T
tjm190
Guest
Right. Which is why those who enjoy violent movies begin to disregard human life and go on killing sprees.
- Status
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
The truth of Holy Mother Church is immutible. And the manifold problems with the extraordinarily selfish attitude of, “I like X and know the difference between right and wrong” never stand up to scrutiny.
You need to understand the tactics of the enemy and the concept of personal sin radiating to encompass the church, the society, and even the cosmos. Your selfishness has an effect on the universe.
In a decent society, such filth would not be tolerated. Now, it’s demanded… as ‘entertainment.’
Better minds than mine have given such warnings throughout history. You ignore them at your peril—and the world’s.
You need to understand the tactics of the enemy and the concept of personal sin radiating to encompass the church, the society, and even the cosmos. Your selfishness has an effect on the universe.
In a decent society, such filth would not be tolerated. Now, it’s demanded… as ‘entertainment.’
Better minds than mine have given such warnings throughout history. You ignore them at your peril—and the world’s.
T
tjm190
Guest
Selfish? Not automatically accept it when someone says something is wrong is selfishness? I tend to use the phrase “not gullible.”
The writers of Seinfeld are not demons seizing every opportunity to make you sin- and your mentality of “the world is out to get me” is far from healthy.
A show in which characters act immorally is filth?
Care to present some of their statements?
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear tjm,
You cannot drive a wedge between a show where actors simulate acts of sin for the purposes of entertainment (that can be of itself voyeuristic) and a show that actively supports sin. To do so is to make a false and indefensible dicotomy. For It is manifestly obvious that any programme or film that has objectionable content, e.g. pre-marital sex, explicit sexual encounters etc., is hardly going to encourage chastity and purity, on the contrary, given the baneful effects of original sin, it can only but excite sinful passions and arouse the base desires. If that is not serving to advance sin and vice then I don’t know what is.
Alas films/TV shows that depict scenes of violence, moral depravity and puerile inane humour have been steadily on the increase in the last thirty years, so much so that it appears that standards of good taste and decency have been all but overthrown. Unfortuanely Catholics, through a morbid fear of being thought Puritanical or rigorist, have
desisted from denouncing this steady stream of unwholesome junk. Indeed not only have they chosen to refrain from passing judgment, but they have been active in defending this offensive material and even declaring that they themselves are quite happy to watch it! Did not St. Paul admonish us to "…“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them” (Ephesians 5: 11, emphasis mine). Clearly as Christians we have an obligation to rebuke vice and sin in the strongest terms; to give an uncertain sound on the trumpet in this matter is to be disloyal to Christ and the Gospel.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
2
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear tjm,
Sailor has not said or implied the the writers of this Seinfield show are demons; he is remarking, if I understand him correctly, that the tactics of the Devil are such that their field of operation extends to fallen man. Thus non-Christians, because they lack a moral compass, are unwittingly doing the Devil’s work in advancing sin, vice and frivolity through the medium of film and TV. They are under Satan’s sway and serve him; they are “…following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2: 2).
Yes a show in which the characters act immorally is decidedly filth because they are simulating sinful acts in so doing. Moreover the viewing audience is in no doubt at to what these simulated scenes denote and are thus being entertained, possibly aroused sexually, by what they see. The spiritual harm occasioned by continual exposure to this sort smut is immeasurable - “Can a man carry fire in his bosom and his clothes not be scorched?” (Proverbs 6: 27). At the very least we are bound, over a period of time, to be desensitized as regards the exceeding sinfulness of sin.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
J
joeNJ
Guest
The definition of sin is “to violate a religious or moral law”. So the debate is if wearing a T-shirt of a particular TV show, is a sin? So some people seem to think watching a comedy show that portrays some immoral behavior is a sin, and then taking it a step further that wearing a T-shirt from that show is also a sin. This is pretty far removed from the actual sin is it not? You may not approve of the show and choose not to watch it and you may also freely state your opinion about it and really dislike seeing it promoted, but calling a person that wears a TV shirt of that show a sinner seems unreasonable.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear joeNJ,
Being attired in a T - shirt tied-in to a morally objectionable TV show could be construed by others as a tacit endorsement of that show and all its shameful and sinful content.
Moreover, voyeuristically observing people indulge in both illicit and explicit sexual encounters is hardly conducive to ones moral health; for such an obscene programme could possibly excite impure thoughts (cf. Phillip. 4: 8) and arouse base desires, thus causing one to stumble and sin. Now would any earnest Christian, seeking to pursue holiness (Heb. 12: 14), wish for this to happen?
Whatever the occasion of making us stumble, be it a dear friend, a favourite pursuit or pastime or a best loved novel, film or TV show, it *must *be freely sacrificed if we would finally reach heaven; remember our Lord’s words in the Sermon on the Mount - “If your right eye causes you sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you loose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell” (St. Matt. 5: 29). The foot note for this text in the RSV Catholic Edition is apposite, “An exaggeration to emphasize the need to avoid occasions to sin”.
Given the world’s sinful social structures these morally corrupt TV shows, themselves the fruit of men’s sins, exert a very negative influence upon people (even if they believe this not to be the case) - indeed how could they not do otherwise since these shows are rotten to the core and specimens of moral depravity. Now if Christians are already engaged in dour combat with the forces of evil, why make that engagement even more difficult, I mean it is hard enough as it is avoiding occasions of sin.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
J
joeNJ
Guest
Portrait, I appreciate your thoughts and the quality of your words. This is why I joined this forum, to learn how others view the same topic in a cordial manner. I find that I can enjoy a TV show without approving the actions or even liking the characters in the show. I also believe that many programs cross the line of good taste, but there is also a personal standard that is unique to an individual. What one considers garbage another person loves. Also, each person reacts to different shows in a different way. Some are completely unaffected while others are stirred to action. This is why I personally do not judge a person for wearing a “Seinfeld” TV shirt. While I know others will judge them, the person that wears a shirt like that has to consider if they care what a segment of the population thinks.
Portrait, can you clarify what you mean by “corrupt TV shows, themselves the fruit of men’s sins” means?
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear joeNJ,
Thankyou most kindly for your response and may I accord you a warm welcome to the CAF.
By “morally corrupt TV shows, the fruit of men’s sins”, I advert to the unsavoury content of certain TV shows which are the creation of fallen men who are devoid of any moral compass to guide them as to what is seemly or unseemly, what conforms to good taste and what violates good taste, what is morally acceptable and what isn’t. Their various offensive TV productions are therefore the “fruit” which inevitably emanates from their sinful natures. As St. Paul reminds the Ephesians and us all, sinners are “dead in trespasses and sins” and need to be made alive by the grace of Christ (in Baptism); later in Ephesians St. Paul states that sinners in rebellion against God “…are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their heart… they are greedy to practice every kind of uncleaness” (Eph. 4: 18-19). Now it is owing to this alienation from God that they lack the moral sense ( the darkness of which the apostle speaks) to be able to distinguish what is in conformity to God’s law and what is not. Alas, sometimes they end up calling good evil and evil good, putting light for darkness and darkness for light. Hence the ugrent necessity for men to repent and embrace the Gospel of Christ and submit to Holy Baptism, washing away their sins. The heart of man is desperately wicked and is in need of Christ’s redemption and justification; this is confirmed by our Lord when he said to St. Peter, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man…” (St. Matt. 15: 19-20). It is these sins that inspire men to produce such morally offensive or graphically violent TV/film productions; can you imagine any Christian worth their salt producing such. vile TV shows like Seinfield or The Simpsons or films such as “Death Wish” or even the bed-hopping James Bond.
What deeply saddens me is to hear Catholics doing their utmost not only to defend these detestable shows, but also to justify themselves as to why they think it is perfectly acceptable to watch them. One expects this sort of thing from Liberal Protestants, not orthodox Catholics. How we need to “try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord” and not to be associated “with the unfruitful works of darkness, but intead expose them” (Eph. 5: 8-9, emphasis mine).
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Thankyou most kindly for your response and may I accord you a warm welcome to the CAF.
By “morally corrupt TV shows, the fruit of men’s sins”, I advert to the unsavoury content of certain TV shows which are the creation of fallen men who are devoid of any moral compass to guide them as to what is seemly or unseemly, what conforms to good taste and what violates good taste, what is morally acceptable and what isn’t. Their various offensive TV productions are therefore the “fruit” which inevitably emanates from their sinful natures. As St. Paul reminds the Ephesians and us all, sinners are “dead in trespasses and sins” and need to be made alive by the grace of Christ (in Baptism); later in Ephesians St. Paul states that sinners in rebellion against God “…are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their heart… they are greedy to practice every kind of uncleaness” (Eph. 4: 18-19). Now it is owing to this alienation from God that they lack the moral sense ( the darkness of which the apostle speaks) to be able to distinguish what is in conformity to God’s law and what is not. Alas, sometimes they end up calling good evil and evil good, putting light for darkness and darkness for light. Hence the ugrent necessity for men to repent and embrace the Gospel of Christ and submit to Holy Baptism, washing away their sins. The heart of man is desperately wicked and is in need of Christ’s redemption and justification; this is confirmed by our Lord when he said to St. Peter, “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man…” (St. Matt. 15: 19-20). It is these sins that inspire men to produce such morally offensive or graphically violent TV/film productions; can you imagine any Christian worth their salt producing such. vile TV shows like Seinfield or The Simpsons or films such as “Death Wish” or even the bed-hopping James Bond.
What deeply saddens me is to hear Catholics doing their utmost not only to defend these detestable shows, but also to justify themselves as to why they think it is perfectly acceptable to watch them. One expects this sort of thing from Liberal Protestants, not orthodox Catholics. How we need to “try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord” and not to be associated “with the unfruitful works of darkness, but intead expose them” (Eph. 5: 8-9, emphasis mine).
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
It comes down to this: “I don’t care if I wallow in sin, and drag the rest of the world down, as long as I can get a cheap laugh.”
In a decent society, this would not be tolerated. I have no idea of the age of the posters here, but I am old enough to have seen one.
In a waiting room yesterday I read Road and Track, and was assaulted, literally, with porn ads.
In a magazine about cars.
Filth is now the norm—but it is NOT normal, nor is it desirable.
Personal sin radiates. It contaminates all of society. One day, you’ll have to answer to a higher authority than me.
T
tjm190
Guest
And how exactly does watching a TV in which characters sin in a manner consistent with much of society, possibly exaggerated for comedic value, constitute “wallowing in sin”?
This is because the “car magazine reader” demographic is, for one reason or another, a part of the target demographic for pornography. Not because Seinfeld is popular.
S
Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I am appalled to see so many people on a Catholic forum arguing in favor of indecent entertainment, AND making excuses for the way society so casually accepts it as normal—merely because ’ you want to watch,’ without giving an ounce of consideration to the radiating nature of personal sin.
Some of you have used the example of Seinfeld’s show. Well and good. You trumpet it as some sort of morality play.
But where are the good guys? Who does the right thing? Who do you root for?
It’s Goofus and Gallant without the Gallant.
If no one on a show does the right thing, then you are merely guffawing at the misfortune and personal sin of others.
There is a current TV ad to make the saints and angels weep. The product sold is a music CD of rock hits sung by children, FOR children. Eight-to-eleven-year-olds dressed as hookers and pimps gyrate to obscene lyrics that (pray God) they do not understand.
But what about the parents? Surely they understand. And to what are they consigning their precious offspring?
They may fear radioactivity itself, greenhouse gas, cholesterol, yet not the degradation of an entire society?
We have plummeted so far down that slope that people can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong.
Some of you have used the example of Seinfeld’s show. Well and good. You trumpet it as some sort of morality play.
But where are the good guys? Who does the right thing? Who do you root for?
It’s Goofus and Gallant without the Gallant.
If no one on a show does the right thing, then you are merely guffawing at the misfortune and personal sin of others.
There is a current TV ad to make the saints and angels weep. The product sold is a music CD of rock hits sung by children, FOR children. Eight-to-eleven-year-olds dressed as hookers and pimps gyrate to obscene lyrics that (pray God) they do not understand.
But what about the parents? Surely they understand. And to what are they consigning their precious offspring?
They may fear radioactivity itself, greenhouse gas, cholesterol, yet not the degradation of an entire society?
We have plummeted so far down that slope that people can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong.
P
Portrait
Guest
Dear Sailor Kenshin,
You will notice from my contributions to this thread that I have been denouncing and decrying in the strongest terms the immorality and decadent nature of many modern TV shows.
Moreover I have also said that I am deeply distressed by Catholics, who should no better, defending these detestable and morally repugnant TV shows (eg Seinfield and The Simpsons) and seeking to justify why they think they are quite acceptable veiwing material. I also argued earlier that people’s moral sense has been blunted by too much exposure to this unmitigated filth so much so that they can no longer distinguish between right and wrong. Thus I am in total agreement with you - we have indeed plummeted down the slope of indifference to such a degree that many can no longer see that which is plainly obscene and not in good taste.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
T
tjm190
Guest
And what “personal sin” is radiating?
This isn’t an epic tale- nobody is actively seeking to accomplish any overarching goal, so you aren’t supposed to be cheering anyone on. Who is audience of The Taming of the Shrew supposed to root for? The readers of Candide?
There are genres besides adventure…
I’ve watched more sit coms then I care to mention and have no issue identifying when the characters sin.
J
joeNJ
Guest
This issue will alway have two sides because everyone reacts differently and is affected differently by watching the same show. Some measure of personal responsibility is needed, kids should not watch these shows and adults who feel they may be tempted into a morally corrupt action should not watch these shows. If a person can watch a show for the entertainment and not be affected in any other way, it is not a sin to watch these shows. The line must be drawn somewhere and the line changes with the era. In the Victorian era, a glimpse of a womans ankle was scandalous.
While I strongly believe that our culture’s morals, ethics and character are declining and media is a part of it, personal responsibility is also declining. The media adversely affects the most impressionable of us, typically our children, but adults should be able to make choices. True, many adult choices are poor but the first post asked if wearing an article of clothing from “Seinfeld” is a sin. The person wearing it has to ask themselves if they care what others think. It is there choice to wear it. I write a blog called “Living in an R rated World” where I describe a variety of issues that are changing our ethics, manners, character and morals. But even I don’t think this is a sin.
rratedworld.blogspot.com/
While I strongly believe that our culture’s morals, ethics and character are declining and media is a part of it, personal responsibility is also declining. The media adversely affects the most impressionable of us, typically our children, but adults should be able to make choices. True, many adult choices are poor but the first post asked if wearing an article of clothing from “Seinfeld” is a sin. The person wearing it has to ask themselves if they care what others think. It is there choice to wear it. I write a blog called “Living in an R rated World” where I describe a variety of issues that are changing our ethics, manners, character and morals. But even I don’t think this is a sin.
rratedworld.blogspot.com/
L
LilyM
Guest
Thank you for this - it certainly tallies very well with what I think. People are affected extremely differently by tv shows, and it does need to be acknowledged that wearing a Seinfeld t-shirt may be an incitement to a percentage of the population to sin although for others it wouldn’t.
But we DO need to be careful how far we take our fear of giving scandal or being a bad influence and that we don’t swing the pendulum too far to the Puritanical. Ours is not and never has been a puritanical religion.
Paul certainly didn’t tell his followers that as a blanket rule none of them could eat meat because it might cause a difficulty with some. Even though he well and truly acknowledged that some of them were indeed highly susceptible.
He simply urged them to think about what they were doing and the example it might set to others. We caan be sure that most, after they had thought about it (as they doubtless did), continued to eat meat, as we do to this day.
So to say as any sort of blanket rule that you can’t wear a t-shirt from a show that you personally don’t find to be an occasion of sin or a sinful influence, but which others might, is going well beyond what Paul taught us.
J
joeNJ
Guest
Thank you Lily, I agree.
M
matahari
Guest
Wearing these accessories makes the wearer a walking free advertisement for the message whatever the message happens to be.
Looking through some T shirts recently I was amazed to see one cutely designed tee shirt which said
" Don’t bring another stupid human into the world "
Looking through some T shirts recently I was amazed to see one cutely designed tee shirt which said
" Don’t bring another stupid human into the world "
B
Brooklyn
Guest
This is a really interesting thread. I do find it interesting that some are so sure of their spiritual strength that they feel they can watch people engaged in mortal sin and not be affected by it in any way, especially when these actions are done by attractive, humorous people. You honestly believe that watching people commit mortal sin does not desensitize you to how terrible sin is, and the fact that our Lord shed his blood on the Cross because of this sin?
I don’t think that eating meat that has been used in pagan rituals, as Paul talked about, is equivalent to watching and laughing at people engaged in immoral, selfish and boorish behaviour, completely antithetical to Christian principles. For those of you who defend these shows, if you could see Jesus Christ sitting on the couch next to you, would you continue to watch?
V
VeronicaAnne
Guest
I just saw on the local news a report that a study was done a couple of months ago to determine why it is that men are more likely to buy muscle cars.
The study’s report showed that men… when they are driving a muscle car… have a clearly measurable rise in their testosterone level.
It didn’t matter the age – from early teen to very old. Their blood was tested before they got in the car. And, again, another blood sample was taken after they’d driven the car.
I just thought I’d share that…
- Status