Would it matter in the END?

[Abu]

TxGodfollower #38
How do you get non-Catholic salvation from that quote? Those that receive salvation from Christ are Christians; the quote makes no distinction Catholic or not.

Since they were aliens to God, “St Justin is saying that even before the Incarnation those who followed the Divine Word could speak to men – to Jews through the prophets and to outsiders in a purely interior way.” Catholic Apologetics Today, p 146].

As St Paul teaches in Romans 2:14-16: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” [op.cit. p 146].

As the Christ founded only His Catholic Church, the reality is that salvation comes only through Her – "the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:16), and no other sect.

 

[Jubilarian]

That argument only holds if one agrees that the early church from day 1 was Catholic.

No. It holds because the Catholic Church gave you the bible. Outside of several books that reformation ripped out, you are reading the same revelation of Jesus Christ, as given to you by the CC.

Unless you want to argue that the Holy Spirit mistakenly used Catholics. How else would you know of Christ if there was no bible for you as a Protestant to hold to?

 

[Jubilarian]

And many would say vice versa.

What was God doing all those years before the reformation? There can only be one church with one truth. Protestantism does not offer that.

 

[spedteacherita]

I agree with what OraLabora wrote. We don’t know who is going to be saved or not but we believe that the Church and the sacraments have been instituted by god to help us in our life of faith. Why the fuss? Because we love our brothers and care for them.

Again, we don’t know who is going to be saved or not. Our reason tells us that we should go to hell if we have committed a mortal sin and didn’t go to confession but God is above our reason so we can never be sure about anything.

I realize that the above quote also takes Catholics being saved, as well but since most of this conversation has dealt with the salvation of Protestants outside of the Catholic Church and its sacraments. Do you all believe that every Catholic who practices a sacramental life is saved? As with Protestants I’m sure that there are some within the Catholic faith who may not be saved…

As far as Protestant confession, I can confess my sins to Jesus myself and receive His absolution. If I commit a sin I know that is serious (what Catholics deem as a mortal sin) I confess this to another Christian - and maybe even my Pastor - and again, I am absolved through the Lord Jesus Christ. Through my baptism and Holy Communion I received the grace and forgiveness for my sin.

 

[spedteacherita]

I’ve never really seen Catholics, even here on this forum , tell Protestants they were on the road to hell. That could be said to a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon possibly, but not a Lutheran or Baptist for example. Most would be hard pressed to even say if Luther , being a heretic that lead many away from the truths of the church, faced eternal punishment.

No, I don’t believe that Luther will experience hell. He was a very devout Christian…loved the Lord with all his heart.

'course, I’m a Lutheran, but even if I weren’t I would still say the same thing.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That argument only holds if one agrees that the early church from day 1 was Catholic.

And it really was, Tex.

The official name came later, but there was a continuity of leadership from the Apostles and the bishops who followed them from Peter all the way to Francis today.

The same organization has been in existence since day one.

 

[benhur]

All the rationalization in the world can’t change the fact that the Catholic Church gave you , me and the whole world the bible. Unless one wants to argue that the Holy
Spirit somehow got involved with the wrong church.

I think Vat 2 was trying to be more ecumenical at least when it stated that the preferable way to put it is that God gave us the bible. Is the Hebrew bible also Catholic ?

 

[benhur]

Since they were aliens to God, “St Justin is saying that even before the Incarnation those who followed the Divine Word could speak to men – to Jews through the prophets and to outsiders in a purely interior way.” Catholic Apologetics Today, p 146].

As St Paul teaches in Romans 2:14-16: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” [op.cit. p 146].

As the Christ founded only His Catholic Church, the reality is that salvation comes only through Her – "the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:16), and no other sect.

Why do you sue something we all agree on (that those who do not hear the gospel do have a chance of eternal life like the biafrans etc) to say what I or vat 2 put forth ? Lumen gentia says other churches ,christian churches are “brothers” though not in full union with Rome. You don’t have to be in the CC. Again, is this not new ?

 

[Abu]

spedteacherita #44
I can confess my sins to Jesus myself and receive His absolution. If I commit a sin I know that is serious (what Catholics deem as a mortal sin) I confess this to another Christian - and maybe even my Pastor - and again, I am absolved through the Lord Jesus Christ. Through my baptism and Holy Communion I received the grace and forgiveness for my sin.

While confessing to “others” may be an exercise of humility, and acceptance of blame in the interests of reconciliation would not be without merit, the sacrament instituted by Christ Himself has to be administered by an ordained priest. For the Christ commissioned His Apostles: “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” [Jn 20:22-23].

Further The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Holy Communion can be a reality only when celebrated and confected by a validly ordained priest. The Magisterium instituted by Christ Himself is His authority to define Christ’s teaching.

 

[benhur]

All the rationalization in the world can’t change the fact that the Catholic Church gave you , me and the whole world the bible. Unless one wants to argue that the Holy
Spirit somehow got involved with the wrong church.

No, but you are arguing that the Pentecost church was Catholic.

Scripture is quite clear that the church today is built upon what others have laid down before us. No one is “alone”. We are, as were our predecessors, “living stones”. The apostles are our foundation and Christ the Cornerstone. Those before us wrote, delivered, kept and preserved what was determined to be “holy scripture”. Somewhere down the line the church began to be called Catholic in certain regards. There is a history to what is now the CC as there is to the Orthodox and Protestants. None of those names are from day one .

A rose by any other name is still a rose and sweet smelling.

There has always been the good and bad and ugly of our history and may we aspire and think of the good and honor it, be it catholic, orthodox, or protestant.

Finally, to quote another “theatrical” source, apostolic is as apostolic does.

 

[benhur]

Outside of several books that reformation ripped out,

That is just several more than the CC ripped out from Septuagint. Reformers did what Jerome was not free to do, and what other Catholic bishops only talked about during Luther’s time.

Unless you want to argue that the Holy Spirit mistakenly used Catholics.

I am quite catholic in saying in these regards He makes no mistakes. But I would not be too proud, for even a jackkass can speak for God, even a Luther as has been retorted.

God made no mistake.The only mistake is to say they were, for lack of a better word , Roman Catholic.

 

[benhur]

There can only be one church with one truth. Protestantism does not offer that.

One truth ? JW’s and other cults say that also. Not just truth for we all share in that, but the whole truth, exclusively.!? We have already discussed the positive fruits of these other churches, despite not having 100% truth/ approval rating from CC .

But you do not answer that others have been led by God from CC to “other” churches to find what they were missing out on, as you claimed vice versa.

 

[Abu]

Benhur #48
You don’t have to be in the CC. Again, is this not new ?

No, it is not new. From the first as St Paul teaches in Romans 2:14-16: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” [Fr William G Most, *Catholic Apologetics Today, TAN, p 146].

However, why did the Son of God found His own Church with seven sacraments and the infallible teaching authority of His Magisterium, so clearly identified in the Sacred Scriptures, if it doesn’t matter?

“It is through the Church, which carries on and makes present the salvific work of Jesus Christ in the world, that all who are saved reach heaven (even if it is perhaps only there that they realize it). Those who, through no fault of their own, have never known Christ or his Church can still be saved. But their salvation, too, is the effect of Jesus working through his Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

Further Vatican II infallibly warned: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.” [Vatican II, *Dogmatic Constitution On The Church, #16].

 

[Jubilarian]

One truth ? JW’s and other cults say that also. Not just truth for we all share in that, but the whole truth, exclusively.!? We have already discussed the positive fruits of these other churches, despite not having 100% truth/ approval rating from CC .

But you do not answer that others have been led by God from CC to “other” churches to find what they were missing out on, as you claimed vice versa.

Truth by definition is universal . If you put one stick next to another stick you get two sticks anywhere in the world. With multiple denominations, you don’t have the universality of truth in Protestantism. You get various versions of the truth depending on the preacher.

 

[Jubilarian]

That is just several more than the CC ripped out from Septuagint. Reformers did what Jerome was not free to do, and what other Catholic bishops only talked about during Luther’s time.

I am quite catholic in saying in these regards He makes no mistakes. But I would not be too proud, for even a jackkass can speak for God, even a Luther as has been retorted.

God made no mistake.The only mistake is to say they were, for lack of a better word , Roman Catholic.

The Church Fathers werent Catholic? Oh, historical revisionism , I see. You are even more defiant than most Protestants. I should know, I was one for 15 + years.

 

[Modern_Revert]

“The Church Fathers weren’t Catholic”

There’s a version of this argument going on right now on Devin Rose’s blog:

devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2015/01/15/god-let-the-church-fall-into-error-almost-immediately/

Any free apologists?

 

[benhur]

Truth by definition is universal . If you put one stick next to another stick you get two sticks anywhere in the world. With multiple denominations, you don’t have the universality of truth in Protestantism. You get various versions of the truth depending on the preacher.

Not sure by definition. Truth is truth, despite anyone’s definition. One day all will bow and knee bend at the Lord’s personage, but not yet, not today. There is a connection between truth and acceptance and universality.

The word “two” or "“zwei” or “dos” is man made (well maybe God given, even if thru sin, at Babel). Maybe a lot like our denominational, factional, names (C, P, or O etc).

For a Godly, even Christian truth to be universal it by definition must be held by all Godly, Christian people, The Catholic church ceased to be 100% universal ever since Godly, Christian people disagreed 1%. For ease of history , true universalism generally ceased with early schisms between east and west, and much later in reformation.

There are Christian universal truths but by definition not residing in any one church anymore.

You and I do hold many catholic/universal truths. For instance, we may not agree on real presence but we are universal in “remembering” and even reiterating the Lord’s words at the ceremony. We may not agree on confessing to a priests or to a brother or to God, but we agree on confessing and that His blood washes us.

The reason for my angst is that I believe that the first church held universal truths, and hence started to be known as “catholic”, precisely because they had not evolved and developed "differentiations’’ yet. as noted above. For another example, look at the apostles creed “simplicity”, then look at Trent canons.

That is why we have all this fuss. **One way out is to then say to others ,“You are not Godly, Christian (person/church)”. ** That maintains true universalism ( for that particular “church”), which in circular fashion is said (by some, including CC) to be needed for a church/person to be truly Godly/Christian.

Thanks for listening and provoking such thought.

 

[Tommy999]

Both Catholics and Protestants receive the gift of Grace through baptism. What one does with that Grace is another matter. Some Protestants take that Grace and run with it and truly go through inner conversion to Christ and through God’s mercy are probably saved. Some Catholics receive that Grace and reject it or ignore it and set themselves well down the road to eternal damnation.

By virtue of the Church holding the entire deposit of Truth, it should theoretically be easier for a Catholic to sustain his or her inner conversion, but the sad reality of our fallen nature often means we don’t. Yet some Protestants even with the adversity of being in a ecclesial community that only possesses a part of the Truth, manage against all odds to conform their lives to Christ. They are saved through the Church though, because those bits of the Truth that their ecclesial communities possess came from the Church that Christ founded.

So it isn’t entirely an issue of being Catholic or being Protestant. It’s a matter of finding God’s plan for you and sticking with it, sustained by Grace. Being Catholic isn’t automatic salvation, and being Protestant isn’t automatic damnation.

Think of it like this. Two people are driving alone through the desert and the fan belt breaks on each one’s jeep. The Catholic is prepared and possesses a full tool kit that includes a spare fan belt. He repairs his jeep and can drive off at normal speed, confident he can make it safely to his destination. The Protestant has a few tools, but no spare fan belt. He manages to rig up a temporary solution with a piece of rope he found. He can still make it out of the desert IF he’s careful, doesn’t drive too fast, stops often to check the repair and tighten the rope… and prays a lot. The Catholic’s tool kit includes the sanctifying grace distributed through worthy partaking of all 7 of the sacraments. The Protestant’s tool kit includes maybe one or two sacraments, but is missing the rest. (S)he faces a much tougher task.

Now take a Catholic and a Protestant again in the same situation, but the Catholic left his toolbox at home (i.e. he’s ignored or rejected the gift of Grace). The Protestant, with his incomplete tool kit may, if extremely careful, be able to make it. The Catholic will die of thirst.

Ultimately all will depend on God’s mercy. The doomed Catholic may get a second chance (someone else drives by to rescue him or in real life will have a really good health scare), and hopefully will learn to not leave the tools at home next time. The Protestant’s rope may break and fall off further down the road if he doesn’t stop to check and tighten it frequently, and end up in the same predicament as the Catholic who left his tools at home, and may or may not get a second chance.

Because we may not get a second chance with the gift we’ve been given, it behooves us, Catholic or Protestant, to do the best with what we’ve been given.

I really like your analogy, OraLabora. I learn best through analogies and I must say yours is top notch in my book. I see your point through it and mainly agree with it, oddly enough, even though I am a protestant.

The only thing I would modify in it, from my perspective, would be to compare distinct vehicle types and I would remove the part about the fan belt being broken.

To me, Catholicism is like a Cadillac or Rolls Royce with GPS and all the other bells and whistles one could imagine (saints, Mary, sacraments, feast days, high holy days, etc) but is high-maintenance and has a hefty owner’s manual (Catechism) to explain everything.

On the other hand, a lot of protestant traditions are like a Honda Civic or the old Geo Prism, with a focus on sound basics like Christ, the Word of God (Bible), and praise but without a lot of the extra bells and whistles.

One might have to read the AAA road atlas for directions and it might not have the smooth and luxurious ride of the Cadillac, but it gets the job done and it is a steady, reliable, and uncomplicated way to get you from point A (this earthly life) to point B (heaven).

Another possible analogy for me would be Catholicism is like staying at the JW Marriott while most protestant churches are like staying at a Best Western. One may be fancier than the other but both get the job done in the end. Just my two cents.

 

[Jubilarian]

Truth is not just truth without understanding. Truth is important and consistent, hence my analogy with the sticks. One plus one will always be two. The truth does not change (as in Protestantism). Jesus Chirst is the same yesterday and today. That’s why the Universal/Catholic Church is so relevant.

You must think hard on this matter.

 

[Jubilarian]

Not sure by definition. Truth is truth, despite anyone’s definition. One day all will bow and knee bend at the Lord’s personage, but not yet, not today. There is a connection between truth and acceptance and universality.

The word “two” or "“zwei” or “dos” is man made (well maybe God given, even if thru sin, at Babel). Maybe a lot like our denominational, factional, names (C, P, or O etc).

For a Godly, even Christian truth to be universal it by definition must be held by all Godly, Christian people, The Catholic church ceased to be 100% universal ever since Godly, Christian people disagreed 1%. For ease of history , true universalism generally ceased with early schisms between east and west, and much later in reformation.

There are Christian universal truths but by definition not residing in any one church anymore.

You and I do hold many catholic/universal truths. For instance, we may not agree on real presence but we are universal in “remembering” and even reiterating the Lord’s words at the ceremony. We may not agree on confessing to a priests or to a brother or to God, but we agree on confessing and that His blood washes us.

The reason for my angst is that I believe that the first church held universal truths, and hence started to be known as “catholic”, precisely because they had not evolved and developed "differentiations’’ yet. as noted above. For another example, look at the apostles creed “simplicity”, then look at Trent canons.

That is why we have all this fuss. One way out is to then say to others ,“You are not Godly, Christian(person/church)”. That maintains true universalism ( for that particular “church”), which in circular fashion is said (by some, including CC) to be needed for a church/person to be truly Godly/Christian.

Thanks for listening and provoking such thought.

Truth is not just truth without understanding. Truth is important and consistent, hence my analogy with the sticks. One plus one will always be two. The truth does not change (as it does in Protestantism). Jesus Chirst is the same yesterday and today. That’s why the Universal/Catholic Church is so relevant.

You must think hard on this matter.