Would I qualify to be catholic?

[ralphinal]

It shows the one mistake that Jesus made: he allows sinners into his Church.

Basically, look at the teachings, not the failures of those who are supposed to learn.

I am 35, soon to be 36. One of the many things that I have learned in my short life is that people will always let you down if you trust them. Sooner or later, they will do something that disappoints you. It is a sad commentary on human existance. I can do nothing about it. However, I cannot stop trusting people. I rely on others for many things, and I must put my faith into them. When I am let down by them, I must forgive them and start over.

It is the same way with the faith. Our Church people have let us down many times, but the teachings have not. The faith stands despite the bad popes, bishops, priests, and layity. Dispite all of our efforts as sinners, the Church stands.

I will not condemn nor condone anything that the people in the Church did without all facts. Yes, I am ashamed of many of the actions, but i am still proud to be Catholic.

 

[Sister_Amy]

You know, algebra, I’m not being flippant here. I do think you need to seriously do some internal reflection, and pray for guidance. And I’ll stand with those on this board who suggest that you should try a mass. Go ahead, if you think Catholicism makes sense, then commit to it, start learning about it seriously–and that’s not going to happen on the internet, I don’t think. Hook up with some Catholics around you and see what happens. And keep praying.

I think you really owe it to yourself to seek out truth, you’re thirsting for it in such a major way.

 

[ralphinal]

Okay, I get it. The more I discuss something with you, the more strongly you adhere to the opposite position?

Sister Amy,
Your advice to pray was wonderful.

Do not lose sight of the fact that everyone has their own struggles. What you say today may meam more a year from now.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,
Your advice to pray was wonderful.

Do not lose sight of the fact that everyone has their own struggles. What you say today may meam more a year from now.

Believe it or not, I think it’d be really great if algebra were to become Catholic, if he could do it sincerely. I’ve seen this guy struggling for a long time with faith, and despite what you might think, I don’t think Catholicism is evil.

I was actually really glad to see algebra show up on this board–I hope you guys can help him out.

 

[cazayoux]

Whilst I accept the teachings of the catholic church, and I love its interpretation of christian scripture.

I have a problem with the past of the church.

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Yet I am drawn to its teachings.

I would suggest RCIA.
Before actually joining the church, RCIA is there to teach you about the church.
This would be a great forum for you to learn and ask questions.

michel

 

[ralphinal]

Believe it or not, I think it’d be really great if algebra were to become Catholic, if he could do it sincerely. I’ve seen this guy struggling for a long time with faith, and despite what you might think, I don’t think Catholicism is evil.

I was actually really glad to see algebra show up on this board–I hope you guys can help him out.

I do believe that. Don’t forget that I don’t think that all Muslims are evil liers.

Everyone at one point searches for the Truth. For some, it is a long journey that never finds an end on earth. For others, it is quick. Either way, we should help each other and pray always.

 

[inJESUS]

I still have reservations about the man-god thing.

God-Man, not man -god but that deserves another thread…
so if you accept the teachings and reject some parts of the past, you can still be Catholic, Eastern one if you don’t like the “Roman” past but hey, we all accept the teachings yet many do not agree on things in the past while others have different perspectives…and both sides are still Catholics no prob whatsoever

 

[algebra]

Okay, I get it. The more I discuss something with you, the more strongly you adhere to the opposite position?

Before we discussed that two G_Ds thing I considered the notion of the trinity to be false.

After our discussion I still didnt/dont buy it, but at least it sounded plausible.

Ironically what sealed the deal for me wrt islam was the other topic I have been bugging you about “evil eye”

 

[katy_kt]

Can a person go to RCIA, even if you are not sure you want to be catholic?

Yes

 

[inJESUS]

Ironically what sealed the deal for me wrt islam was the other topic I have been bugging you about “evil eye”

actually the Trinity is another good reason for rejecting Muhammad’s “revelations” because even if you do not hold it as true that the Father has Wisdom and Spirit, at least you must realize that Muhammad did not even get it right for nowhere is the Spirit mentioned regarding Christians but Mary was mentioned 3 times in the context of “divinity” and Trinity…hardly a revelation from the All-knowing who “must” get it right if he wants to refute it otherwise it’s a strawman

 

[Ohwesty]

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Yet I am drawn to its teachings.

I am a lifelong Catholic who knew very little about Church history. I was a young adult when I first picked up a book about it and I remember how terribly scandalized I was. I can only tell you that the Church is filled with humans who have often failed to live up to the Gospel. Remember that out of twelve apostles, there was one Judas. Jesus said that in his kingdom the sheep and the goats, the good and the bad, would rub shoulders. He said the wheat and the weeds would not be separated until the end of time. Until then, we have to stand guard over our lives. We have to work on separating the wheat and the weeds within our own hearts. As for the others, let God sort them out.

Some good advice is to keep your eyes on the Saints. Their lives most mirror Christ’s, and no other religion on earth can boast of such heroic sanctity. And so while some people complain about our sinners, I think of our Saints. While some complain about the treasures of the Vatican and lavish lives of past Popes, I think of the poverty of the Franciscan friars and the simplicity of the monks. When others complain about the Crusades and the Inquisition, I think of the countless hospitals and schools and charitable organizations that our world would not have without the Catholic Church. If you look for the beautiful and the positive, you will find it. If you look for the ugly and the negative, you will find that too. It all depends on what you’re looking for.

We have the Lord’s promise that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church and that she will not teach doctrinal error. He did not guarantee that we would be free from scandal and internal conflict if we didn’t remain true to our baptismal vows. You said you were attracted to the Church’s teachings – so you have something in common with the Church Fathers and the Saints and all good Catholics everywhere. The Church has had her problems from the beginning. Yet we have survived and thrived, not because we are good, but because God is good. We will survive in spite of ourselves.

• Westy

 

[LilyM]

I realise that it is meant to be a passover meal.

Shouldnt it be more “meal” and less “rite”

Have you ever attended a passover seder? There is a lot of prescribed ceremony and ritual goes with it. From wikipedia:

"Order of the Seder

[edit] Kadeish (blessings and the first cup of wine)
Kadeish is Hebrew Imperative for Kiddush. This Kiddush is a special one for Passover, it refers to matzot and the Exodus from Egypt. Acting in a way that shows freedom and majesty, most Jews have the custom of filling each other’s cups at the Seder table. The Kiddush is normally said by the father of the house.

[edit] Ur’chatz (wash hands)
In traditional Jewish homes, it is common to ritually wash the hands before a meal. According to most traditions, no blessing is recited at this point in the Seder, unlike the blessing recited over the washing of the hands before eating bread at any other time. However, followers of Ramba"m or the Gaon of Vilna do recite a blessing.

[edit] Karpas (appetizer)
Each participant dips a vegetable into either salt water (Ashkenazi custom; said to serve as a reminder of the tears shed by their enslaved ancestors), vinegar (Sephardi custom) or charoset (older Sephardi custom; still common among Yemenite Jews). Another custom mentioned in some Ashkenazi sources and probably originating with Meir of Rothenburg[citation needed], was to dip the karpas in wine.

[edit] Yachatz (breaking of the middle matzah)
The middle of the matzot on the Seder Plate is broken in two. The larger piece is hidden, to be used later as the afikoman, the “dessert” after the meal. The smaller piece is returned to its place between the other two matzos.

[edit] Magid (The telling)
The story of Passover, and the change from slavery to freedom is told.

[edit] Ha Lachma Anya (invitation to the Seder)

The matzot are uncovered, and referred to as the “bread of affliction”. Participants declare (in Aramaic) an invitation to all who are hungry or needy to join in the Seder. Halakha requires that this invitation be repeated in the native language of the country (e.g. English).

[edit] Mah Nishtanah (The Four Questions)
The Mishna details five questions one is obligated to ask on the night of the seder. However, since one of those five is not relevant today (as it deals with korbanot relevant to the day), one is only required to ask the remaining four. It is customary for the youngest child to recite the Four Questions. Some customs hold that the other participants recite them quietly to themselves as well. In some families, this means that the requirement remains on an adult “child” until a grandchild of the family receives sufficient Jewish education to take on the responsibility. If a person has no children capable of asking, the responsibility falls to his wife. The need to ask is so great that even if a man is alone at the seder he is obligated to ask himself and to answer his own questions.

Ma nishtana ha lyla ha zeh mikkol hallaylot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?

Shebb’khol hallelot en anu matbillin afillu pa‘am eḥat, vehallayla hazze sh’tei fe‘amim.
Why is it that on all other nights we do not dip [our food] even once, but on this night we dip them twice?
Shebb’khol hallelot anu okh’lin ḥamets umatsa, vehallayla hazze kullo matsa.
Why is it that on all other nights during the year we eat either leavened bread or matza, but on this night we eat only matza?
Shebb’khol hallelot anu okh’lin sh’ar y’rakot, vehallayla hazze maror.
Why is it that on all other nights we eat all kinds of vegetables, but on this night we eat bitter herbs?
Shebb’khol hallelot anu okh’lin ben yosh’vin uven m’subbin, vehallayla hazze kullanu m’subbin.
Why is it that on all other nights we dine either sitting upright or reclining, but on this night we all recline?
The fifth question (which is meant to be inserted between numbers two and three above in place of the fourth) is:

Shebb’khol hallelot anu okh’lin basar tsali shaluk umvushal, vehallayla hazze kullo tsali.
Why is it that on all other nights we eat meat either roasted, marinated, or cooked, but on this night it is entirely roasted?
The largest number of translations of The Four Questions into the world’s languages can be found in a book entitled “300 Ways to Ask the Four Questions” by Spiegel and Stein (see WhyIsThisNight.com). There are almost 300 translations in the book.

The Four Sons
The Haggadah speaks of “four sons”—one who is wise, one who is wicked, one who is simple, and one who does not know to ask. Each of these sons phrase the question, “What is the meaning of this service?” in different ways. The Haggadah recommends answering each son according to his question, using one of the three verses in the Torah that refer to this father-son exchange.

 

[LilyM]

"The wise son, who inquires “What is the meaning of the statutes and laws that God has commanded you to do?”, is answered with “You should reply to him the laws of pesach: one may not eat any dessert after the paschal sacrifice.”, which seems at first glance to be a nonsequitur. This has been interpreted, however, as the son who already knows the facts becoming impatient with their recitation and wishing to skip over them to a deeper analysis; the answer is that it is absolutely required to retell the facts of the story publicly, for the edification of all attendees, whatever their level of knowledge.[1]

The wicked son, who asks his father the seemingly similar, “What is this service to you?”, in fact differentiates himself by the disinterested vagueness of his question, and is thus seen to be isolating himself from the Jewish people, standing by objectively and watching their behavior rather than participating. Therefore, he is rebuked by the explanation that “It is because God acted for my sake when I left Egypt.” (There is an explicit implication: the Seder is not for the wicked son because the wicked son would not have deserved to be freed from Egyptian slavery.) Where the four sons are illustrated in the Haggadah, this son has frequently been depicted as wearing stylish contemporary fashions.

The simple son, who asks, “What is this?” is answered with “With a strong hand the Almighty led us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage.”

And the one who does not know to ask is told, “It is because of what the Almighty did for me when I left Egypt.”

Some modern Seders have taken to referring to the “Sons” as “Children”, and some have added a fifth child. The fifth child can represent the children of the Shoah who did not survive to ask a question or to Jews who have drifted so far from Jewish life that they do not particpate in a Seder. [1][2] For the former, tradition is to say that for that child we ask “Why?” and, like the simple son, we have no answer.

[edit] “Go and learn”
Four verses in Deuteronomy (26:5-8) are then expounded, with an elaborate, traditional commentary. (“5. And thou shalt speak and say before the Lord thy God: 'A wandering Aramean was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous. 6. And the Egyptians dealt ill with us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage. 7. And we cried unto the Lord, the God of our fathers, and the Lord heard our voice, and saw our affliction, and our toil, and our oppression. 8 And the Lord brought us forth out of Egypt with a strong hand and an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders.”)

The Haggadah explores the meaning of those verses, and embellishes the story. This telling describes the slavery of the Jewish people and their miraculous salvation by God. This culminates in an enumeration of the Ten Plagues:

Dam (blood)—All the water was changed to blood
Tzefardeyah (frogs)—An infestation of frogs sprang up in Egypt
Kinim (lice)—The Egyptians were afflicted by lice
Arov (wild animals)—An infestation of wild animals (some say flies) sprang up in Egypt
Dever (pestilence)—A plague killed off the Egyptian livestock
Sh’chin (boils)—An epidemic of boils afflicted the Egyptians
Barad (hail)—Hail rained from the sky
Arbeh (locusts)—Locusts swarmed over Egypt
Choshech (darkness)—Egypt was covered in darkness
Makkat Bechorot (killing of the first-born)—All the first-born sons of the Egyptians were slain by God
With the recital of the Ten Plagues, each participant removes a drop of wine from his or her cup using a fingertip. Although this night is one of salvation, the Sages explain that one cannot be completely joyous when some of God’s creatures had to suffer. A mnemonic acronym for the plagues is also introduced: “D’tzach Adash B’achav”, while similarly spilling a drop of wine for each word.

At this part in the Seder, songs of praise are sung, including the song Dayeinu, which proclaims that had God performed any single one of the many deeds performed for the Jewish people, it would have been enough to obligate us to give thanks to Him.

[edit] Kos Sheini (Second Cup of Wine)
Magid concludes with the drinking of the Second Cup of Wine.

[edit] Rachtzah (ritual washing of hands)
The ritual hand-washing is repeated, this time with the traditional blessing before breaking bread.

[edit] Motzi Matzo (blessings over the matzo)
Lifting all three matzot, we recite the regular blessing for bread, then release the bottom matzo and recite the special blessing for the mitzvah of matzo. We then eat a portion of matzo from the top two matzot while leaning. (We can add more from other matzot as necessary for all the people at the table but we leave the third matzah for the Korech.)

The size of this portion of matzo should be no less than one half of a hand matzo or two-thirds of a machine matzo. Ideally it should be eaten within two minutes and not more than eighteen minutes.

In the days of the Temple in Jerusalem, a third blessing would be said at this time, asher kidishanu b’mitzvotov v’tzivanu l’echol et hazevach (who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to eat the Paschal sacrifice.)

[edit] Maror (bitter herb)
Bitter herbs are dipped into charoset, then the charoset is shaken off and the maror is eaten as a symbol of former slavery. The amount eaten is required to be a kazayis or kayazit (literally meaning the mass of an olive [3]), or greater.

[edit] Koreich (sandwich)
The matzo and maror are combined, similar to a sandwich, and eaten. This follows the tradition of Hillel, who did the same at his Seder table 2000 years ago (except that in Hillel’s day the Paschal sacrifice, matzo, and maror were eaten together.)

[edit] Shulchan Orech (the meal [literally, “set table”])

A Seder table settingThe festive meal is eaten. Traditionally it begins with the hard-boiled egg on the Seder plate [4], and may include gefilte fish, matzah ball soup, and roast chicken, turkey, or beef brisket as the main dish [5].

[edit] Tzafun (eating of the afikoman)
The afikoman, which was hidden earlier in the Seder, is traditionally the last morsel of food eaten by participants in the Seder.

Each participant receives an olive-sized portion of matzo to be eaten as afikoman. If there are many participants at the table, the leader of the Seder will supplement pieces of the original afikoman with other pieces of matzo to complete the required amount.

After the consumption of the afikoman, traditionally, no other food may be eaten for the rest of the night. Additionally, no intoxicating beverages may be consumed, with the exception of the remaining two cups of wine.

In some Seders, the children steal the Afikomen instead of it being hidden, and hold it for “ransom”, which gets them the prize they would have gotten if they had simply found it. It is sometimes more fun for older children this way.

[edit] Bareich (Grace after Meals)
The recital of Birkat Hamazon.

[edit] Kos Shlishi (the Third Cup of Wine)
The drinking of the Third Cup of Wine.

Note: The Third Cup is customarily poured before the Grace after Meals is recited because the Third Cup also serves as a Cup of Blessing associated with the Grace after Meals on special occasions.

[edit] Kos shel Eliyahu ha-Navi (cup of Elijah the Prophet)
In many traditions, the front door of the house is opened at this point. Psalms 79:6-7 is recited in both Ashkenazi and Sephardi traditions, plus Lamentations 3:66 among Ashkenazim.

Most Ashkenazim have the custom to fill a fifth cup at this point. This cup is traditionally called the Kos shel Eliyahu (“Cup of Elijah”). Traditionally, Elijah the Prophet visits each home on Seder night as a foreshadowing of his future arrival at the end of the days, when he will come to announce the coming of the Jewish Messiah. Some Jewish feminists place a Cup of Miriam filled with water beside the Cup of Elijah. The Passover Seder is traditionally connected with the Messianic age.

[edit] Hallel (songs of praise)
The entire order of Hallel which is usually recited in the synagogue on Jewish holidays is also recited at the Seder table, albeit sitting down. In addition, the Nishmat, a portion of the morning service for Shabbat and festivals, is traditionally recited. Afterwards the Fourth Cup of Wine is drunk and a brief Grace for the “fruit of the vine” is said.

[edit] Nirtzah
Main article: Passover songs
The Seder concludes with a prayer that the night’s service be accepted. A hope for the Messiah is expressed: “L’shanah haba’ah b’Yerushalayim! - Next year in Jerusalem!”

Although the 15 orders of the Seder have been complete, the Haggadah concludes with additional songs which further recount the miracles that occurred on this night in Ancient Egypt as well as throughout history. Some songs express a prayer that the Beit Hamikdash will soon be rebuilt. The last song to be sung is Chad Gadya (“One Kid Goat”). This seemingly childish song about different animals and people who attempted to punish others for their crimes and were in turn punished themselves, was interpreted by the Vilna Gaon as an allegory to the retribution God will levy over the enemies of the Jewish people at the end of days.

Following the Seder, those who are still awake may recite the Song of Songs, engage in Torah learning, or continue talking about the events of the Exodus until sleep overtakes them. "

 

[Genesis315]

While much of the past sins of churchmen have been exaggerated by the black legends of protestants and rationalists, the Church is and will always be made up of sinners and saints. Remember, Judas was a member of the 12 hand-picked by Our Lord and he stole from collections for the poor and then conspired in the murder of Christ for money. The wheat will always grow with the tares, the good fish will be in the net with the bad fish, and the goats will be among the sheep until the last day.

To be repelled by the sins of Catholics–even those in places of leadership–is to lack self-knowledge. We all have sinned and but for the mercy of Jesus Christ we should be burning in Gehenna this very moment. When we have knowledge of self, where we were, where we are, how we got there, and where we still need to go we will have compassion for poor sinners, and not contempt for them. Bear patiently and compassionately with the sins of others, like Our Lord bears patiently and compassionately with ours.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Algebra, I think you and I know deep in our hearts what is actually the truth. Try as you might to sugarcoat it, you cannot escape it.

Get down on your knees and pray. Seriously, investigating religion without consulting the divine… maybe it’s like buying a used car without checking Kelly Blue Book first… you’re gonna get ripped off.

 

[MagicKirk]

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Hello Algebra. In reading this thread I don’t see that anyone has asked you why the behavior of the Church sees so repugnant to you. What specifically is your objection? I know that your post is well-intended, so I wonder whether your sources come from places other than Wikipedia. I certainly have never considered the Church to have a “rabid” past. The Catholic Church has been the most generous philanthropic organization in history. The case has been made that the Catholic Church built Western Civilization. I am hopeful that some of your reservations can be eased by pointing you to more reputable sources.

 

[MagicKirk]

Francis Xavier a saint, destroyed legitimate “orthodox traditions” in India, using military force.

Hardly a saint in my mind.

Hello again Algebra.
During your spiritual journey you might want to check out www.newadvent.org, where you can check out the Catholic Encyclopedia.

The article is too long to copy here but the summary of the article on St. Francis Xavier states:
It is truly a matter of wonder that one man in the short space of ten years (6 May, 1542 - 2 December, 1552) could have visited so many countries, traversed so many seas, preached the Gospel to so many nations, and converted so many infidels. The incomparable apostolic zeal which animated him, and the stupendous miracles which God wrought through him, explain this marvel, which has no equal elsewhere. The list of the principal miracles may be found in the Bull of canonization. St. Francis Xavier is considered the greatest missionary since the time of the Apostles, and the zeal he displayed, the wonderful miracles he performed, and the great number of souls he brought to the light of true Faith, entitle him to this distinction. He was canonized with St. Ignatius in 1622, although on account of the death of Gregory XV, the Bull of canonization was not published until the following year.

 

[adrift]

Yet is rejecting jesus the same as rejecting the RCC, with its past?

One man’s saint is another man’s demon.

Francis Xavier a saint, destroyed legitimate “orthodox traditions” in India, using military force.

Hardly a saint in my mind.

Where did you get this?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Whilst I accept the teachings of the catholic church, and I love its interpretation of christian scripture.

I have a problem with the past of the church.

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Yet I am drawn to its teachings.

No man that ever lived followed the teachings of God. Peter was the first one who denied Jesus 3 times.

The Catholic church has two aspects to it, one divine in Jesus Christ, and one human. To be human is to error. It is by the divine unity of the Catholic church that maintains her incorruptible nature. Many a man have fallen short of the glory of God. But the Catholic church which is the body of Jesus Christ never fails.

If you can grab this concept of the body of Jesus Christ on earth in the Roman Catholic church, you cannot go wrong.

Peace be with you

 

[ralphinal]

Where did you get this?

I was going to ask once the matter of faith was settled.

Please provide us with a link or two. My memory of SFX does not include this, but my mind is tired and I do forget