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benhur
Guest
yes.like a child and with the mind of Christ
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benhur
Guest
This does not answer truth’s that evolve, develop. This does not answer practices, applications that evolve over supposed understanding. *This does not answer the thoughts of some folk that the Catholic Church is not the same as yesterday either. *That P’s change more or are more varied does not do away with those thoughts.
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Jubilarian
Guest
One plus one will never add up to three no matter how much evolution takes place. Protestants keep looking for a way to shift the unstable nature of thousands of denominations into some version of universal truth. It isn’t there my friend. I lived it.
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Abu
Guest
“Universal” means “of worldwide scope/applicable to or common to all members”, and Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, **“Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” **It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).
So there is absolutely no basis for denying that fact of history. It is that sort of denial that resulted in the perpetrators losing truths of faith.
Christ gave us His Catholic Church precisely to teach His Truths, and those “evolving” their own “differentiations” have His condemnation – “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican.” (Mt 18:17).
Christ gave us His Church to teach so that She could develop and explain all that we need to know for salvation – the Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!
What a shame to deny the Christ: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.”[Mt 28:19-20].
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Jubilarian
Guest
One plus one will never add up to three no matter how much evolution takes place. Protestants keep looking for a way to shift the unstable nature of thousands of denominations into some version of universal truth. It isn’t there my friend. I lived it.
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benhur
Guest
A thousand variations sinks universalism just as two variations.
Nor are they looking to say they are the only universal church .
A universal truth has no version. It is or it isn’t , much like 1+1=2 mathmatically speaking.
Not very ecumenical of you. By definition there are universal truths amongst P’s for we are very catholic.
If I may say humbly, there is a difference in justifying/evidencing a universal church and a universal doctrine/truth.
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Jubilarian
Guest
God is not the author of confusion. Gods word should not change from church to church. I realize that you have embraced the opposite view. I would encourage you to remove the Protestant lenses and journey home. Answers await you.
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benhur
Guest
I like your focus and zeal. CC could also reform to former state, with help of O’s and P’s, and we will be closer to universal.
Opposite view of what, unity, universalism, God changing from church to church ? Do I really embrace that ? I am quite the absolutist also.
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Jubilarian
Guest
You may not care to embrace it, but you must. Protestantism offers that up to you. Salvation, eschatology etc. exist in the realm of fluctuation outside of mother church. Inconsistencies are certainly not God ordained.
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spedteacherita
Guest
Well, at this point, until I am totally convinced that all of the dogmas/doctrines taught by the Catholic Church are God-inspired, we will have to agree to disagree.
I don’t think any of us can seriously limit God’s ability to forgive our sins outside of a confessional. My baptism and participating in the blessing of Holy Communion assures me that I have received God’s redeeming grace and I experience daily forgiveness for my sins both of commission and omission.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
If this is true, Ben, then I think you must admit that Protestantism, as opposed to Catholicism or Orthodoxy, is a failure.
Protestantism fails not because it doesn’t teach some common truths from one denomination to the next - it does. Protestantism fails because at its core lie sola scriptura and the absolute right to private judgment, and these two ideas cannot lead a people to a single view of God, a single interpretation of scripture, a common frame of reference, etc.
I’m going to re-post something here which I wrote in another thread a few days ago:
Have you ever watched any of those shows on the History Channel about the Titanic? Man, I bet I have seen them all more than once.
Do you know what ultimately led to the demise of that ship? The steel with which the ship’s hull was made was not formulated properly; it was too brittle. Thus, when the ship struck the iceberg at a slight glancing blow, the steel, which was below freezing in the salty brine of the ocean, did not give or bend; it snapped, and the ship split open along a line that was too great for all the watertight compartments to handle. Ironically, if the ship had hit the iceberg dead on, it would have survived. Turning the ship to avoid collision exposed the weakness of the bad steel to the point of impact.
Sola scriptura and private judgment are the ingredients that make up the bad formula of Protestant theology. It can’t be repaired. It can’t be patched over. And the brittle nature of Protestantism is evident as Luther’s progeny have fractured into more denominations than he would have ever thought possible.
So, Ben, if you are uncomfortable with the non-absolutist view, Protestantism cannot help you.
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Abu
Guest
The evidence for the reality that the Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance (Reconciliation, Confession) cannot be denied. Why did He do that if it was so unnecessary?
Similarly with the other sacraments and the priesthood to administer them. Assumptions about God’s actions cannot seriously compare with Christ’s clear and specific actions instituting not only His Church, but Her authority and His Magisterium for the Christ made all four promises to St Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].
The Christ gave St Peter Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).
The tremendous reality of Christ instituting His Church and warning “if he refuses to hear even the Church let him be like the heathen and a publican” (Mt 18:17), needs to be understood and appreciated as part of the development of holiness.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Rita-
Then may I, also, agree and disagree with you? Here are a few thoughts on confession that may put this into a new light for you…
The Biblical Basis for Confession of Sins to a Priest
On the evening of the Resurrection, Jesus appeared in the midst of the apostles and said to them:
“As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (John 20:21-23)
Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Elsewhere in the gospels, Jesus tells the apostles that the Father has sent him into the world with “all authority”. In like manner, Jesus commissions them with the authority He has been given – authority the apostles will need to carry out the mission He has entrusted them with.
Notice that Jesus prefaces his remarks about forgiveness by saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” Fr. Dowling rightly notes here that the capacity to have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us is a far greater thing than the ability to forgive sins. If the former is possible, the latter does not seem impossible.
Unless we assume that Jesus has also given the apostles the ability to read minds, this passage presupposes that there is a hearing of the sins in order for a judgment to be made as to whether the sins should be forgiven or retained, depending on whether or not the person is truly sorry for his or her sins. Without sorrow for sins, there can be no forgiveness; even God cannot forgive an unrepentant sinner or hardened heart. In saying “if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven”, Jesus precludes the possible argument that He was merely giving the apostles the authority to preach the message of forgiveness. Clearly, the apostles were to judge and forgive or retain the sins of men.
Matthew’s Gospel provides another important passage revealing God’s intention for the power Jesus shares with His Church:
“Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.” At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!” Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” And the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.” (Matthew 9:2-8)
The central focus of this story is not the healing of the paralyzed man but the revelation of the authority of Jesus. Why does this passage indicate that this authority has been passed on to the Church? Verse eight says, “When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.” Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Matthew records correctly that the authority to forgive sins had been given not to a single man, Jesus, but to men. We can know this because he is not quoting the comments of the crowd in this verse but ascribing to them the proper reason for why they were filled with awe. Additionally, we know that Matthew wrote this passage some 15-20 years after the event described thus giving us the assurance that he had plenty of time to reflect upon the truth of what he has just written and had seen the forgiveness of sins through confession in actual practice in the early Church. If this were not the case, then Matthew would not have written as he did.
(cont.)
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Paul also talks about the ministry of forgiveness that has been passed on from Jesus. In his second letter to the church in Corinth we read:
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)
Here Paul speaks of both the message and the ministry of reconciliation. Forgiveness of sins is proclaimed as part of the good news; actual reconciliation through confession and absolution is administered through the sacrament. In this way, the Church completes the mission of Jesus by preaching, by baptizing, and by forgiving sins.
Note, too, the use of the pronouns “we”, “us”, and “you” in this passage. When speaking strictly of the ministry of reconciliation, Paul says that God “gave us the ministry of reconciliation” and that “we are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us.” Then, he says “We implore you” to be reconciled. Clearly, there are two groups: those who have the ministry of reconciliation and those to whom he is speaking of being reconciled. The “you” – his audience – to whom he is speaking does not share in that ministry. Therefore, we can understand that some have the responsibility to reconcile men to God and some do not. This ministry is consistent with the function of the priesthood. For example, consider the following passage from the Gospel of Matthew:
“When he came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him. A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cured of his leprosy. Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” (Matthew 8:1-4)
In this passage, we see that Jesus healed the man of leprosy, but He still directs the man to show himself to the priest at the temple and to offer the sacrifice commanded by the law. Why? First, in doing so, the man’s cure gave testimony about Jesus because the miracle performed was a sign of Christ’s divine nature. Second, the priest confirmed the healing and reconciled the man to society which he was then allowed to re-enter.
Confession to a priest is very similar to this. As Patrick Madrid notes in his book, Does the Bible Really Say That?, “No [one] can make a good sacramental confession without first confessing directly to God. Only then can one properly receive the sacrament of confession, receiving sacramental absolution from the priest, who ministers in persona Christi (in the person of Christ).” This refers back to the ministry of reconciliation Paul described above. Once the penitent has confessed his sin to God, shown himself to be truly contrite and received absolution (offering the sacrifice or penance prescribed by the priest), he is reconciled to both God and the Body of Christ and, in the case of grave matter, allowed to re-enter the sacramental life of the Church.
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:18-20)
Here Paul speaks of both the message and the ministry of reconciliation. Forgiveness of sins is proclaimed as part of the good news; actual reconciliation through confession and absolution is administered through the sacrament. In this way, the Church completes the mission of Jesus by preaching, by baptizing, and by forgiving sins.
Note, too, the use of the pronouns “we”, “us”, and “you” in this passage. When speaking strictly of the ministry of reconciliation, Paul says that God “gave us the ministry of reconciliation” and that “we are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us.” Then, he says “We implore you” to be reconciled. Clearly, there are two groups: those who have the ministry of reconciliation and those to whom he is speaking of being reconciled. The “you” – his audience – to whom he is speaking does not share in that ministry. Therefore, we can understand that some have the responsibility to reconcile men to God and some do not. This ministry is consistent with the function of the priesthood. For example, consider the following passage from the Gospel of Matthew:
“When he came down from the mountainside, large crowds followed him. A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, “Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.” Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” Immediately he was cured of his leprosy. Then Jesus said to him, “See that you don’t tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” (Matthew 8:1-4)
In this passage, we see that Jesus healed the man of leprosy, but He still directs the man to show himself to the priest at the temple and to offer the sacrifice commanded by the law. Why? First, in doing so, the man’s cure gave testimony about Jesus because the miracle performed was a sign of Christ’s divine nature. Second, the priest confirmed the healing and reconciled the man to society which he was then allowed to re-enter.
Confession to a priest is very similar to this. As Patrick Madrid notes in his book, Does the Bible Really Say That?, “No [one] can make a good sacramental confession without first confessing directly to God. Only then can one properly receive the sacrament of confession, receiving sacramental absolution from the priest, who ministers in persona Christi (in the person of Christ).” This refers back to the ministry of reconciliation Paul described above. Once the penitent has confessed his sin to God, shown himself to be truly contrite and received absolution (offering the sacrifice or penance prescribed by the priest), he is reconciled to both God and the Body of Christ and, in the case of grave matter, allowed to re-enter the sacramental life of the Church.
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spedteacherita
Guest
Again, I have heard and read this consistently in these forums. Yes, I’m here to learn what and why Catholics understand Christ’s teaching but since I still see these passages as an admonishment for all Christians (at this point) I am going to trust that what Jesus says in
John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
Romans 10:9-13 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”**
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Actually, confession is really not an issue that I have trouble with in light of Catholic teachings. I would have no problem going to a priest to confess but I don’t believe - right now - that it is a primary concern within my own life.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your understanding of the Scriptures.**
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spedteacherita
Guest
Hi, Randy. Thanks for adding to the conversation. What I am going to have to do is print out your info and read, mark and inwardly digest it (to be a true Lutheran
) and get back to you after I do. My mind becomes too muddled to be able to make a careful answer…pretty bad for a former teacher!!!
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ericc
Guest
With Mark 9:38-39 in mind, I’d say it doesn’t matter at first glance. However, (some) Protestants do speak evil of the Catholic Church and her Chief Shepherd. Hence, unless they stop doing that, it DOES matter. The day they stop doing that is the day we will become ONE. All disputes will be settled in the the Church rather than out.
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Jubilarian
Guest
You make some good points. I would venture to say that it is much more common for Protestants to decry the evils of Catholicism than the opposite. Just look on line alone, and you will see hundreds of Protestant web pages outlining the evils of the CC.
Rarely if ever do you see Protestants called evil or corrupt by Catholic institutions . More often, Catholics will use the approach of simply pointing out the errors of Protestantism without all the demonic talk. This fact is an important distinction between how the two mind sets operate. Quite frankly, Protestants often go over the top with horrific claims against the CC.
Rarely if ever do you see Protestants called evil or corrupt by Catholic institutions . More often, Catholics will use the approach of simply pointing out the errors of Protestantism without all the demonic talk. This fact is an important distinction between how the two mind sets operate. Quite frankly, Protestants often go over the top with horrific claims against the CC.
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TxGodfollower
Guest
There are a vocal minority on BOTH sides that do this. I have seen some people all but flat out say all protestants are demonic, heretics, corrupted, infants (and I’m tryin to keep it clean for here). There are hundreds of websites on BOTH sides that tear down the other. What I find most interesting, is which side acknowledges this fact, and which one claims to be a complete victim.
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benhur
Guest
I am not in 30,000 churches, save one.
Salvation is salvation. Rebirth is rebirth. Endurance to the end is endurance to the end. All these by any other name is still the same sweet gracious reality.
“Inconsistencies are not God ordained.”, you properly say. We both claim each other has them, but I would add my church is not perfect, yet. Any inconsistencies are not His doing and He has perfectly guided, as the wind goes where it listeth.
The wheat and tares are together for now.
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