Would being evil lead me to a joyful life of faith?

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Yes we are allowed to grow tired. That’s the time to role with the waves and drift, and there is a time to swim When we are tired we don’t make critical decisions, we are not all there. Jesus may not come to you in voice or vision, then He may, but what He will do is come to you in your greatest need. He is already there, and always has been. Your very life is proof of it. Nobody guarantees us that we will live tomorrow All we really have is the present,and thats passing moment by moment. Jesus is already coming to you in the christian love that is shown to you by the members of this forum. What do you think motivates them, if it isn’t the love of Christ, Christ in them! JESUS resides in the souls of those that love Him, they share in His sacrifices as well in His peace and love and even joy. Faith is believing in what we don’t see, the reward of Faith is seeing what we believe. (St.Augustine) and it is impossible to please God without it. We pray that your faith is increased and your mind is at peace. Jesus bless you with His Spirit.
 
ynotzap said:
Yes we are allowed to grow tired. That’s the time to role with the waves and drift, and there is a time to swim When we are tired we don’t make critical decisions, we are not all there. Jesus may not come to you in voice or vision, then He may, but what He will do is come to you in your greatest need. He is already there, and always has been. Your very life is proof of it. Nobody guarantees us that we will live tomorrow All we really have is the present,and thats passing moment by moment. Jesus is already coming to you in the christian love that is shown to you by the members of this forum. What do you think motivates them, if it isn’t the love of Christ, Christ in them! JESUS resides in the souls of those that love Him, they share in His sacrifices as well in His peace and love and even joy. Faith is believing in what we don’t see, the reward of Faith is seeing what we believe. (St.Augustine) and it is impossible to please God without it. We pray that your faith is increased and your mind is at peace. Jesus bless you with His Spirit.
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Interesting; a few thoughts:

If being alive means Christ is here, then is he there in the souls of those who have turned away from him? (If so, that would make free will a strange claim.)

That other people act with compassion because they feel like Christ has loved them does not entail that he loves me or is present to me. I share love, in part, because my mother loved me - doesn’t entail that my mom loves you.

Easy for Augustine to say when his life was turned at a critical moment by a mysterious event while he reflected in his garden.

If faith is seeing what we believe, and I don’t see it, then I must not believe it. Then why does it frustrate me in a way that not seeing unicorns does not? How would this passage apply to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus? He clearly saw something he had not believed.
 
It is the nature of tired that I cannot keep swimming upstream. The currents of modern life pull too hard. I cannot ‘decide’ to be un-tired.
 
Neoplatonist said:
Interesting; a few thoughts:

If being alive means Christ is here, then is he there in the souls of those who have turned away from him? (If so, that would make free will a strange claim.)

That other people act with compassion because they feel like Christ has loved them does not entail that he loves me or is present to me. I share love, in part, because my mother loved me - doesn’t entail that my mom loves you.

Easy for Augustine to say when his life was turned at a critical moment by a mysterious event while he reflected in his garden.

If faith is seeing what we believe, and I don’t see it, then I must not believe it. Then why does it frustrate me in a way that not seeing unicorns does not? How would this passage apply to Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus? He clearly saw something he had not believed.
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Yes but He is not resurrected in their spiritual lives. He is the one who gave them a soul made to His image, a spiritual one. It has nothing to do with free will in accepting Him. Your mother co-operated with God to bring you into this world,it is God who gave you life, some children are born dead. His love for you brought you into existence in order so that you can share His life, in Heaven.

St. Augustine late in life, after his mother prayed 28-32 years was converted He led a sinful life, a life of lustful pleasure, It was very hard for him to give up his ways, but by the grace of God he became a holy and great teacher in the Church and led many to Christ. ST. Paul persecuted Christians even condoned the killing of St.Steven. He thought that he was right in doing so until Jesus straightened him out. He suffered greatly in proclaiming the “God News- Jesus Christ the Savior of the world” All of these men suffered greatly for the love of God and man. It was "Amazing Grace " that gave them the courage and strength to keep going until their death.

Faith is not seeing what we believe, but believing without seeing. The REWARD of faith is seeing what we believe. Jesus said, more holy or blessed are those that believe without seeing. Jesus does give signs but that is His decision to make. We must say"Thy Holy will be done, always, because You know best." If you request a sign and don’t receive it will you reject Christ. If you do, you never were converted, or love Jesus for Himself only for His gifts. If you ask your mother for something and she refused, would you quit loving her, if you do you never really loved her. If you have faith in God you never really walk away from Him. If you are tired its because your swimming upstream against the flow. When you can’t handle it any more say to Jesus “You take over, I give it all to you” Maybe thats your trouble, you are trying to do it all yourself by keeping the faith the best you can, doing all the good works that you do. Thats the trouble you don’t get faith by good works and effort but strictly by the Grace of God, a gift from Jesus Christ Himself. No one will take the credit for the faith they have because they worked for it and at it, it was by Gace through Jesus that we are saved. You know now what you have to do. You received a lot of instructions, n ow its your turn. God loves you whether you believe or not. May He bless you with His gift.
 
ynotzap said:
Yes but He is not resurrected in their spiritual lives. He is the one who gave them a soul made to His image, a spiritual one. It has nothing to do with free will in accepting Him. Your mother co-operated with God to bring you into this world,it is God who gave you life, some children are born dead. His love for you brought you into existence in order so that you can share His life, in Heaven.

St. Augustine late in life, after his mother prayed 28-32 years was converted He led a sinful life, a life of lustful pleasure, It was very hard for him to give up his ways, but by the grace of God he became a holy and great teacher in the Church and led many to Christ. ST. Paul persecuted Christians even condoned the killing of St.Steven. He thought that he was right in doing so until Jesus straightened him out. He suffered greatly in proclaiming the “God News- Jesus Christ the Savior of the world” All of these men suffered greatly for the love of God and man. It was "Amazing Grace " that gave them the courage and strength to keep going until their death.

Faith is not seeing what we believe, but believing without seeing. The REWARD of faith is seeing what we believe. Jesus said, more holy or blessed are those that believe without seeing. Jesus does give signs but that is His decision to make. We must say"Thy Holy will be done, always, because You know best." If you request a sign and don’t receive it will you reject Christ. If you do, you never were converted, or love Jesus for Himself only for His gifts. If you ask your mother for something and she refused, would you quit loving her, if you do you never really loved her. If you have faith in God you never really walk away from Him. If you are tired its because your swimming upstream against the flow. When you can’t handle it any more say to Jesus “You take over, I give it all to you” Maybe thats your trouble, you are trying to do it all yourself by keeping the faith the best you can, doing all the good works that you do. Thats the trouble you don’t get faith by good works and effort but strictly by the Grace of God, a gift from Jesus Christ Himself. No one will take the credit for the faith they have because they worked for it and at it, it was by Gace through Jesus that we are saved. You know now what you have to do. You received a lot of instructions, n ow its your turn. God loves you whether you believe or not. May He bless you with His gift.
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Sorry, but yes, after a certain amount of time and a certain amount of neglect, a healthy person’s feelings of love and trust in that mother would fade away naturally. I don’t choose to reject him because he pissed me off for not showing me a sign or something. My faith is sliding away, and prayers to him for the gift of stronger faith appear to have gone unanswered. In reflecting on the pointlessness of our actions or choices, as you so clearly remind me, it occurred to me that I shouldn’t let that bother me. My faithfulness or worldliness will not change his will to give me faith or not, so why stress over whether I’m being faithful or worldly? Trust me, without such faith, downstream is WITH the pull of modern society.
 
What is stronger faith? You keep saying you are praying for stronger faith but he won’t give it to you. What are you talking about? Do you mean you are praying to someone that you hardly believe in, or not even at all, and asking him to give you a sign or something so you can really believe? Did you read the bible? That doesn’t do enough for you? Did you have knowledge of the saints? Did you see the good works of those around you? Did your good works build any faith in you? You are telling God that all you have seen and done and all that was done by him and his followers isn’t enough to keep you interested in him. You’d rather just go with flow. You’d rather just get a little dirty. You don’t want to wallow in the mud, you say, but you want to just get a little dirty unless God gives you a sign. Your tired of doing good works. Your tired of trying to care about all this Christianity hocus pocus.

Hey man. You don’t have to do anything extra special to be in need of God’s help which is what you asserted. Let me give you a clue. God resists the proud.

Your OP is full of self contradictions. Go back and read what you wrote. “I’ve been doing all that God wants.” “God won’t redirect me.” “If I do evil, God will come to redirect me”. You already know that you are doing it wrong or your soul wouldn’t be crying out for redirection. You are already telling the truth about yourself. You just have to pay attention to what you are saying.

You want to attempt to manipulate him to get the desired results. God resists the proud. Indeed, all your works may have been an attempt to manipulate him into showing his face to you.
 
You might want to consider that God is angry with you because of your attitude towards him and the action you are tempted to take to get what you want out of him. After being killed and coming back to life and changing the course of the world you’d go out and do some evil to get him to show up at your door. But of course, you would have him show up in the way you desire. Full of love and compassion, tender-like. He would hold you and tell you, “Now you can good. Now that you’ve seen my face, you can love me, and be good and virtuous again. I’m so sorry I neglected you. It’s all my fault that you strayed from the righteous path. If only I had come sooner.” Then he can tear his vestments and exclaim “Father! Forgive me for my sins. I caused this one to do evil with my slothful and neglectful ways! It is I who have sinned against him.” Then you can hold him and tell him you forgive him.

If you go out and do evil to get him to show up, you are a fool.
 
I’m not “doing it” to manipulate him. That’d just be stupid. And I’m not “pretending” as per post 3. Maybe the way I phrased the OP could have been better, now that I look back, but at the root, I’m wondering if it would turn out any differently either way.
 
Neoplatonist said:
I’ve been running this experiment for quite some time, leading a good and virtuous life, embracing the low pay of a worker for the Church, etc., and the results have been a weak faith and a mind/life filled with unfulfilled hope that I might receive help and consolation from God, the saints, the angels.

Perhaps I should reverse the electrical charge and see if that has any better effect—it seems to me from the stories of the saints that it is by being wealthy and living a life of hedonistic indulgence that I am more likely to have God or his angels show up to re-direct me. Either I’m unhappy, as now, but with more money in the bank to cover my retirement and my kid’s college tuition OR I have a moving religious experience (a la St. Paul, St. Francis of Assisi, or any of the many, many others), change my ways, and go on to a life of faith and fulfillment.

Be honest with yourselves: would you rather be St. Francis with the vision of the Seraphim or Mother Teresa of Calcutta wandering in the desert of faith (as described in her memoirs)?

Now, of course, there have been loads of rich jerks that didn’t receive a powerful religious experience to set them on the path of a powerful faith, but the same is true for loads of poor, good-hearted people as well. My attempts to penetrate that argument have been met with “God’s ways are a mystery,” and faith is a free gift from God, so my choice to be rich or poor won’t/can’t change his mind, so to speak, regarding whether or not he reaches out to me. The best shot according to the Bible seems to be “leaving the 99 to go after the 1 stray sheep.”

What do you think?
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The evil tree does not bear good fruit. You are not going to get God’s favor by living an evil life.
 
I don’t think you are pretending so I’m not mincing words here. I think you really are considering falling away to see if God will come get you. At the root of it, you probably do want some love. He wouldn’t be unaware of that. I urge you, to stay on the path that you chose first. You have been wise so far.
 
JamesATyler said:
You might want to consider that God is angry with you because of your attitude towards him and the action you are tempted to take to get what you want out of him. After being killed and coming back to life and changing the course of the world you’d go out and do some evil to get him to show up at your door. But of course, you would have him show up in the way you desire. Full of love and compassion, tender-like. He would hold you and tell you, “Now you can good. Now that you’ve seen my face, you can love me, and be good and virtuous again. I’m so sorry I neglected you. It’s all my fault that you strayed from the righteous path. If only I had come sooner.” Then he can tear his vestments and exclaim “Father! Forgive me for my sins. I caused this one to do evil with my slothful and neglectful ways! It is I who have sinned against him.” Then you can hold him and tell him you forgive him.

If you go out and do evil to get him to show up, you are a fool.
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Actually, no. I’d be fine with a bolt of lightning or a booming voice from the sky that scared 8 kinds of **** out of me. Pillar of fire, pillar of salt, plague of locusts.

And no, obviously the Bible and the lives of the saints have not been sufficient. If they were sufficient, then there would be no room for the Catholic position that faith is a gift from God. If you could get it from reading the right books and saying the right prayers it would be something you earned. I feel like you’ve missed/mis-read whole sections of this thread. If you can be agitated with me for not having it after the things I’ve seen or read, then, again, you’re not really in touch with the whole point of it being a gift from God - it’s not some stubborn decision on my part like continuing to vote for the wrong political party.

Since when has the child who feels unloved been accused of pride?? That’s bizarre. You make it sound like I’m angry at him because he hasn’t paid me the homage I deserve or something. “What? He works and slaves away to provide you this nice house and this food to eat and you’re complaining that your father never spends time with you? You’re frustrated because he never gives you a hug or a kind word? He sent you letters when he was traveling telling you how to live your life and assuring you there would be a place for you in the family business if you followed his directions well and succeed in school. You expect him to come watch your soccer games too? Why, look at all he’s done for this family, you little ingrate.”

You may be right, I may have set out with less clarity that I am working from at this point.
 
If there were a booming voice from the sky, you wouldn’t need any faith. You would have proof. You have been praying for greater faith and so he hasn’t given you any proof. In your heart, it sounds like you are wanting for proof. Another poster pointed that out to you early on. But what God is giving you is an opportunity to grow in faith. Now your faith is being put to the test. What’s the test? It is against your desire for proof. Will you fall away because you didn’t receive proof or will you continue to walk in faith without proof. He answered your prayer you spoke and the answer is yes. He will give you the opportunity to grow in faith.
 
JamesATyler said:
If there were a booming voice from the sky, you wouldn’t need any faith. You would have proof. You have been praying for greater faith and so he hasn’t given you any proof. In your heart, it sounds like you are wanting for proof. Another poster pointed that out to you early on. But what God is giving you is an opportunity to grow in faith. Now your faith is being put to the test. What’s the test? It is against your desire for proof. Will you fall away because you didn’t receive proof or will you continue to walk in faith without proof. He answered your prayer you spoke and the answer is yes. He will give you the opportunity to grow in faith.
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On your theory, the apostles no longer had faith, then, once Christ showed them miracles? If signs to strengthen your faith turn it to knowledge, that would follow. No faith for Francis after the appearance of the seraphim?

Let me say this again: I can’t CHOOSE to grow in faith. That’s not how gifts work.

You sound like there’s a choice in front of me that I’m not picking. I’m not *deciding *for my faith to grow weak, the only decision I’ve made up to this point is to pray for stronger faith - if that comes without signs and wonders, fine, if not, then I hope for signs and wonders to strengthen it as is told of so many times in the Bible and the lives of the saints. At some point it just seems stupid to keep asking for something when asking doesn’t feel like it’s doing anything.
 
Neoplatonist said:
Since when has the child who feels unloved been accused of pride?? That’s bizarre. You make it sound like I’m angry at him because he hasn’t paid me the homage I deserve or something. “What? He works and slaves away to provide you this nice house and this food to eat and you’re complaining that your father never spends time with you? You’re frustrated because he never gives you a hug or a kind word? He sent you letters when he was traveling telling you how to live your life and assuring you there would be a place for you in the family business if you followed his directions well and succeed in school. You expect him to come watch your soccer games too? Why, look at all he’s done for this family, you little ingrate.”

You may be right, I may have set out with less clarity that I am working from at this point.
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Alright, I’ll back down on the accusations of pride. I apologize. I gathered from your post you are not a child. You are not God’s only child. You said you were walking the path of virtue. Jesus leaves the 99 and goes to the 1 who needs him. You are one of the 99. You said so. God gave his answer to you already in parables. “All he has is yours.” Don’t be jealous of the love he gives to the lost brother that Jesus goes out to meet half-way and don’t desire to be like him. He feels emptier than you do, and the “fatted calf” probably doesn’t fill him up either. Instead of standing around thinking about sinning to win God’s attention, let us all, who have been blessed by God already, turn our attention to our lost brothers and give love. Give love. I apologize for sounding preachy.
 
. . . and what does “opportunity to grow in faith” even mean? That’s like saying, “By not giving you any presents, I’m instead giving you the opportunity to receive presents.” ??

It’s not up to me if my faith grows.
 
Neoplatonist said:
On your theory, the apostles no longer had faith, then, once Christ showed them miracles? If signs to strengthen your faith turn it to knowledge, that would follow. No faith for Francis after the appearance of the seraphim?

Let me say this again: I can’t CHOOSE to grow in faith. That’s not how gifts work.

You sound like there’s a choice in front of me that I’m not picking. I’m not *deciding *for my faith to grow weak, the only decision I’ve made up to this point is to pray for stronger faith - if that comes without signs and wonders, fine, if not, then I hope for signs and wonders to strengthen it as is told of so many times in the Bible and the lives of the saints. At some point it just seems stupid to keep asking for something when asking doesn’t feel like it’s doing anything.
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They still needed faith for Jesus was accused of many things including being in league with Satan and by him receiving the ability to do these miracles. There faith was tested in other ways. If God were to show himself to you, you would still need to have faith in him but you would no longer need faith to believe he was real. Faith is what gives assurance of things that have not been seen. You want the greater faith and Jesus said the one who receives it “is blessed”.
 
Neoplatonist said:
On your theory, the apostles no longer had faith, then, once Christ showed them miracles? If signs to strengthen your faith turn it to knowledge, that would follow. No faith for Francis after the appearance of the seraphim?

Let me say this again: I can’t CHOOSE to grow in faith. That’s not how gifts work.

You sound like there’s a choice in front of me that I’m not picking. I’m not *deciding *for my faith to grow weak, the only decision I’ve made up to this point is to pray for stronger faith - if that comes without signs and wonders, fine, if not, then I hope for signs and wonders to strengthen it as is told of so many times in the Bible and the lives of the saints. At some point it just seems stupid to keep asking for something when asking doesn’t feel like it’s doing anything.
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If you are not getting what you are asking for, you may need to reexamine what you are asking for.
3] You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions
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James 4:3​
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