Cool, thank you . Sorry, HS is for Holy Spirit. I also use C’s for Catholics and O’s for Orthodox and P for Protestants. Not a slow day, I had to catch up on some lingo and abbreviations used here also. Do you know how many times I have had to look up words in the on line dictionary ? A lot, even my own!Ok, that is a reasonable response . One thing though, maybe I’m having a slow day, but what does"HS" mean?"
Agreed. But another sign for the unbeliever is our love we have one for another. Jesus tells us there is more merit to love one with whom we have disagreements with(even enemies which differing brethren are not).Why would it matter?
Two reasons come to mind:
- The unity of the Church (which Jesus even prayed for) was supposed to be a sign to the [unbelieving] world that Jesus had come from the Father.
Probably but, " my people perish for lack of knowledge" also. Apparently reformers thought such knowledge was being hindered by dogmatic/practice errors.Instead, that unity has been shattered, the witness has been diminished, and souls who might have been saved are lost forever.
Anyone who allows unrighteousness within the Church also is a bad witness.If you don’t reform yourself maybe the Lord will reform it for you, thru someone you will call a rebel.Anyone who remains separated from the Catholic Church Jesus built upon Peter is perpetuating this loss of souls who are watching what Christians DO;
Agreed. But for* some* the big picture is more about their church than the gospel and the Body of Christ.,ironically, this is true even as they preach the gospel to win souls in their own churches. You must think big picture here.
Sorry, but to me the whole CC dogma on grace “bank” ‘and its "dispensing’’ is a bit mechanical for me, Otherwise agreed that we suffer when brothers do not avail themselves of any source of God’s graces.
- The Catholic Church was endowed with seven sacraments which are means of grace and helps along the difficult journey we face in this life. If ALL Christians were Catholics, then ALL Christians could avail themselves of those sacraments and that grace. Instead, some Christians have been taught that there are only two sacraments and the opportunities for the reception of grace through the others are missed by those who are not Catholic. As a result of these missed opportunities, some souls may not be saved.
Perhaps. but there is salvation and grace in these other fellowships.Anyone who remains separated from the Catholic Church gives, by means of their involvement in other fellowships, encouragement and support to others in their estrangement from the Catholic Church and may, therefore, be contributing to their eternal loss
I agree. The unity of the Church would have prevented an enormous amount of strife and bloodshed. cf:The unity of the Church (which Jesus even prayed for) was supposed to be a sign to the [unbelieving] world that Jesus had come from the Father. Instead, that unity has been shattered, the witness has been diminished, and souls who might have been saved are lost forever.
Is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?Agreed. But another sign for the unbeliever is our love we have one for another. Jesus tells us there is more merit to love one with whom we have disagreements with(even enemies which differing brethren are not).
The Didache puts responsibility on both sides of an issue. “Do not create a schism but pacify those that contend”. Probably but, " my people perish for lack of knowledge" also. Apparently reformers thought such knowledge was being hindered by dogmatic/practice errors.
Anyone who allows unrighteousness within the Church also is a bad witness.If you don’t reform yourself maybe the Lord will reform it for you, thru someone you will call a rebel.Agreed. But for* some* the big picture is more about their church than the gospel and the Body of Christ.
Sorry, but to me the whole CC dogma on grace “bank” ‘and its "dispensing’’ is a bit mechanical for me, Otherwise agreed that we suffer when brothers do not avail themselves of any source of God’s graces.
I do not see Catholics with seven sacraments walking anymore in victory than brothers with 2 or 3 sacraments . Perhaps. but there is salvation and grace in these other fellowships.
By the same token, other fellowships exist partly because they think CC errors are detrimental to the gospel and the Body of Christ. Division or separation is then seen as merited by some as the lesser of the two evils. That seems to be HIStory.
It won’t matter in the end. Not one bit. I personally believe anyone can get into heaven. If a Muslim out there is a genuinely good person and is kind to everyone and treats people with dignity and respect, there’s no doubt in my mind that they will be in a better place after their death. Like if a Catholic who is rude and judgmental and has no respect for others, their religion isn’t going to save them in the final judgment. Religion is just a belief, it’s not what determines how good of a person you are. At the final judgment, you can’t pull out a document that proves you were baptized because in the end, that won’t matter. It’s how you show that you were baptized, through good words and deeds. It won’t matter if you were religious.Why would it matter if you lived your life as a Protestant or a Catholic as far as your eternal destiny? If it doesn’t matter, are Catholics and Protestants only trying to make points and correct each other on history rather than point to salvation for each other?
Why the fuss? We will spend much more time in eternity than on earth. Keep in mind this is only a question, I do think truths should be explained, simply for clarity.
I’ve often thought like you. However ,with such thoughts, it would mean that no religion of any kind would matter. If you live your life doing good works, Christianty wouldn’t matter. As long as you live a good life your going to heaven. To some, this idea is thological heresy .It won’t matter in the end. Not one bit. I personally believe anyone can get into heaven. If a Muslim out there is a genuinely good person and is kind to everyone and treats people with dignity and respect, there’s no doubt in my mind that they will be in a better place after their death. Like if a Catholic who is rude and judgmental and has no respect for others, their religion isn’t going to save them in the final judgment. Religion is just a belief, it’s not what determines how good of a person you are. At the final judgment, you can’t pull out a document that proves you were baptized because in the end, that won’t matter. It’s how you show that you were baptized, through good words and deeds. It won’t matter if you were religious.
My baby cousin died of leukemia. Never was baptized and was never going to be, as my aunt and uncle are not religious. But I know he’s not in hell.
On whose authority is the authority of God the Son ignored and contradicted when He installed St Peter as the Head of His Church with the other Apostles and declared “The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18), and “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”?benhur #101
other fellowships exist partly because they think CC errors are detrimental to the gospel and the Body of Christ.
Solid answer. Whew! I agree, it’s all there in black-and-white , yet the foolishness continues.On whose authority is the authority of God the Son ignored and contradicted when He installed St Peter as the Head of His Church with the other Apostles and declared “The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18), and “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”?
As His Church, the Body of Christ, gave the world the New Testament as the Word of God, which person could possibly realistically, even surmise, that they could contradict the Christ and declare He is wrong – that His Church teaches “errors”?
Why should anyone believe such a factual, logical fallacy?
Such “other fellowships” simply perpetuate their own errors on to the unwary when they deviate from Christ’s Catholic Church.
Hi Abu and all,This does not mean that there is no value at all in a sincere misunderstanding over a belief – it does mean that further questioning is worthwhile and that the reality is worthy of examination and acceptance.
Spedteacherita #108
Hi Abu and all,
I am here for further questioning and understanding and I would never come and be deliberately disrespectful in my questioning. I might be convinced of the infallibility of the pope’s office but for some of the doctrines that, from my perspective and study, have been added after the first century.
Have you examined Mary:I am studying the church fathers and the written documentation of history from their perspective. I’m still within the first 1 and 1/2 centuries and I cannot see any references in them relating to apostolic teachings of Marian doctrines and asking the saints to “run interference” for us to God…
Thanks, Abu!! Good stuff to study…Have you examined Mary:
Mother of God at catholic.com/tracts/mary-mother-of-god?
And, THE PATRISTIC PRAISE OF MARY by John A. Hammes at
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FR90203.HTM?
Mary in the Early Church by Dr Mark Miravalle at
piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/heart_mary/mary_early_church_miravalle.htm?
Very true. I’m not sure if there’s a clear-cut line.I’ve often thought like you. However ,with such thoughts, it would mean that no religion of any kind would matter. If you live your life doing good works, Christianty wouldn’t matter. As long as you live a good life your going to heaven. To some, this idea is thological heresy .
There are billions of Chinese , many living beautiful lives without Christ. They would fall into your category as well. Many things remain a mystery to me. I just don’t get it all.
Interesting. Did your father reveal more about his “near death” experience? I must say, I’m sure that many of the near death experiences are hoaxes, however I think many people did have something supernatural happen to them. I can’t say for sure.Very true. I’m not sure if there’s a clear-cut line.
My dad had a heart attack a few years ago and went to heaven for a short bit. He’s always been a little weird and confused about his religion since he had a pretty hard life. He wasn’t the best Catholic and certainly doesn’t believe in most of the bible, but there is no way he went to hell, as he was in the most peaceful state without a care in the world.
There is the practice and there is the dogma/spirit behind it, which if I am correct, the latter still stand. In a smaller, subtler fashion, the practice ($ for grace or prayers/Mass) still exists.Is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?
There is nothing subtle about an insinuation that panders to the mistaken idea that the Catholic Church did nothing to stop the sin of the sale of indulgences by some which the Council of Trent denounced, and the assumption of some dogma involved.Benhur #113
There is the practice and there is the dogma/spirit behind it, which if I am correct, the latter still stand. In a smaller, subtler fashion, the practice ($ for grace or prayers/Mass) still exists.
Reminds me of the moneylenders,/merchants at the Temple that angered the Lord.
No offense meant . Did not suggest CC did not reform. I think reform was in the practice or abuse thereof but not in the doctrine.There is nothing subtle about an insinuation that panders to the mistaken idea that the Catholic Church did nothing to stop the sin of the sale of indulgences by some which the Council of Trent denounced, and the assumption of some dogma involved.
Stipends offered at Mass help to support the priests and help defray the expenses.
The theology of indulgences is still valid. It is the unauthorized SELLING of indulgences which has been corrected.There is the practice and there is the dogma/spirit behind it, which if I am correct, the latter still stand. In a smaller, subtler fashion, the practice ($ for grace or prayers/Mass) still exists.
Reminds me of the moneylenders,/merchants at the Temple that angered the Lord.
P’s have the same challenge to beware of this, as evidenced by some tele-evangelists…
None of it was a hoax. He died and went to heaven. He was revived in the hospital after many surgeries and medications and I am very glad to have him back.Interesting. Did your father reveal more about his “near death” experience? I must say, I’m sure that many of the near death experiences are hoaxes, however I think many people did have something supernatural happen to them. I can’t say for sure.
I’m always looking for little details within the event that give me a “convincing” hope that those of us that fall into sin or doubt regularly still have a chance.
The theology of indulgences is still valid. It is the unauthorized SELLING of indulgences which has been corrected.
Great story. I think I might be a little worse than “oh my god” but yourNone of it was a hoax. He died and went to heaven. He was revived in the hospital after many surgeries and medications and I am very glad to have him back.
I promise you that if you sin a little bit, God will understand that you are sorry for those sins. If you say “Oh my God” a few times, you won’t go to hell. I PROMISE.