Would it be wrong for a Catholic to do Tai Chi for excercise?

[Robert_Caritas]

I don’t believe the concept of “chi” goes against any Catholic worldview. “Chi” can be felt by anyone, regardless of religion. However, the explanation of it might. Sometimes things that are not fully understand are explained in the context of religion, and naturally it will be explained in the religion of the person trying to explain it. However, it doesn’t automatically follow because someone explains something in the context of their own religion that it suddenly becomes part of that religion; e.g., sorcery that should be shunned by anyone else.

Yes I agree halfways – chi is very real, and it can be felt by anyone. I was cured of something pretty amazingly through acupuncture once, and my kung-fu teacher taught us to project chi in our punches (when you did this, you could feel a punch even through heavy padding). It’s a very real phenomena.

I’m just wondering if learning a science on how to manipulate chi is sorcery. Magic is also very real, we have examples of magicians all throughout the bible (up to the acts of the apostles), but it displeases God for us to practice it. I think that it is a very fine line between chi manipulation and some occult practices. If I had the opportunity to go to an acupuncturist again, I would definitely think twice and pray to try to discern God’s will first.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Yes I agree halfways – chi is very real, and it can be felt by anyone. I was cured of something pretty amazingly through acupuncture once, and my kung-fu teacher taught us to project chi in our punches (when you did this, you could feel a punch even through heavy padding). It’s a very real phenomena.

I’m just wondering if learning a science on how to manipulate chi is sorcery. Magic is also very real, we have examples of magicians all throughout the bible (up to the acts of the apostles), but it displeases God for us to practice it. I think that it is a very fine line between chi manipulation and some occult practices. If I had the opportunity to go to an acupuncturist again, I would definitely think twice and pray to try to discern God’s will first.

If chi can be an energy measurable by science or at least using the very basic principles of scientific inquiry, then exploring it would be no different than when Thomas Edison was exploring electricity.

The occult practices that the Church condemns as ‘magic’ just does not function well under that standard because they are clearly superstitions.

Finally, it all boils down to the basic concept. From what you just said, chi is an energy that can be channeled by anyone. There is no need to pay tribute to a false god. This power is in fact very natural, not supernatural. You might have this mistaken idea that just because something has not been scientifically verified, it means it is not natural in the theological sense.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Where did you get that information from? Certainly not anyone that actually understands Tai Chi. The translation of Tai Ji Chuan is roughly “supreme ultimate fist.” Don’t confuse “Chi” with “Ji;” they have very different meanings…not that either mean what you think they do.

Just do a search on the forum. It’s been covered before.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Just do a search on the forum. It’s been covered before.

Such a search also yields posts showing how such thinking has proven itself ridiculous.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

If chi can be an energy measurable by science or at least using the very basic principles of scientific inquiry, then exploring it would be no different than when Thomas Edison was exploring electricity.

The occult practices that the Church condemns as ‘magic’ just does not function well under that standard because they are clearly superstitions.

Finally, it all boils down to the basic concept. From what you just said, chi is an energy that can be channeled by anyone. There is no need to pay tribute to a false god. This power is in fact very natural, not supernatural. You might have this mistaken idea that just because something has not been scientifically verified, it means it is not natural in the theological sense.

You are mixing up idolatry and magic in that last paragraph. These are two separate things, and God forbids both. Magic is not merely superstitions, but a set of practices that give a person an unnatural power. This is generally very detrimental to the person’s soul – and makes them an instrument of evil, from what I have collected from my limited experience. Magic is real, just as the supernatural is real.

Also, the supernatural is not bad. Prayer is a supernatural activity, and it is one of the best things that a person can do. Angels are supernatural beings. Though the word “supernatural” is a tricky one. I’m defining it is as “what is not of the natural world,” meaning the material world. In this sense, the soul would not be natural, but a supernatural part of our beings. Does this work with how you define “natural” theologically?

Finally, using this definition, since chi cannot be measured scientifically, we have no evidence that it is a natural energy – unlike electricity. Though it is possible that it is, we cannot say for sure. So if it is a supernatural energy (an energy of the spirit for example), maybe trying to influence it consciously would be a form of magic.

As Christians, the only form of supernatural activities that we may do are the gifts of the Spirit. Some people have the gift of healing, of prophecy, of reading hearts, of mystical prayer, etc – but the control is in the Holy Spirit’s hands, not the person. That is a fundamental difference with the magic forbidden by God.

Though to come back to Tai Chi, if the person is doing it as a form of gymnastics it should be fine. I hear that it can be good exercise. What could be dangerous in my opinion is when people go looking for psychic experiences with such an activity, such as chi manipulation.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

So if you want your kid to learn self-defense what are your options, as you see them?
Boxing. what else? YOu gonna put your little girl into a boxing gym? Sounds lovely.

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Actually works. Adopted by everyone in the UFC. Designed by small people to use against larger, more powerful people, using sound scientific principles (balance, leverage and technique) instead of nebulous Asian mysticism. Shake hands before and after a match instead of bowing. Allows a broad range of commensurate responses to aggression, from escape to restraint to control to disabling, which is more ethical. Lots of fun to train, and you do on the mat exactly what you would do on the street - none of this nonsense like “well, if this was a real fight, I would have driven the bones of your nose back into your brain with my Ch’i Strike.” Your kid can take down and control a bully without breaking his nose, so he survives the confrontation with his dignity intact and is less likely to be kicked out of school under zero-tolerance policies.

Designed by Catholics, my friend, the Gracie family of Brazil.

That being said, I think every boy should get some boxing training. Learning to deal with in-your-face aggression is important for a young man, and it’s a good way to develop courage and learn to stand up for your beliefs - if you’ve never been hit before, the fear of being hit by a bully is a lot worse than actually being hit. Learning to deal with aggression in a controlled situation is better than being afraid and bullied, or being hit the first time by a thug. It certainly didn’t hurt St. Paul, who learned pugilism and the pankration (an early form of MMA) as a young man in the Greek gymnastica, and used sports and combative metaphors through the epistles.

I was taught to box by our parish priests in the CYO program. There was a time in this country when most Catholic boys learned to fight that way.

Girls are increasingly becoming interested in boxing but I don’t think most want to do actual boxing training and get hurt. The basics of how to avoid and slip a punch and how to punch effectively are a good thing to learn for girls though, without sparring, as it can be a tough world out there and there are people who won’t act like gentlemen.

 

[ValPal]

Just do a search on the forum. It’s been covered before.

I’m already very familiar with it. The problem with much of what is said about it on this forum is simply personal opinion with no basis or understanding, thus provides no useful information.

 

[ValPal]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Actually works. Adopted by everyone in the UFC. Designed by small people to use against larger, more powerful people, using sound scientific principles (balance, leverage and technique) instead of nebulous Asian mysticism. Shake hands before and after a match instead of bowing. Allows a broad range of commensurate responses to aggression, from escape to restraint to control to disabling, which is more ethical. Lots of fun to train, and you do on the mat exactly what you would do on the street - none of this nonsense like “well, if this was a real fight, I would have driven the bones of your nose back into your brain with my Ch’i Strike.” Your kid can take down and control a bully without breaking his nose, so he survives the confrontation with his dignity intact and is less likely to be kicked out of school under zero-tolerance policies.

Each martial art has it’s pros and cons. BJJ is great for ground fighting or MMA, and one-on-one fighting situations. But if you’re fighting more than one opponent and take someone to the ground, you’ve just lost control of the situation and just put yourself in a very dangerous situation.

Designed by Catholics, my friend, the Gracie family of Brazil.

And based on Japanese martial arts, which has a Shinto element.

If BJJ doesn’t have a Shinto element, it’s another example of my repeated point that it’s the intent that one places on the art that matters, not the intent of what someone else may have had.

That being said, I think every boy should get some boxing training.

Now you’re talking. We do San Shou. Based on Kung Fu, void of the Buddhist element, and designed for the Chinese military.

 

[BroomWagon]

I heard that yoga was bad. But, what about Tai Chi? Here is an interesting article I read that says Tai Chi comes from Taoist principles.

“Many scholars believe the Chinese emperor was responsible for organizing religious Taoism as a political institution to replace Buddhism, which was considered a foreign religion that threatened the existing power structure. In fact, the term “external martial arts” was coined to refer to Shaolin kung fu, which was based on Buddhism and other practices having their roots in India. In contrast, the term “internal martial arts”, which included tai chi chuan, pa kua chang, and hsing-i chuan, was used to refer to those developed within China according to Taoist principles.”

(Religion and martial arts, dotaichi.com/Articles/ReligionandtheMartialArts.htm )

I would be careful in just saying “I heard that yoga was bad”, since there are a number of different disciplines for yoga.

First off, Father J.M. DeChanet wrote the book “Christian Yoga”: amazon.com/Christian-Yoga-J–M-D%C3%A9chanet/dp/0060802456/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350128350&sr=1-1 I think there are a number of Christian Yoga practitioners.

The form of Yoga to be weary of as reported on Relevant Radio which is Catholic Radio is known a**s Kundalini **Yoga.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You are mixing up idolatry and magic in that last paragraph. These are two separate things, and God forbids both. Magic is not merely superstitions, but a set of practices that give a person an unnatural power. This is generally very detrimental to the person’s soul – and makes them an instrument of evil, from what I have collected from my limited experience. Magic is real, just as the supernatural is real.

Sorry, but the Catechism disagrees with you:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

The passages cited do not make any distinction. Unnatural power stems from idolatry by reason that you are invoking something outside yourself. There’s no separating the two.

Also, the supernatural is not bad. Prayer is a supernatural activity, and it is one of the best things that a person can do. Angels are supernatural beings. Though the word “supernatural” is a tricky one. I’m defining it is as “what is not of the natural world,” meaning the material world. In this sense, the soul would not be natural, but a supernatural part of our beings. Does this work with how you define “natural” theologically?

If you want it put simply: The effects of prayer cannot be measured as consistently as the effects of electricity. We can see the benefits of electrical power in our lives. In contrast, you will find many skeptics contest the power of prayer.

Finally, using this definition, since chi cannot be measured scientifically, we have no evidence that it is a natural energy – unlike electricity. Though it is possible that it is, we cannot say for sure. So if it is a supernatural energy (an energy of the spirit for example), maybe trying to influence it consciously would be a form of magic.

That is true but since from your own statement, it would seem that this energy sounds measurable.

As Christians, the only form of supernatural activities that we may do are the gifts of the Spirit. Some people have the gift of healing, of prophecy, of reading hearts, of mystical prayer, etc – but the control is in the Holy Spirit’s hands, not the person. That is a fundamental difference with the magic forbidden by God.

Be careful with this logic because this same ‘fundamental difference’ of yours can be used to condemn electricity. Thomas Edison didn’t invoke the Holy Spirit when he invented the light bulb.

There are many powers and energies within the domain of man. The best part is we actually do not have the whole picture. Every day we continue to research and find ways to provide cleaner energy, improve waste management, and conserve resources.

What could be dangerous in my opinion is when people go looking for psychic experiences with such an activity, such as chi manipulation.

Looking at it from just the basic, logical level. This doesn’t make sense. How can you condemn an action that can be naturally achieved by a human being?

Think about it this way: What if some time in the future, a scientist found a way to activate psychic abilities within people? What if one day, mankind developed ways to develop abilities like those in X-Men or Heroes?

Again, I define this as all natural. If breathing and focus were all you needed to manipulate chi (as it seems popularly understood), then where’s the harm?

 

[Robert_Caritas]

That Catechism passage does not disagree with me. It says that magic is an offense to God. It says that it is a turning away from God. But it is not the worshipping of idols (though it can be mixed with it in certain types of magic from what I know)(though I’m no expert on magic, and hope to not be one).

For me, the main difference between electricity and chi, is that movement of chi is the result of an act of the will (or what you called focus) – whereas electricity can be made by a machine, and I don’t think that machines can be guilty of practicing magic.

It takes a lot of training to learn it. And it takes occult knowledge to practice magic. You seem to think that magic isn’t real though, and that if something is real, then it is natural. Well, magic is real and unnatural – most people could learn how to do it, but it would be a grave offense against God.

About the X-men powers, well, that is science fiction, and mankind will very probably never develop such powers. Nevertheless, many people have been given X-men like powers from God: levitation, bi-location, healing, the reading of hearts, being able to fast forever, having visions of the future… These people were saints though, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

So an X-men scenario is impossible, but a scenario in which God gives supernatural gifts to his best followers so that they can serve him better, is very possible!

But in any case, I can’t be 100% sure that manipulating chi is bad, and I don’t think that we’ll be able to figure it out here. To be sure, we should pray on it, and see what God tells us. Will developing these techniques serve his greater Glory, or will they just give mankind another way of empowering himself?

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Each martial art has it’s pros and cons. BJJ is great for ground fighting or MMA, and one-on-one fighting situations. But if you’re fighting more than one opponent and take someone to the ground, you’ve just lost control of the situation and just put yourself in a very dangerous situation.

If you’re fighting more than one opponent, don’t try to go to the ground. You’ll probably get mobbed and taken there anyway, but hey, it’s a fight. I don’t plan to have a car accident, but I still have insurance and safety belts. In the real world, ground grappling happens.

And based on Japanese martial arts, which has a Shinto element.

If BJJ doesn’t have a Shinto element, it’s another example of my repeated point that it’s the intent that one places on the art that matters, not the intent of what someone else may have had.

Absolutely.

Now you’re talking. We do San Shou. Based on Kung Fu, void of the Buddhist element, and designed for the Chinese military.

Good style.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

That Catechism passage does not disagree with me. It says that magic is an offense to God. It says that it is a turning away from God. But it is not the worshipping of idols (though it can be mixed with it in certain types of magic from what I know)(though I’m no expert on magic, and hope to not be one).

It is still invoking powers outside of oneself which ties it with idolatry. Hence, there is reason why this passage falls under CCC’s section on the Ten Commandments.

For me, the main difference between electricity and chi, is that movement of chi is the result of an act of the will (or what you called focus) – whereas electricity can be made by a machine, and I don’t think that machines can be guilty of practicing magic.

This does not make any logical sense at all. So just because it’s a machine that produces energy, it gets a free pass? Your body already produces energy. Surely you would not call that energy occult. Each time you breathe, eat, or walk, you are already using your will to exercise your biological energy.

You are forgetting that there is in fact a theologically neutral element to energy. Again, from your description, chi falls under that neutrality.

It takes a lot of training to learn it. And it takes occult knowledge to practice magic. You seem to think that magic isn’t real though, and that if something is real, then it is natural. Well, magic is real and unnatural – most people could learn how to do it, but it would be a grave offense against God.

Your logic is constantly erroneous. Just because it takes training to learn it doesn’t mean it is occult. I train myself to focus on my job. Does that mean I’m practicing the occult?

I repeat: The occult requires a force outside man’s domain. If man could control it as it could control electricity, then it is not supernatural. The supernatural examples you’ve cited so far all point to beings outside man’s influence. Unlike energy, supernatural forces are not simply mindless tools to be wielded.

About the X-men powers, well, that is science fiction, and mankind will very probably never develop such powers. Nevertheless, many people have been given X-men like powers from God: levitation, bi-location, healing, the reading of hearts, being able to fast forever, having visions of the future… These people were saints though, and filled with the Holy Spirit.

I really hate to say this but you are being very naive. You will find many who will testify that extraordinary ability does not necessarily have faith as a prerequisite.

That’s the thing with the X-Men scenario. And if you’ve watched Stan Lee’s latest gig on TV, you might even consider the possibility of our kind developing even more abilities in the future. I mean, you never know just how far the human body can go.

You do have one very valid point: Pride. Power can tempt one towards pride.

But as Ben Parker said: With great power comes great responsibility.

 

[Kasmalim]

Chi, prana, and the Jewish ruach are all the same thing. I’d be highly suspicious about any practice which includes manipulating this energy. Although all living things naturally have this energy it has absolutely nothing to do with our Catholic faith.

Also it is deeply rooted in all kinds of eastern religions and occult practices. What do they use it for? Everything from healing, to remotely killing their enemies. Though, the Chinese and Tibetans themselves regard it as an energy not so different than electricity. They don’t think of it as magic - although I’ve read they use it for that as well - but from our standpoint that’s what it seems to be.

But look at it this way - once a person starts learning how to use chi, he’ll probably want to learn more and more; if he’s not careful, all his beliefs will become enmeshed in false beliefs which have nothing to do with Christianity - which is what happened to some Jews. The reason for the is that chi is rooted in Daosim, prana is rooted so deeply into Hinduism that it’s impossible to tell what’s pure prana practice and what’s Hinduism, and ruach into Judaism and also the Vedic religion (that’s probably where they learned about prana/ruach), believe it or not. Hebrew happens to have several vedic/sanskrit roots. Jews believe in an energy exactly like prana. Jews also believe in reincarnation - which is nowhere in the OT. This is no coincidence. As a matter of fact, Jewish Kabbalah is hardly different to Daoism (Keter = Dao, for example). In my opinion, if the Jews weren’t influenced by these beliefs, theirs would be a religion quite different than the one today.

A Christian who starts practicing any of this stuff is a stepping stone away from shattering his true beliefs.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Chi, prana, and the Jewish ruach are all the same thing. I’d be highly suspicious about any practice which includes manipulating this energy. Although all living things naturally have this energy it has absolutely nothing to do with our Catholic faith.

The rest of your post is based on this assertion but you do not even care to elaborate or defend its glaring logical inconsistency.

If it is as natural as electricity, then why is it sinful and electricity is not? You can kill with electricity too you know.

 

[BroomWagon]

Watched a show on Tai Chi on Veria TV, dish channel 218.

They have a lot of shows where they help someone lose weight.

So, they went into a class with this person.

I thought it looked okay but I’m not about to try it or too interested in it, the fact, it has been discussed here made me interested to see it.

I’m not following this thread real closely but it seems exercise is often about energy, those lifting weights trying to get more muscle, etc.

And not sure, there are certainly a number of Christian Yoga followers. Father DeChanet wrote the definitive “Christian Yoga” shortly after World War II. Some of his observations are interesting certainly. I’ve been thinking I might take something from that book and make a thread of it here.

 

[BroomWagon]

I don’t believe the concept of “chi” goes against any Catholic worldview. “Chi” can be felt by anyone, regardless of religion. However, the explanation of it might. Sometimes things that are not fully understand are explained in the context of religion, and naturally it will be explained in the religion of the person trying to explain it. However, it doesn’t automatically follow because someone explains something in the context of their own religion that it suddenly becomes part of that religion; e.g., sorcery that should be shunned by anyone else.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChiRunning

Chi Running and Chi walking nowadays… you run from the core, the stomach. I couldn’t really follow the book and do it right but it probably makes some sense. Maybe if I followed it more.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

They shouldn’t. The Chi is a universal life force energy given the qualities of creator and healer. Qualities Christians reserve for God, the Father of Jesus Christ. The next question to ask is; if it’s not God, what is it?

Much of what the Chinese call “chi” is extremaly allegorical explanations of “balance, timing, precision, leverage etc…” that have NOTHING to do with any bio-mystical “force” (“my midichlorians are out of whack!” )

 

[TimeEntrance]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Actually works. Adopted by everyone in the UFC. Designed by small people to use against larger, more powerful people, using sound scientific principles (balance, leverage and technique) instead of nebulous Asian mysticism. Shake hands before and after a match instead of bowing. Allows a broad range of commensurate responses to aggression, from escape to restraint to control to disabling, which is more ethical. Lots of fun to train, and you do on the mat exactly what you would do on the street - none of this nonsense like “well, if this was a real fight, I would have driven the bones of your nose back into your brain with my Ch’i Strike.” Your kid can take down and control a bully without breaking his nose, so he survives the confrontation with his dignity intact and is less likely to be kicked out of school under zero-tolerance policies.

Designed by Catholics, my friend, the Gracie family of Brazil.

That being said, I think every boy should get some boxing training. Learning to deal with in-your-face aggression is important for a young man, and it’s a good way to develop courage and learn to stand up for your beliefs - if you’ve never been hit before, the fear of being hit by a bully is a lot worse than actually being hit. Learning to deal with aggression in a controlled situation is better than being afraid and bullied, or being hit the first time by a thug. It certainly didn’t hurt St. Paul, who learned pugilism and the pankration (an early form of MMA) as a young man in the Greek gymnastica, and used sports and combative metaphors through the epistles.

I was taught to box by our parish priests in the CYO program. There was a time in this country when most Catholic boys learned to fight that way.

Girls are increasingly becoming interested in boxing but I don’t think most want to do actual boxing training and get hurt. The basics of how to avoid and slip a punch and how to punch effectively are a good thing to learn for girls though, without sparring, as it can be a tough world out there and there are people who won’t act like gentlemen.

Awesome post, Arizona Mike. I agree with much of what you’ve said.

Although, while I’m an admire of the Gracie Family and BJJ, I think we should recognize too that MMA has had its effect on BJJ players that enter MMA. Today, in that genre of sports combat you have to be more than just a grappler.

I’d also take a different view of TMA (Traditional Martial Arts) than you. I think many - not all - TMA’s have a lot to offer in terms of real life combat where BJJ or MMA may be lacking.

For example, I don’t advise anyone to go to the ground when being attacked by two, three, or more people. I also know from personal experience - even after having received novice boxing instruction - that a real life attack can come under low visibility, include sticks, or thrown bricks, all while being closed in on from different angles.

I read a short book excerpt written by an experienced Corrections Officer in a U.S. prison… that no martial arts or boxing can prepare you for all settings or environmental conditions. He gave the example of fighting in a shower room naked or entering a bathroom with human blood on the floor making it slippery. I’ve often asked myself how I would respond and engage if assaulted on a moving public bus, or seated in a tight position on a very crowded bus.

Personally, I think pagan and Catholic dominated FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) has a lot to offer. Although, the Doce Pare system I trained in (named in part after a legend of 12 bodyguards of Catholic Charlemagne, and in part after the the systems Filipino founders) appears to me to have adapted their stick techniques to the end of machete combat, because the stick battles are too close. The Muslim dominate Silat has something to offer too. At least one style from Brunei.

(I think FMA teaches how to grapple on the ground with a knife and/or when your opponent on the ground has a knife - BJJ doesn’t)

Tai Chi is good for those it helps physically. But I personally don’t regard it much for real life combat.

This is how some Muslims get down in the 21st Century: youtube.com/watch?v=NLx0PYvvxJ0

This is how some Catholics get down in the 21st Century in the so-called “War on Terrorism”: http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYTfb1gJf0Q (the sticks represent machetes).

Filipino Marines again but with knife and real machete: youtube.com/watch?v=GvD0ebc1MAE

 

[TimeEntrance]

Oh, a question Arizona Mike, how do you know St. Paul trained in and was skilled in Greek Pankration?

What if Jesus was skilled in this supposedly ancient Hebrew martial art? Video: youtube.com/watch?v=syHyD8aPpkA