but not converted. This conversion can only come by an “encounter with Jesus” Many are not "evangelized–the good news that Jesus is Lord and Redeemer . Many Popes had emphasized this truth. I will quote one: The encounter will not take place unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Neverthe less this is always insufficient because THE FINEST WITNESS WILL PROVE INEFFECTIVE if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the LORD JESUS CHRIST BY WORD. There is no evangelization if the name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of God are not proclaimed. That means that all our witnessing, advice, and experience can only point to Jesus. One has to encounter Him to receive the Faith. If our faith is weak we need to encounter Him again. We present ourselves before Him in humble repentance and petition, in sincerity and we ask Him to enter more fully into our lives. Put what little faith we think we have in Christ ( You might say Lord I believe, help me in my lack off belief. Jesus’ heart is always open with love ready to accept all who sincerely turn to Him. This is what He came for, to redeem us in love. Once we experience His personal love for us nobody will separate us from Him. The quote was from Pope Paul VI. May Jesus bless you abundantly

Point taken. I will stop being frustrated that God and my guardian angels have not appeared or spoken explicitly and directly to me and switch instead to being frustrated that Jesus has not come to me in voice or vision.

 

[fhansen]

Point taken. I will stop being frustrated that God and my guardian angels have not appeared or spoken explicitly and directly to me and switch instead to being frustrated that Jesus has not come to me in voice or vision.

Challenge yourself to recognize and value the faith you already have-while always seeking more- you might have more than you think.I like a comment from an unknown source: "Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one’s looking. The Master’s gone away, for all practical purposes, on a trip, and for a reason: to see how we’ll be acting when He returns. If He drops in to visit now and then, so be it; He’s more likely to do that when people aren’t expecting or demanding it, tho. Meanwhile the right thing is, well, the right thing, regardless of Who’s looking.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Challenge yourself to recognize and value the faith you already have-while always seeking more- you might have more than you think.I like a comment from an unknown source: "Integrity is to do the right thing even when no one’s looking. The Master’s gone away, for all practical purposes, on a trip, and for a reason: to see how we’ll be acting when He returns. If He drops in to visit now and then, so be it; He’s more likely to do that when people aren’t expecting or demanding it, tho. Meanwhile the right thing is, well, the right thing, regardless of Who’s looking.

I have. Are we not allowed to grow tired?