Would it really matter or change anything if Joseph & Mary had other children?

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Don9of11

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The Gospel reading today Mt 12:46-50 says Jesus was speaking to the crowds when someone came and told Him that his mother and brothers are standing outside to see you. Some use this passage to argue that Jesus had siblings which implies that the Blessed Mother had other children thus compromising her eternal virginity. But I ask, if Jesus had brothers where were they when He was crucified. Why was only his Mother, Mary Magdalene, Mary the wife Clopas and John at the foot of the cross? If he had brothers why did he entrust the care of his mother to John.

I try to read the readings for the day and post on FB with a meaningful reflection. This time I left it open. My brother ask, and hence the title of this thread - Would it really matter or change anything if Joseph & Mary had other children?

I am reading thru Chapters 14, 15 of The Essential Catholic Survival Guide and The Life of Christ - Chapter 10, pg 142 where Bishop Sheen is talking about “brethren of the Lord” in an effort to try and answer this question in a sound & meaningful manner.

🙂
 
Perhaps for Catholics it would change things…much of the Catholic faith is “bound up” in the “perpetual virginity” and “immaculate conception” of Mary…much of Catholic belief and thought REQUIRES the belief Jesus had no siblings…other faith traditions have no such need to keep Jesus sibling free and Mary “ever virgin”.

Nothing would change for me in the least…God was in Christ…THAT is the “miracle” for me…not “how he got here”…but that HE DID GET HERE in some way…and if the gospel accounts of “Luke” and “Matthew” are mythic attemts to provde the “whys and wherefores” they seek to convey the Incarnation’s Reality…it need not be historically accurate in evey way for me to find “Truth” in it’s accounts.
 
Yes it would really matter. Yes, it would change, in a word, everything.

Either something is true or it isn’t.

We have been told, as a dogmatic truth, that Mary was ‘ever virgin’. That teaching goes back to the 2nd century AD; it isn’t something recent.

Let me give you an example. In 1899 my husband’s grandmother, on a visit in Europe, met her grandmother, aged at that time 100. IOW, the grandma’s grandma was born in 1799. And the story was told to me in 1987 when my husband’s grandmother also turned 100.

So, I was talking with a woman whose own memory encompassed talking with a woman who would remember Waterloo, the war of 1812, and as an elderly woman, the U.S. Civil War. This woman was born at the time George Washington died.

So let’s picture the 2nd century AD which is the years 101-199 or so. Let’s say Jesus died in AD 33, St Peter in AD 66. A person born in AD 33 could live to be 100 in AD 133. That person could have a 12 year old granddaughter born in AD 121 who lived to be 100 in AD 221 --which is the THIRD CENTURY AD. So that grandchild by the middle of the SECOND CENTURY would have had first hand knowledge from somebody born around the time Jesus died, who would have been an adult when St., Peter died.

IF Mary had had other children, there would be enough witnesses in the SECOND CENTURY AD (and even the early THIRD) who would have known people (probably grandparents or great aunts, uncles, or cousins) who were alive when Jesus died and rose from the dead, and who personally knew the apostles AND who knew the whole family connection, etc. There would have been plenty of oral stories about Jesus’s ‘uterine brothers and sisters’ too. Nobody could HOPE to go around making up stories about ‘perpetual virgin’ if Mary had NOT been one–there were too many people who ‘knew the truth’ and who made DANG SURE the truth got told. Anybody who has studied the early Church Fathers knows that even the slightest tinge of UNTRUTH got addressed ASAP.

But instead, we have loads of uncontested teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin. And we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that she had any other children than JESUS.

Why does it matter? Because TRUTH MATTERS. ANY LIE is an offense against truth. . .an offense against God. And a lie which by its nature attacks God by stating that He is NOT who He is (and arguing that Mary was not a perpetual virgin is an attack which indeed states that Christ is NOT who He is) is the worst lie of all.

It matters, It matters very much.

And no, I’m not saying sex is bad between ‘married people’. But tell me, when did God divorce Mary so that she would be ffree by Jewish law to marry and have children by somebody else than God?

I mean, God is the Father of Christ, right? So either God cuckolded Joseph, just like all the ‘other’ gods, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptiansm etc, to make a ‘half god’ like Hercules. . .

Or God really thinks of women as not being ‘human’, being property, so that He can ‘use’ Mary and then turn her back over to her ‘owner’ Joseph. . .

or else God really enters into a true marriage, physical and spiritual, with Mary. . .in which case by Divine Law, which Jesus later brings up with the Pharisees, would make Joseph an adulterer if he had relations with Mary after Jesus was born. . .but would be NO PROBLEM AT ALL if Joseph and Mary never INTENDED to have relations but that he intended to protect her as women in that society were not permitted to function without a living male relative as guardian.

You see, people who leap at the 'after ’ and think Mary and Joseph were just your normal everyday couple who happened to have a half-god in the family, and then had the ‘normal kids’ later, really ARE implying that God USED Mary as an incubator, and that He then threw her as an unwanted ‘leftover’ to Joseph (who apparently didn’t CARE that she was now the mother of a half-god and just wanted to have lots of his OWN rugrats. . .)
 
Yes it would really matter. Yes, it would change, in a word, everything.

Either something is true or it isn’t.

We have been told, as a dogmatic truth, that Mary was ‘ever virgin’. That teaching goes back to the 2nd century AD; it isn’t something recent.

Let me give you an example. In 1899 my husband’s grandmother, on a visit in Europe, met her grandmother, aged at that time 100. IOW, the grandma’s grandma was born in 1799. And the story was told to me in 1987 when my husband’s grandmother also turned 100.

So, I was talking with a woman whose own memory encompassed talking with a woman who would remember Waterloo, the war of 1812, and as an elderly woman, the U.S. Civil War. This woman was born at the time George Washington died.

So let’s picture the 2nd century AD which is the years 101-199 or so. Let’s say Jesus died in AD 33, St Peter in AD 66. A person born in AD 33 could live to be 100 in AD 133. That person could have a 12 year old granddaughter born in AD 121 who lived to be 100 in AD 221 --which is the THIRD CENTURY AD. So that grandchild by the middle of the SECOND CENTURY would have had first hand knowledge from somebody born around the time Jesus died, who would have been an adult when St., Peter died.

IF Mary had had other children, there would be enough witnesses in the SECOND CENTURY AD (and even the early THIRD) who would have known people (probably grandparents or great aunts, uncles, or cousins) who were alive when Jesus died and rose from the dead, and who personally knew the apostles AND who knew the whole family connection, etc. There would have been plenty of oral stories about Jesus’s ‘uterine brothers and sisters’ too. Nobody could HOPE to go around making up stories about ‘perpetual virgin’ if Mary had NOT been one–there were too many people who ‘knew the truth’ and who made DANG SURE the truth got told. Anybody who has studied the early Church Fathers knows that even the slightest tinge of UNTRUTH got addressed ASAP.

But instead, we have loads of uncontested teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin. And we have absolutely NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that she had any other children than JESUS.

Why does it matter? Because TRUTH MATTERS. ANY LIE is an offense against truth. . .an offense against God. And a lie which by its nature attacks God by stating that He is NOT who He is (and arguing that Mary was not a perpetual virgin is an attack which indeed states that Christ is NOT who He is) is the worst lie of all.

It matters, It matters very much.

And no, I’m not saying sex is bad between ‘married people’. But tell me, when did God divorce Mary so that she would be ffree by Jewish law to marry and have children by somebody else than God?

I mean, God is the Father of Christ, right? So either God cuckolded Joseph, just like all the ‘other’ gods, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptiansm etc, to make a ‘half god’ like Hercules. . .

Or God really thinks of women as not being ‘human’, being property, so that He can ‘use’ Mary and then turn her back over to her ‘owner’ Joseph. . .

or else God really enters into a true marriage, physical and spiritual, with Mary. . .in which case by Divine Law, which Jesus later brings up with the Pharisees, would make Joseph an adulterer if he had relations with Mary after Jesus was born. . .but would be NO PROBLEM AT ALL if Joseph and Mary never INTENDED to have relations but that he intended to protect her as women in that society were not permitted to function without a living male relative as guardian.

You see, people who leap at the 'after ’ and think Mary and Joseph were just your normal everyday couple who happened to have a half-god in the family, and then had the ‘normal kids’ later, really ARE implying that God USED Mary as an incubator, and that He then threw her as an unwanted ‘leftover’ to Joseph (who apparently didn’t CARE that she was now the mother of a half-god and just wanted to have lots of his OWN rugrats. . .)
Great Answer!! 👍
 
Adding to Tantum’s well-thought answer, theologically speaking, it would point to Christ never having reversed Adam’s original sin. Here’s why. In Catholic theology, Mary is the figure of the Church (Lumen Gentium 53). Pope John Paul II, teaching on Mary, referred to St. Ambrose’ ancient teaching: *"‘Yes, she [Mary] is betrothed, but she is a virgin because she is a type of the Church which is immaculate but a bride: a virgin, she conceived us by the Spirit; a virgin, she gave birth to us without pain’ (In Ev. sec. Luc., II, 7, CCL, 14, 33, 102-106). Thus Mary is a type of the Church because of her immaculate holiness, her virginity, her betrothal and her motherhood.*In turn, we also know that the Church is the heavenly bride of Christ. (Rev. 21:2-10)

Building on that thought, the Catechism states the following:*CCC#923 “Virgins who, committed to the holy plan of following Christ more closely, are consecrated to God by the diocesan bishop according to the approved liturgical rite, are betrothed mystically to Christ, the Son of God, and are dedicated to the service of the Church.” By this solemn rite (Consecratio virginum), the virgin is "constituted . . . a sacred person, a transcendent sign of the Church’s love for Christ, and an eschatological image of this heavenly Bride of Christ and of the life to come."*Recall above that Mary’s virginity is intertwined with the Church as the bride of Christ. If Christ receives the heavenly Church as his bride, and his bride is not a virgin, then that means his bride has been unfaithful, and the Church retains its sin. Christ’s sacrifice will not have purified his heavenly bride.

Therefore, theologically speaking, if Mary is not a virgin, then Christ’s sacrifice is neutralized.
 
Among many other things, I would make Mary either a liar, or one who broke her vow before the Lord to be His handmaid, or bond slave. Such ignorance of scripture also disregards the fact that Mary was surprised to hear that she was to bear a son - this, while she was betrothed to be married! She had the temerity to ask Gabriel how it was going to happen. She knew that children were the result of knowledge of man. Why then, was she surprised?

If all of our anti-Catholic and broad-minded to-a-fault friends would actually consider, for a single moment, that they and their private interpretation of scripture might just be wrong, while the Eastern Orthodox (and Catholic) Churches just might be right, their eyes might be opened to the truth.

Truth plods along slowly in this world.
 
If there were additional children, why weren’t they ever mentioned any where else by any one else? Why wouldn’t Jesus have made them Apostles also? There would be children of these children, and it seems to me they would have become important figures in the Church. Why would so many people continue telling a story that wasn’t true? The word brother doesn’t have to mean a biological sibling. My (biological) brother calls all of his motorcycle buddies brothers. It doesn’t mean my mother gave birth to them.

If it weren’t true it would make a trusted and honored person in the history of the Church a liar. It’s kind of like when people don’t believe Jesus was the Son of God, but just a good prophet. He said He was the Son of God. If he wasn’t, then He lied about something very huge. How could He be a “good prophet” and speak God’s word if He was such a liar?
 
Mary’s perpetual virginity testifies to the Incarnation of Jesus, that He was true God and true Man. Attacks on Mary’s perpetual virginity were important to the Arians, the Docetists, and pagans. Any time somebody wants to downplay the horrifying scandal that God the Son was born a little baby, they try to make Mary more of a “normal woman” and less of a sign.

And the same is true of Joseph. He’s a little too righteous for some people, I guess. A man who will obey God’s instructions just like that, and believe God over his own assumptions – that’s not comfy. (Although if he had previous children before Jesus, that doesn’t affect doctrine; and opinions have differed over the years about his family history.)

If Jesus was “just this nice guy,” there’s no necessity for Mary and Joseph to live in a different way than every other Jewish family. And if the burning bush was just a bush with the sunset behind it, there was no need for Moses to change his way of life, or for Abraham and Sarah to uproot themselves from their home city in their old age and go wandering off in the wilderness.

On the other hand, if God is utterly transcendent and doesn’t poke His nose into other people’s business, Mary and Joseph can just have this weird bloodless phantom of Jesus living in their house, and not change their lives either.
 
I have to admit this is an area of the faith where I struggle. I definitely believe that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus. However, she and Joseph did marry, and in a normal marriage…would it matter if they had natural children later, I don’t really think so. If they were married, that wouldn’t be sinful, so IMO Mary would still be pure. I understand the Church’s stance, and it is possible, but IMO not probable…
 
The straightest and simplest answer to the title question is - No it would not matter.

Of course if that were the case then the tradition of Mary’s perpetual virginity would not have come down in the deposit of the faith and the dogma of the perpetual virginity would never have been declared.

Beyond that - I don’t see how it would have changed anything.

Peace
James
 
I have to admit this is an area of the faith where I struggle. I definitely believe that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus. However, she and Joseph did marry, and in a normal marriage…would it matter if they had natural children later, I don’t really think so. If they were married, that wouldn’t be sinful, so IMO Mary would still be pure. I understand the Church’s stance, and it is possible, but IMO not probable…
As I recently posted on another thread…I stopped struggling over the virginity issue after I put myself in Joseph’s sandals. Look up what Joseph knew and when he knew it and then ask yourself this question. "Would I, knowing what I know, choose to have sexual relations with the mother of the Messiah - “betrothed” (impregnated) of the Spirit?
My answer was - No I would not…and I believe this would be Joseph’s answer too.

Peace
James
 
As I recently posted on another thread…I stopped struggling over the virginity issue after I put myself in Joseph’s sandals. Look up what Joseph knew and when he knew it and then ask yourself this question. "Would I, knowing what I know, choose to have sexual relations with the mother of the Messiah - “betrothed” (impregnated) of the Spirit?
My answer was - No I would not…and I believe this would be Joseph’s answer too.

Peace
James
A very good point. It is entirely possible that in many ways he would have been too scared and following God’s orders to take care of her. 👍
 
A very good point. It is entirely possible that in many ways he would have been too scared and following God’s orders to take care of her. 👍
We are told that Joseph was a righteous man - upright before the Lord…I don’t know how much “fear” might have been involved…but I definitely believe there was a large amount of respect and reverence involved.

Peace
James
 
We are told that Joseph was a righteous man - upright before the Lord…I don’t know how much “fear” might have been involved…but I definitely believe there was a large amount of respect and reverence involved.

Peace
James
Well, we know that Uzzah died for touching the Ark of the OT which contained nothing more divine than tablets written on by God’s finger. We also know that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, containing God Himself. I should think a fair amount of healthy fear would be involved!
 
I have to admit this is an area of the faith where I struggle. I definitely believe that Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus. However, she and Joseph did marry, and in a normal marriage…would it matter if they had natural children later, I don’t really think so. If they were married, that wouldn’t be sinful, so IMO Mary would still be pure. I understand the Church’s stance, and it is possible, but IMO not probable…
Did Mary then lie to Gabriel? She vowed to be the handmaid, or bond slave, of the Lord. No ending date on her promise. You will please note that she was with Jesus, and vice versa, from virgin womb to virgin tomb.

Why was Mary so surprised to hear that she would bear a child? So surprised that she had the presence of mind to ask God’s angel *how on earth * she was going to have a child. Think of what the angel’s appearance did to the **soldiers ** in Matthew 28:2-4 - his appearance was like lightning and they became like dead men.

Besides, Gabriel said, “behold, you shall conceive in your womb and bear a Son” Singular. Not children. Not a family. We are talking the supernatural here. Joseph had to be commanded to take her as his wife. This was no normal family! Do we think as man does and not as God does?

Mary existed first as an idea in the Divine intellect. Then, to take flesh for our salvation, her future Son saw to it that she was conceived in her mother’s womb so that, in turn, she could give her flesh to Jesus for the salvation of the world. Jesus chose, then created His own mother!

Lastly, name one other “son”, “daughter”, or “other children” of Mary. Can’t. Be careful here about reading into scripture what is not there.
 
Why was Mary so surprised to hear that she would bear a child? So surprised that she had the presence of mind to ask God’s angel *how on earth * she was going to have a child. Think of what the angel’s appearance did to the **soldiers ** in Matthew 28:2-4 - his appearance was like lightning and they became like dead men.

Besides, Gabriel said, “behold, you shall conceive in your womb and bear a Son” Singular. Not children. Not a family. We are talking the supernatural here. Joseph had to be commanded to take her as his wife. This was no normal family! Do we think as man does and not as God does?
Keep in mind this part isn’t at all a problem for me. I believe Mary was a Virgin when pregnant with Jesus, so it would come as no surprise that she would have been shocked at the pregnancy. I guess I don’t see anything in scripture (handmaid or not) that actually banned her and Joseph from having children, so the question “would it matter if they did?”, well, to me, no. However, I do believe that is entirely possible that Mary lived the life of a nun for the rest of her days.
 
Lastly, name one other “son”, “daughter”, or “other children” of Mary. Can’t. Be careful here about reading into scripture what is not there.
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?”

Matthew 12:46 “While he was still speaking to the crowds his mother and his brothers were standing outside, wanting to speak to him.”

Yes, it is entirely possible we are talking half siblings, but scripture does not clarify that these were not Mary’s children either.
 
No, it wouldn’t matter in the slightest - it is totally irrelevant to my relationship with God. It would also simplify all the meaningless rationalizations people wrestle with trying to smooth out all the issues that don’t really make sense.
 
Matthew 13:55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us?”

Matthew 12:46 “While he was still speaking to the crowds his mother and his brothers were standing outside, wanting to speak to him.”

Yes, it is entirely possible we are talking half siblings, but scripture does not clarify that these were not Mary’s children either.
Yes it does. Scripture tells us who the mothers of these 4 are, and they are not the BVM.
 
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