Would it matter in the END?

[Jubilarian]

Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?

Why the fuss? We will spend much more time in eternity than on earth. Keep in mind this is only a question, I do think truths should be explained, simply for clarity.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?

Why the fuss? We will spend much more time in eternity than on earth. Keep in mind this is only a question, I do think truths should be explained, simply for clarity.

There is something to be said for living in Spirit and Truth, at least while on this earth. Catholic believe living in faith means living Liturgically all the time, not just a Sunday or Church-building or when 2or3 are gathered with a Bible activity.

 

[OraLabora]

Both Catholics and Protestants receive the gift of Grace through baptism. What one does with that Grace is another matter. Some Protestants take that Grace and run with it and truly go through inner conversion to Christ and through God’s mercy are probably saved. Some Catholics receive that Grace and reject it or ignore it and set themselves well down the road to eternal damnation.

By virtue of the Church holding the entire deposit of Truth, it should theoretically be easier for a Catholic to sustain his or her inner conversion, but the sad reality of our fallen nature often means we don’t. Yet some Protestants even with the adversity of being in a ecclesial community that only possesses a part of the Truth, manage against all odds to conform their lives to Christ. They are saved through the Church though, because those bits of the Truth that their ecclesial communities possess came from the Church that Christ founded.

So it isn’t entirely an issue of being Catholic or being Protestant. It’s a matter of finding God’s plan for you and sticking with it, sustained by Grace. Being Catholic isn’t automatic salvation, and being Protestant isn’t automatic damnation.

Think of it like this. Two people are driving alone through the desert and the fan belt breaks on each one’s jeep. The Catholic is prepared and possesses a full tool kit that includes a spare fan belt. He repairs his jeep and can drive off at normal speed, confident he can make it safely to his destination. The Protestant has a few tools, but no spare fan belt. He manages to rig up a temporary solution with a piece of rope he found. He can still make it out of the desert IF he’s careful, doesn’t drive too fast, stops often to check the repair and tighten the rope… and prays a lot. The Catholic’s tool kit includes the sanctifying grace distributed through worthy partaking of all 7 of the sacraments. The Protestant’s tool kit includes maybe one or two sacraments, but is missing the rest. (S)he faces a much tougher task.

Now take a Catholic and a Protestant again in the same situation, but the Catholic left his toolbox at home (i.e. he’s ignored or rejected the gift of Grace). The Protestant, with his incomplete tool kit may, if extremely careful, be able to make it. The Catholic will die of thirst.

Ultimately all will depend on God’s mercy. The doomed Catholic may get a second chance (someone else drives by to rescue him or in real life will have a really good health scare), and hopefully will learn to not leave the tools at home next time. The Protestant’s rope may break and fall off further down the road if he doesn’t stop to check and tighten it frequently, and end up in the same predicament as the Catholic who left his tools at home, and may or may not get a second chance.

Because we may not get a second chance with the gift we’ve been given, it behooves us, Catholic or Protestant, to do the best with what we’ve been given.

 

[Abu]

Jubilarian #1
Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?

Why the fuss?

How trite – the flavour of the age!

Did God the Son, the Christ, teach that it doesn’t matter, or much ado about nothing? Why did Jesus go to enormous lengths to build His own Church on St Peter and give Him His own authority to teach on faith and morals to the whole of humanity, and suffer and be crucified to redeem mankind from the effects of Original Sin, if it didn’t matter to Him?

**For the Christ made all four promises to St Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

**The Christ gave St Peter Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Thus real Catholics offer the world the opportunity to be saved by following Jesus of Nazareth as He mandated, with all seven sacraments and His Church to teach, rule and sanctify.

 

[Jubilarian]

How trite – the flavour of the age!

Did God the Son, the Christ, teach that it doesn’t matter, or much ado about nothing? Why did Jesus go to enormous lengths to build His own Church on St Peter and give Him His own authority to teach on faith and morals to the whole of humanity, and suffer and be crucified to redeem mankind from the effects of Original Sin, if it didn’t matter to Him?

**For the Christ made all four promises to St Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

**The Christ gave St Peter Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Thus real Catholics offer the world the opportunity to be saved by following Jesus of Nazareth as He mandated, with all seven sacraments and His Church to teach, rule and sanctify.

You convieniently left of the rest of post. I clarified that truths must be taught.

Secondly, are you telling me Protestants can’t or aren’t “saved” from eternal damnation because they don’t participate in the sacraments? Im not prepared to make that judgment, Are you? Yes, “strengthen your bretheren”, your seperated bretheren are Protestants.

Of course what Jesus taught matters, the question is, does a different interpretation of scripture and a Christ like Protestant life lived effect a Catholic and Protestant differently into eternity?

Do you see Catholics telling Protestants they are going to hell?

.

 

[Abu]

Jubilarian #5
You convieniently left of the rest of post. I clarified that truths must be taught.

The crux of the matter is WHAT is taught as “truths” – as the Sacred Scriptures teach:
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

The reality here is concerning the truths of the Catholic Church which Christ established on St Peter as His Supreme Vicar and His Apostles, sending the Holy Spirit as He promised: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

Thus, from the first, the faithful “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42).

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.” (2 Tim 1:13-14). Again St Paul writes: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2).

In Colossians 2: 4-23, St Paul calls on his flock to follow Christ “as you were taught” and warns against merely “human precepts and teachings.”

1 Cor 1:10: I urge you brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn 4:6).

Secondly, are you telling me Protestants can’t or aren’t “saved” from eternal damnation because they don’t participate in the sacraments?

She is the only means of salvation provided by Christ and those who come to see this will ensure their assent to Her teaching and join in Her sacrificial worship and Her sacraments for their salvation. Those who don’t yet see this MAY be saved by following their conscience in endeavoring to know and follow the will of God; some will come home, or return, to Christ’s Church – which means that culpable ignorance or rejection do not suffice. Once anyone knows what Christ wants through His Church they have the free choice to follow Him, or to reject Him with the inevitable consequences.

Why should anyone willfully want to deny Christ’s teaching for their salvation?

 

[Jubilarian]

“Culpable ignorance” , I see. Only God can judge that, not you or I.

You quoted a lot of important scripture verses but did as I thought, and that is not to go so far as to say Protestants are going to hell. Why not? My original point remains salient.

 

[Abu]

Jubilarian #7
“Culpable ignorance” , I see. Only God can judge that, not you or I.

That is precisely why your feelings are wrong as there is the reality of culpable ignorance – and God knows who is guilty.

You quoted a lot of important scripture verses but did as I thought, and that is not to go so far as to say Protestants are going to hell. Why not? My original point remains salient.

There us nothing “salient” about confusion and error precisely because Christ’s Church gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God and teaches that it is very important NOT to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).

But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Christ and His Church’s Scriptures teach us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

Additionally:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

That is how truth is known from error, and real Catholics listen to Christ Himself: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

 

[Vico]

Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?

Why the fuss? We will spend much more time in eternity than on earth. Keep in mind this is only a question, I do think truths should be explained, simply for clarity.

Baltimore Catechism (Excerpt)
**** 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?*

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

…
If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult.
…
jimmyakin.com/the-baltimore-catechism-lesson-11

 

[Jubilarian]

That is precisely why your feelings are wrong as there is the reality of culpable ignorance – and God knows who is guilty.
There us nothing “salient” about confusion and error precisely because Christ’s Church gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God and teaches that it is very important NOT to judge a person’s guilt before God as commanded (Mt 7:1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).

But it is vital to follow the command to judge all actions, speech, writing against truth and in this way we can help others by offering truth.

Christ and His Church’s Scriptures teach us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

Additionally:
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

That is how truth is known from error, and real Catholics listen to Christ Himself: “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).

Another response that avoids the real question. Tell me in you next response if Protestants are going to hell. You keep attacking me because I asked a question.

I know the church speaks the truth from scripture. Saying “god knows who is guilty” to empower yourself is a tired old tactic.

 

[Jubilarian]

Baltimore Catechism (Excerpt)
**** 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?*

A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

…
If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult.
…
jimmyakin.com/the-baltimore-catechism-lesson-11

But can you say with certainty the most Protestants " know the Church to be true?"

May people are a product of what they are born into as well. Maybe you are Catholic because you were born into a Catholic family.

 

[Vico]

But can you say with certainty the most Protestants " know the Church to be true?"

May people are a product of what they are born into as well. Maybe you are Catholic because you were born into a Catholic family.

You seek to quantify their knowing? That information is not available. Most important is “never committed during his whole life a mortal sin”.

The Baltimore Catechism addressed that:Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never — even in the past — had the slightest doubt of that fact — what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult.

 

[Jubilarian]

You seek to quantify their knowing? That information is not available. Most important is “never committed during his whole life a mortal sin”.

The Baltimore Catechism addressed that:Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never — even in the past — had the slightest doubt of that fact — what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult.

I don’t doubt that some Protestants may know that the Catholic Church is the truth, but they remain in their ways for various reasons. Some are absolutely convinced that the Church is wrong. These two scenarios can be known .

Do you see the CC telling Protestants they are on the road to hell? They are called good Christian people by the majority of Catholics.

I understand what the Baltimore Catechism is saying. And that is that since Protestants don’t participate in the sacrament of confession, any mortal sin would put their salvation in jeopardy. I don’t think its too much for me to say that many Protestants have committed a mortal sin, along with many Catholics.

I thought however that if you committed a mortal sin and were unable to confess it before you died, hell was your destiny. The BC seems to be making some possible exceptions.

 

[GetUp]

I agree with what OraLabora wrote. We don’t know who is going to be saved or not but we believe that the Church and the sacraments have been instituted by god to help us in our life of faith. Why the fuss? Because we love our brothers and care for them.

I thought however that if you committed a mortal sin and were unable to confess it before you died, hell was your destiny. The BC seems to be making some possible exceptions.

Again, we don’t know who is going to be saved or not. Our reason tells us that we should go to hell if we have committed a mortal sin and didn’t go to confession but God is above our reason so we can never be sure about anything.

 

[Jubilarian]

I’ve never really seen Catholics, even here on this forum , tell Protestants they were on the road to hell. That could be said to a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon possibly, but not a Lutheran or Baptist for example. Most would be hard pressed to even say if Luther , being a heretic that lead many away from the truths of the church, faced eternal punishment.

 

[Abu]

Jubilarian #10
Another response that avoids the real question. Tell me in you next response if Protestants are going to hell.

1. Avoiding the real answers from Christ’s Church is a cop out as in post #6 you were shown that:
   “She is the only means of salvation provided by Christ and those who come to see this will ensure their assent to Her teaching and join in Her sacrificial worship and Her sacraments for their salvation. Those who don’t yet see this MAY be saved by following their conscience in endeavoring to know and follow the will of God; some will come home, or return, to Christ’s Church – which means that culpable ignorance does not suffice. Once anyone knows what Christ wants through His Church they have the free choice to follow Him, or to reject Him with the inevitable consequences.”

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).

This is not to say that the maxim is false. Properly understood, it is quite true. The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

1. Now answer this:
   Why did Jesus go to enormous lengths to build His own Church on St Peter and give Him His own authority to teach on faith and morals to the whole of humanity, and suffer and be crucified to redeem mankind from the effects of Original Sin, and to open the gates of heaven, if it didn’t matter to God?

 

[manualman]

Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?

If we all were aboard a sinking ship and God sent a rescue boat to pick up survivors and carrying them to shore, your question amounts to “What’s the difference if we ride the rescue boat or swim to shore as long as we make it there?”

No difference at all IF you make it there. But God gave us the Church and the Sacraments to assist us. We’re lousy swimmers. Repudiating God’s gift and trying to make it ashore yourself sure ain’t improving your odds of getting there!

 

[Jubilarian]

I get that. I just don’t hear Catholics telling Protestants, even after a lengthy discussion, that they are going to hell.

 

[Jubilarian]

1. Avoiding the real answers from Christ’s Church is a cop out as in post #6 you were shown that:
   “She is the only means of salvation provided by Christ and those who come to see this will ensure their assent to Her teaching and join in Her sacrificial worship and Her sacraments for their salvation. Those who don’t yet see this MAY be saved by following their conscience in endeavoring to know and follow the will of God; some will come home, or return, to Christ’s Church – which means that culpable ignorance does not suffice. Once anyone knows what Christ wants through His Church they have the free choice to follow Him, or to reject Him with the inevitable consequences.”

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus (literally, “outside the Church, there is no salvation”). Some people have wished to understand this saying in the most literal sense: that is, that the person who is not formally a practicing Catholic cannot be saved. The Church has condemned such an interpretation (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).

This is not to say that the maxim is false. Properly understood, it is quite true. The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

1. Now answer this:
   Why did Jesus go to enormous lengths to build His own Church on St Peter and give Him His own authority to teach on faith and morals to the whole of humanity, and suffer and be crucified to redeem mankind from the effects of Original Sin, and to open the gates of heaven, if it didn’t matter to God?

Again, i never said it doesn’t matter. I simply asked the question, DOES IT MATTER?

You fell into an emotional knee jerk response. Yes, scripture shows Catholics the truth. I see a ton of debating between Cathokics and Protestants but rarely if ever does a Catholic tell a Protestant that their salvation is in jeopardy.

In certainly goes the other way though.

 

[manualman]

I get that. I just don’t hear Catholics telling Protestants, even after a lengthy discussion, that they are going to hell.

Because you CAN’T tell a guy in the water that he will drown before he reaches shore. It can happen.

But it’s still smarter to climb into the lifeboat!