Would I qualify to be catholic?

[grandfather]

Whilst I accept the teachings of the catholic church, and I love its interpretation of christian scripture.

I have a problem with the past of the church.

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Yet I am drawn to its teachings.

Al,
You are drawn and repulsed from the same thing, You are attracted to the thing you find repugnant. Have you tried counselling?

What do you see when you look at your own soul? Do you see any behaviors there that you find repugnant? Is there something about yourself that you don’t like? Its clear that you don’t like some historical figures, but are you the person you want to be? If you are not then you would fit right in with the rest of the broken souls in the Church. If you are morally sound, unlike those historical fallen Church figures you find repugnant you have no need of becoming Catholic or Christian.

You don’t have to concern yourself one bit about how those repugnant Catohlics behaved in the past. That is between them and God, their judge, and yours. All you need to worry about is what God will say to you about how you behaved. In fact He commands you to not judge those others. All you have to answer for is you. It sounds like you think you are a pretty good guy, better than those nasty Catholics of the past at least.

The Church is a place for criminals only, those who have committed crimes against God. If you have done that and are guilty then by all means you should think about joining the club. If you are not guilty then why bother? Jesus said, “I come for sinners, but you say you have no sin. Then what need do you have of me”. Good guys need not apply.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**I have a problem with the past of the church.

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.**

Of course, your own past is snow white and lily pure, isn’t it, algebra?

 

[abucs]

Hi Algebra,

also we have to remember that the Catholic Church spans nearly 2000 years. In that time it has been persecuted, maligned and fed to the lions as well as presided over invasions (both ways), wars, plagues, international disputes, new aggressive philosophies, ideological clashes, rival claims to thrones and power, heresies, famines, schisms and more.

It has at different times collected tax, made laws, raised armies, fought for its survival, underwritten and then been challenged by science, sent and supported missionaries, negotiated with Kings and Queens etc.

Powerful institutions attract (and corrupt) people who are addicted to power for their own ends.

It has acted under many extreme situations and has had to deal with a variety of peoples who at times have been going in the wrong direction.

It’s a difficult job.

i think what holds it together is the example and submission to God through living faith in Christ which seems to be what is attracting you. This is the basics that it always comes back to. The church has held together surprisingly well.

The church contains us, people, who at some times have been involved in bad, and many more times good actions.

For example, the church is the number one organisation today that supplies education and charity throughout the world which is a great example although there are also bad ones today also.

Perhaps you can be the source of a good example for others ?
This seems to be the challenge that Jesus has for each of us.

The church has been in the forefront of developing science, and providing education and healthcare down the centuries.

Much of this role has been taken over by secular governments today following the Churches example.

One good thing about that is that a lot of the power which causes problems - military, taxes and making civic laws has also been diminished so that the church can concentrate more on spiritual missionary and being faithful to Christ.

As sister Amy recommends - pray and have confidence that God will guide you in whatever you decide.

My :twocents:

 

[angelusm]

Whilst I accept the teachings of the catholic church, and I love its interpretation of christian scripture.

I have a problem with the past of the church.

I dont understand how the church taught one thing, and then condoned violence and hatred in its name.

In fact the behaviour of the catholic church is so repugnant to me, that I would find it extremely difficult to associate myself with an organisation with such a rabid past.

Yet I am drawn to its teachings.

We all are sinners so don’t expect us to be perfect. I’m afraid you believe in lies spread by those who hate the CC. Make sure that you know the history VERY well before you judge, and make sure you know the Catholic point of view as well.
Even if others make mistakes, you should try to behave properly.
I think it’s time to forgive the CC her mistakes (even though they were not against you) and to stop looking backwards. If you are looking for a religion where people didn’t do anything wrong, you won’t find any. In comparison with others (for example protestants) we have no reason to be ashamed of, believe me.

 

[Sagunta]

I have a problem with the past of the church.

@algebra,

To answer your Q: In my opinion, you’d be well qualified, if your only problem is with what you’ve heard about the past of the Roman Catholic Church.

The simple answer to solve this little problem is knowledge. Allow yourself to get in touch with a more balanced view of the history of the Church, and you’ll qualify with grace

Don’t take my word for it; but that of Dr. Thomas Woods for instance:
“How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization” (2005). Mandatory reading for anyone who suffers from the same problem.

I think that prof. Rodney Stark, not a catholic himself, describes your problem exactly, in the introduction of his book “For the Glory of God” (2001). It’s quite a lengthy quote, but here goes:

"…Having said these agreeable things about my debts to historians, I must also register some of my disappointments. Foremost, of course, are the many efforts to dismiss the role of religion in producing “good” things such as the rise of science or the end of slavery, and the corresponding efforts to blame religion for practically everything “bad.” Of course, I was prepared for this when I began…

What I was NOT prepared for was how many of the historians I read …] expressed militant anti-Catholicism, and how few of their peers have taken exception to the litany of contemptuous, anti-Catholic comments, delivered without any trace of self-consciousness. Of course, no reputable, recent historians actually use such self-incriminating words as “papists,” or “Romanism.” Instead, they substitute intellectualized equivalents such as “enemies of reason,” “benighted scholastics,” “fanatical friars,” and adjectives such as “sinister,” “brutal,” “uncomprehending,” “cruel,” “repressed,” and “totalitarian.”

Far more pernicious, however, are the many silences and omissions that distort scholarly comprehension of important matters. Among the many glaring examples to be revealed is that vigorous efforts by sixteenth-century popes to halt slavery were effectively “lost” from the record until the past decade or so …]
But perhaps the most serious harm is done unintentionally by honorable scholars. Although most living historians are probably not prejudiced against Roman Catholics, or at least not more so than against members of any other faith, most hold false views that they do not know to have been the product of the anti-Catholicism of previous generations. For example, aside from a few specialists, most historians still seem to assume that the Spanish Inquisition burned large numbers of heretics, witches, Marrano Jews, and other deviants in public autos-da-fe, and that to have fallen into the hands of the inquisitors was an almost certain sentence of death. All false!
As will be seen, especially in Chapter 3, Spanish inquisitors seldom had anyone burned, and the typical sentence they meted out was mild in the extreme: for those convicted of witchcraft, in Spain it was usually sufficient to say they were sorry…"

How about that.

Another fine and scholarly sound read is prof. Eamon Duffy’s bestselling “The stripping of the Altars” (2005), or Stark’s “Victory of Reason” (2005). The more you really know about the history of the Catholic Church, the higher it will rank on the long list of reasons to become a Catholic, and you’ll - historically speaking - “enlighten” yourself in the process as well. Don’t expect a rose garden though, just an attempt to grasp the real thing will do nicely.
And remember that famous Homeric adagium: “Once you go Vatican, you won’t go back again!”

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag.

 

[Deconi]

I cant help it, no one faith seems to answer any of my questions, I still have reservations about the man-god thing, except your discussion with me on that helped me to accept that one as plausible.

I guess catholicism does answer many of my questions, but I hate the organisation itself.

I am not for a minute denying the history of The Church, although you have to understand that there is the history that has been attributed to The Church, and the ACTUAL history regarding those events, or the surrounding circumstances of events that you may not be aware of.

Having said that, you should be mindful that if there is a ‘church’ on earth without sinners, then you have found Heaven and no longer need Christ, meaning there is no such thing.

“The Church” that Christ spoke into existence in Matthew 16 remains spotless and without stain, but the sinners who flock to Her seeking solace for their ‘wretchedness’ sometimes forget themselves, once they are rejuvenated by the Grace Promised by Her Founder. !!

Investgative examination and thinking can lead you to The Church, but retention is supernatural, for Christ IS SuperNatural Personified.

You will discover that Peter, was our first Pope! He denied Christ three times! Got told off for falling asleep at The Garden. Got told off for striking the soldier with his sword…etc.

Yet, he was chosen to lead the faith.

Christ left simple sinners in charge, encouraging ALL OF US that no human can fall short of being a member of THAT Church!!

 

[mercygate]

I realise that it is meant to be a passover meal.

Shouldnt it be more “meal” and less “rite”

No. Because it is a heavenly sacrifice. The “rite” ensures that the essential elements are both done and universally understood to be done by those who know the language of the rite, which includes the entire form: words and gestures.

Making it “more” meal (as some have attempted to do in recent decades) has resulted in some pretty bizarre manifestations. It is a sensitive business to keep the balance. But if you lose the sacrificial aspect, you lose the essence of Communion, which is participation in what the author of the letter to the Hebrews calls “the covenant blood.” Losing sight of Calvary, losing sight of the eternal, is fatal to the transmission of this great mystery.

I see that up-thread someone posted a Passover Haggadah. Hah! Just the point. Even though the Passover meal really is a full meal, it is very much a “rite.” The various Haggadahs reflect the various Rites of our many authentic Churches (Latin, Byzantine, Coptic). All have the same elements.

 

[mercygate]

Can a person go to RCIA, even if you are not sure you want to be catholic?

Absolutely! Anybody who wants to learn may attend: no strings attached. You do not need to participate in the rites leading up to baptism/confirmation. You can go just to satisfy your curiosity.

 

[algebra]

The Catholic Church has been the most generous philanthropic organization in history. The case has been made that the Catholic Church built Western Civilization.

Persecution of jews.

Have you ever seen the mission - to see the RCC complicity in the destruction of local cultures.

And a story of the portuguese and the Indian orthodox community whose traditions were directly received from Thomas the apostle.

The Portuguese regarded them as heretics and schismatics who were no better in True Religion than their Hindu neighbours. They had come with cannon and a papal mandate to instruct the inhabitants of the land in the Catholic faith and this included non-Roman Christians. Their arrival and that of the first Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier, in 1542, turned Christianity in India into a violent and destructive political force that continues to operate in the country till today.

After 1502, the Syrian Christians and Roman Catholic Church embarked on a confrontation. It went on for decades and was aggravated by the activities of the Jesuits.** In 1653 a Syrian bishop was burned at the stake at Goa by the Inquisition—which had been invited into the country by Francis Xavier himself.** The confrontation only began to subside with the decline of Portuguese power, as the Pope and the Jesuits were both dependant on Portuguese arms to enforce their will. A compromise was eventually reached between the Catholic Church and the Syrian Christians, and various oriental rite churches came into being.

 

[algebra]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coonan_Cross_Oath

In 1599 under Aleixo de Menezes the Synod of Diamper converted the Syriac Saint Thomas Christians (of the Orthodox faith) to the Roman Catholic Church under the excuse that they allegedly practiced Nestorian heresy. The synod enforced severe restrictions on their faith and the practice of using Syriac/Aramaic. The Kerala Christians of Malabar were independent of Rome. What resulted in it was the persecution of the Syrian Christians of Malabar. They were first made politically insignificant and their Metropolitanate status was discontinued by blocking bishops from the Middle East. There were assassination attempts against Archdeacon George so as to subjugate the entire church under Rome.[dubious – discuss] Even the common prayer book was not spared. Every known item of literature was burnt and any priest professing independence was imprisoned. Some altars were pulled down to make way for altars conforming to Catholic criteria. St. Thomas Christians resentful over these acts later swore the Coonan Cross Oath, severing relations with the Catholic Church. They swore that from that day they nor their children would have any relations with the church of Rome thereby raising the first freedom movement against the western powers in India.[dubious – discuss]

In addition, non-Portuguese Christian missionaries who were in competition with the inquisition were often persecuted even though they were outside the sphere of influence of the inquisition. When the local clergy became jealous of a French priest operating in Madras, they lured him to Goa, then had him arrested and sent to the inquisition. He was saved when the Hindu King of Carnatica (Karnataka) interceded on his behalf, laid siege to St. Thome and demanded the release of the priest.[14]

 

[ralphinal]

algebra,

Thanks for the information. I will study over it before I respond to it specifically.

This may seem like a silly question, but what is it about the Roman Catholic faith that is more attractive to you than Eastern Orthodox?

 

[algebra]

algebra,

Thanks for the information. I will study over it before I respond to it specifically.

This may seem like a silly question, but what is it about the Roman Catholic faith that is more attractive to you than Eastern Orthodox?

Nothing, I am just not very familiar with them

 

[algebra]

Algebra, I think you and I know deep in our hearts what is actually the truth. Try as you might to sugarcoat it, you cannot escape it.

Amy,

If I knew the Truth as you know it, then I would be muslim.

But for me the words of jesus speak truth in christian scripture.

That is the only truth I know, the rest of it - the trinity and such, its plausible, but I cannot say I buy it totally.

 

[ralphinal]

Nothing, I am just not very familiar with them

Understand that I am Roman Catholic and as such I am biased towards being one. But, if the only way that you can be close to God is through the Orthodox, than please look into it.

Without knowing where you are, I cannot say what would be close to you. You might also find home in a non-Latin Rite Catholic Church. Again, there may be one close to you.

The doctrines are very similar, but the Orthodox have a different history. Also, the non-Latin Rite Churches are in union with Rome but have their own past and cultural heritage. Drop me a line and I can give you more information.

 

[katy_kt]

algebra:

Their arrival and that of the first Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier, in 1542, turned Christianity in India into a violent and destructive political force that continues to operate in the country till today.

From where did you get that idea?

 

[algebra]

From where did you get that idea?

I didnt I googled a page, I dont know much about indian christianity.

What I do know is that the conflict between the RCC and the orthodox is rather well documented, even in far away places like india.

 

[katy_kt]

Well that is incorrect. I can not say about the past, but the Christians at present are not at all “a violent and destructive political force”, we are less than 3% of the population.

 

[mercygate]

I didnt I googled a page, I dont know much about indian christianity.

What I do know is that the conflict between the RCC and the orthodox is rather well documented, even in far away places like india.

Generally these things have a lot more to do with politics than with religion. My parish has a HUGE contingent of Indian Catholics from both the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar rites. Get it? SYRO?

 

[algebra]

Generally these things have a lot more to do with politics than with religion. My parish has a HUGE contingent of Indian Catholics from both the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankar rites. Get it? SYRO?

Syro? I am sorry you lost me

 

[algebra]

Well that is incorrect. I can not say about the past, but the Christians at present are not at all “a violent and destructive political force”, we are less than 3% of the population.

Perhaps, many pages have a slant.

But Francis Xavier was responsible for various “inhuman acts” when it came to proselytizing for the RCC in india.

Even when it was against the orthodox populations in the south.