Would it matter in the END?

[Jubilarian]

Then there are a lot of “good Protestant Christians” that “love The Lord” that never get in the lifeboat.

 

[OraLabora]

Then there are a lot of “good Protestant Christians” that “love The Lord” that never get in the lifeboat.

And many, many Catholics that jump out of it because they think they can do it all on their own…

 

[Vico]

I don’t doubt that some Protestants may know that the Catholic Church is the truth, but they remain in their ways for various reasons. Some are absolutely convinced that the Church is wrong. These two scenarios can be known .

Do you see the CC telling Protestants they are on the road to hell? They are called good Christian people by the majority of Catholics.

I understand what the Baltimore Catechism is saying. And that is that since Protestants don’t participate in the sacrament of confession, any mortal sin would put their salvation in jeopardy. I don’t think its too much for me to say that many Protestants have committed a mortal sin, along with many Catholics.

I thought however that if you committed a mortal sin and were unable to confess it before you died, hell was your destiny. The BC seems to be making some possible exceptions.

There must be contrition for forgivness. Where the contrition is imperfect the sacrament of penance is necessary for the baptized, therefore salvation becomes dubious. The Catechism has:“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
​

 

[Monica4316]

God gave us Sacraments for salvation and its still possible to It does matter because we get graces for salvation through the Church in the Sacraments… When I was Protestant I missed out on much and eventually God lead me to Catholicism.

 

[TxGodfollower]

I continue to be amazed at how both sides in general say the other is saved/can be saved, but load it up with more rules than the Pharisees could think up, and wash their hands of the matter.

 

[Jubilarian]

I continue to be amazed at how both sides in general say the other is saved/can be saved, but load it up with more rules than the Pharisees could think up, and wash their hands of the matter.

You have a personal relationship with Christ because you were made aware of him through the Catholic Church. In addition protestants differ amongst each other.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I haven’t reached THE END yet so I cannot say for sure. I personally believe if you have a personal relationship with God you are okay as long as you didn’t commit mortal sins like murder over and over. Will be judged on how good a Catholic we were or how good a protestant we were or how we lived our lives?

 

[Abu]

7 Sorrows #27
Will be judged on how good a Catholic we were or how good a protestant we were or how we lived our lives?

We will be judged on how true we are to our conscience in doing good and avoiding evil, in following the opportunities we had to know and follow Christ through His Church in living His truths.

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Singulari Quidem, 1863 A.D.). Hence, Pius IX distinguished between those who have knowledge of the Church and Her divine foundation, and those who have no such knowledge due to a number of mitigating circumstances.

Thus, just as without Christ there is no salvation, so without the Church there is no salvation. Catechism of the Catholic Church # 846 - # 848]. The Catholic Church, regardless of whether or not a person knows of its divine origin and founding, is the body through which ALL salvation comes to anyone whom God deems worthy to receive it.

“Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.” (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, 14). And only God can judge the guilt of a particular person.

 

[benhur]

I don’t doubt that some Protestants may know that the Catholic Church is the truth, but they remain in their ways for various reasons. Some are absolutely convinced that the Church is wrong. These two scenarios can be known .

Do you see the CC telling Protestants they are on the road to hell? They are called good Christian people by the majority of Catholics.

I understand what the Baltimore Catechism is saying. And that is that since Protestants don’t participate in the sacrament of confession, any mortal sin would put their salvation in jeopardy. I don’t think its too much for me to say that many Protestants have committed a mortal sin, along with many Catholics.

I thought however that if you committed a mortal sin and were unable to confess it before you died, hell was your destiny. The BC seems to be making some possible exceptions.

Yes , the big conundrum. On one hand Vat 2 now calls us “others” brothers, having grace and salvation, howbeit thru CC. It is like the old hardliners of no salvation outside of Rome, and yes all others go tot hell are appeased by saying Lutherans and Baptist and all “other” churches can go to heaven but only because of Catholic Church.

To offset or confuse the issue is the other doctrine /teaching that if one is 100 % ignorant of Catholic truth they are ok , but if not…This is "new’’. In the early church you were a brother or not. There were no half truth “brothers”.

So one person must go to confession, and believe in Real Presence and participate yearly, and believe in her Assumption and Immaculateness etc. to be in good graces for heaven, while another does not have to. So what is the motivation , or effectiveness, efficaciousness of your differing doctrine/rites/practices is the logical question. As you state, maybe Catholics have “fuller” truth now, but that is just a comparatively short time in view of what all saints will know and be forever and ever.

Is the warning by CC of hell for being outside of “Rome” hollow barking or does it indeed have teeth to it?

What you are suggesting was at one time an anathema , I think(Trent) . Not sure.

 

[benhur]

And many, many Catholics that jump out of it because they think they can do it all on their own…

Indeed, or they discover what it really means to trust in Christ alone, for all other ground is sinking sand.

 

[benhur]

You have a personal relationship with Christ because you were made aware of him through the Catholic Church. In addition protestants differ amongst each other.

Actually they might say they were made aware of Him thru “another” church, whose foundation is a Catholic Church that was once more like they are now.

 

[benhur]

I get that. I just don’t hear Catholics telling Protestants, even after a lengthy discussion, that they are going to hell.

Perhaps if they were *more *assured of their own heavenly destination they would be *more *sure of a Protestants destination.

 

[benhur]

When I was Protestant I missed out on much and eventually God lead me to Catholicism.

And many would say vice versa.

 

[benhur]

Again, i never said it doesn’t matter. I simply asked the question, DOES IT MATTER?

You fell into an emotional knee jerk response. Yes, scripture shows Catholics the truth. I see a ton of debating between Cathokics and Protestants but rarely if ever does a Catholic tell a Protestant that their salvation is in jeopardy.

In certainly goes the other way though.

It is a sticky business. The proof is in the pudding. I dare say you can’t tell a baptist from lutheran from a catholic on any given week day, be they on fire or luke warm ( all churches have their ranges within their congregations) . You can’t tell if one had a real presence communion and the other a symbolic one. You can’t tell if one confessed to a priest and one not. You can’t even tell if one is holy due to His influence or just being "religious’ in name only… So, I can not be dogamtic in confining God’s saving graces to any one denomination (Catholicism included).

 

[Abu]

benhur #29
Yes , the big conundrum. On one hand Vat 2 now calls us “others” brothers, having grace and salvation, howbeit thru CC. It is like the old hardliners of no salvation outside of Rome, and yes all others go tot hell are appeased by saying Lutherans and Baptist and all “other” churches can go to heaven but only because of Catholic Church.

To offset or confuse the issue is the other doctrine /teaching that if one is 100 % ignorant of Catholic truth they are ok , but if not…This is "new’’. In the early church you were a brother or not. There were no half truth “brothers”.

False – see post #16:
“It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

In reality, those who ridiculed the Catholic Church were those who deformed Christ’s Church and lost the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the treasure of the Holy Eucharist, as well as the doctrinal teaching safeguarded by the Magisterium established by Christ.

Further, Christ established His Church: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18) and gave no one else any authority to speak against Her teaching. The Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:16). Why ignore St Paul also?

So as is evident, all salvation comes through the Catholic Church whether one knows it or not.

 

[benhur]

False – see post #16:
“It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

In reality, those who ridiculed the Catholic Church were those who deformed Christ’s Church and lost the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the treasure of the Holy Eucharist, as well as the doctrinal teaching safeguarded by the Magisterium established by Christ.

Further, Christ established His Church: “You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18) and gave no one else any authority to speak against Her teaching. The Church is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:16). Why ignore St Paul also?

So as is evident, all salvation comes through the Catholic Church whether one knows it or not.

Not sure what you say is false?

 

[Abu]

benhur #36
Not sure what you say is false?

No wonder!

#29
To offset or confuse the issue is the other doctrine /teaching that if one is 100 % ignorant of Catholic truth they are ok , but if not…This is "new’’. In the early church you were a brother or not. There were no half truth “brothers”.

False, as Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” *Catholic Apologetics Today, *1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

But further, St Justin in about 150 A.D. wrote that those who lived according to the Logos, even if considered atheists such as Socrates and Heraclitus, could be considered Christians. [Op.cit. p 146].

 

[TxGodfollower]

Pope St Clement knew that non-Catholics could be saved from the beginning, for he wrote in about 95 A.D. to the Church in Corinth: “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.” Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

How do you get non-Catholic salvation from that quote? Those that receive salvation from Christ are Christians; the quote makes no distinction Catholic or not.

 

[Jubilarian]

Actually they might say they were made aware of Him thru “another” church, whose foundation is a Catholic Church that was once more like they are now.

All the rationalization in the world can’t change the fact that the Catholic Church gave you , me and the whole world the bible. Unless one wants to argue that the Holy
Spirit somehow got involved with the wrong church.

 

[TxGodfollower]

All the rationalization in the world can’t change the fact that the Catholic Church gave you , me and the whole world the bible. Unless one wants to argue that the Holy
Spirit somehow got involved with the wrong church.

That argument only holds if one agrees that the early church from day 1 was Catholic.