Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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mitex #71
Jesus has to be a free-market libertarian social conservative anarchist!
A mockery of the lessons to be learned from: the Parable of the Talents and the Dishonest Steward; the emphatic affirmation of free enterprise by Bl JPII; the required personal and social responsibility in society; the enormous benefits of free enterprise; the fact that wealth has to be created before it can be distributed to those in need, and the inanity of prejudicial labeling rather than reasoning.
 
A mockery of the lessons to be learned from: the Parable of the Talents and the Dishonest Steward; the emphatic affirmation of free enterprise by Bl JPII; the required personal and social responsibility in society; the enormous benefits of free enterprise; the fact that wealth has to be created before it can be distributed to those in need, and the inanity of prejudicial labeling rather than reasoning.
Abu relax it was a little bit of humor to lighten up the conversation 🤷

I’m sorry my joke offended you 😦
 
No offence taken, mitex; merely ensuring that others are not led astray. There are many who tend to misunderstand and misrepresent what Christ and His Church proclaim, and the results are with us today in the widespread meltdown.
 
Jesus has to be a free-market libertarian social conservative anarchist! :eek:

Really read the Sermon on the Mount and some of USCCB’s social justice documents and you’ll find your answers.
👍
 
Enshrining charity does not make charity immoral -
Changing the name of stealing from stealing to charity does not make stealing moral
If you believe taxation is theft, why not move to a location without it, perhaps Mogadishu in Somalia?
 
No, but it takes away from the subsidiarity and solidarity which is the warp and woof of human nature, and weakens human initiative and enterprise.
No, because of the denigration of subsidiarity and solidarity.
Are you therefore opposed to donating money to international charities?
The role of “Nanny State” or Welfare State is condemned for these reasons:
Condemned because as Bl JPII emphasises in *Centesimus Annus *#48: “By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.” [My emphasis].
The problem with a religion making a statement like that is that the statement appears falsifiable. All we have to do to make that incorrect is form a government which provides significant social assistance efficiently, without excessive bureaucracy (e.g. we could computerize and automate things.) However, even if this were accomplished, adherents to the religion would refuse to admit the success and claim that the costs were actually excessive or there was some loss of energy or the government actually didn’t meet the criteria of a SAS. Essentially this has *defined *a SAS to include those negative attributes, therefore I claim we are not talking about the same things; I propose a state which provides significant social assistance without those negative attributes. However, since a religious person would be incapable of admitting the existence of such a state (even if it actually did exist) because its existence would cast doubts on their religion itself, I am not surprised that a religious person would also refuse to believe that such a state was even possible.
 
Government is not a religion. Western government by its nature is limited to what it can claim and what it can do. That’s why we have a Constitution and a BILL OF RIGHTS. This was understood very clearly by the founders of this country–because of their experiences with the crown of England.

A religious government without limits is a theocracy. No matter what religion it enshrines.

A government without citizen recourse to rights independent of the government is at the very least an absolute monarchy, and maybe a totalitarian state.
I didn’t say the government was a religion, only that in this capacity the two perform similar functions.
 
Centrist,
I am sorry that I have been contenious with you. It appears you have put a lot of thought into this. Perhaps we should begin with a simple but extremely important step. Let us agree on what charity is. And before going any further in our discussion let us establish that. What is your definition of Charity? Where it comes from? What it consist of? What it produces? and Finally What makes Charity different from the other virtues? If we can establish that I am sure with your open attitude we can come to an agreement. Again, I am sorry for my acerbic reply in my latter post. Looking forward to your reply, The True Centrist.👍
In this context, I define a charitable organization as one which provides goods and services in order to satisfy a person’s basic needs. Basic needs include hunger, thirst, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care. By satisfying a person’s basic needs, that person is allowed to pursue goals that are “higher” than sustenance. Those may include seeking better education, spiritual awareness, contributing to the community, caring for their loved ones, securing a job that would allow them to provide for themselves, etc. I am not talking about charity as the virtue, but rather as the description of organizations which meets the above criteria.
 
TheTrueCentrist #51
The laws represent the will of the people. Therefore, a law which collects a tax to be used for charity is enacted through the free will of the people.
That does not make it a good law, and if subsidiarity is not recognised and accepted, it is a bad law.
#62: I contend that giving money to the government so that it may carry out charitable works is equivalent to giving money to a church so that it may carry out charitable works.
It is not if it is coercive, and does not recognise and accept subsidiarity.

The Church supports the welfare of all, and the State in Catholic Social Teaching is allowed only supplementary interventions for urgent reasons re the common good, and these must be as brief as possible to avoid encroachment on economic and civil freedom (CA #48), but when this is “vastly expanded” (CA #48) to a Welfare State, Bl JP II’s condemnation of the Welfare State follows.

Post #66 gives the reality from Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991, #48.

As well, Bl JPII in Centesimus Annus, 13: “According to *Rerum Novarum *and the whole social doctrine of the Church, the social nature of man is not completely fulfilled in the State, but is realized in various intermediary groups, beginning with the family and including economic, social, political and cultural groups which stem from human nature itself and have their own autonomy, always with a view to the common good. This is what I have called the ‘subjectivity’ of society which, together with the subjectivity of the individual, was cancelled out by ‘Real Socialism’.

CA #48:….”the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions,….supplementary interventions, which are justified by urgent reasons touching the common good, must be as brief as possible, so as to avoid removing permanently from society and business systems the functions which are properly theirs, and so as to avoid enlarging excessively the sphere of State intervention to the detriment of both economic and civil freedom.”

CA #49: “Apart from the family, other intermediate communities exercise primary functions and give life to specific networks of solidarity. These develop as real communities of persons and strengthen the social fabric, preventing society from becoming an anonymous and impersonal mass, as unfortunately often happens today. It is in interrelationships on many levels that a person lives, and that society becomes more ‘personalized’.”
 
If you believe taxation is theft, why not move to a location without it, perhaps Mogadishu in Somalia?
how does this response prove that taxes are a thing?
If one were to note that there is sickness in every country; would a reply of “so move to a country where there is no sickness” would that response be a foundation for some kind of assertion.

Sorry, you response baffles me. But I am of lttle knowledge regarding how to take from other s forcefulluy and call it charity
 
how does this response prove that taxes are a thing?
If one were to note that there is sickness in every country; would a reply of “so move to a country where there is no sickness” would that response be a foundation for some kind of assertion.

Sorry, you response baffles me. But I am of lttle knowledge regarding how to take from other s forcefulluy and call it charity
Taxation is an observable behavior, no? Whether or not it is equivalent to theft is besides the point. I observe that most countries, but not all, engage in taxation. Therefore, if someone finds that being taxed is objectionable (e.g. they believe it is theft) they may move to a location where the people do not engage in this behavior. Sickness is not a behavior nor is there a location a person could go to permanently avoid illness. Someone could go to the moon, for example, and avoid all bacteria, but that would not guarantee they would go completely without illness as not all illnesses are a result of external factors.
 
In this context, I define a charitable organization as one which provides goods and services in order to satisfy a person’s basic needs. Basic needs include hunger, thirst, shelter, clothing, education, and medical care. By satisfying a person’s basic needs, that person is allowed to pursue goals that are “higher” than sustenance. Those may include seeking better education, spiritual awareness, contributing to the community, caring for their loved ones, securing a job that would allow them to provide for themselves, etc. I am not talking about charity as the virtue, but rather as the description of organizations which meets the above criteria.
Thank you TruCentrist,
My other responses have been helter skelter as I have been in a rush to do things and your responses excite me. Not being desciplined I have quickly rsponsed without giving a lot of thought to them. Sorry.

Let us proceed. You say that charity “in this context”, does charity change its meaning in other context? I know we have not yet agreed on a definition yet, so perhaps we should first ask is “providing” the key word in defining charity? Yes or no will do.
 
Let us proceed. You say that charity “in this context”, does charity change its meaning in other context? I know we have not yet agreed on a definition yet, so perhaps we should first ask is “providing” the key word in defining charity? Yes or no will do.
An organization is not a person. It cannot love, care or hate, it cannot act on its own, it has no will of its own. Therefore, to say that an organization is “charitable” is derived from us anthropomorphizing the actions of organizations and finding them similar to human charity. Because of this, the “providing” is integral to an organization’s charitable status.

If I say that someone is charitable I could mean that the person spends a lot of time helping others, that that person is very loving, or both. I could be making an observation about a persons actions, about their personality, or both. In that case, context does matter.

I have provided a fairly clear definition of a charitable organization, what is your definition?
 
An organization is not a person. It cannot love, care or hate, it cannot act on its own, it has no will of its own. Therefore, to say that an organization is “charitable” is derived from us anthropomorphizing the actions of organizations and finding them similar to human charity. Because of this, the “providing” is integral to an organization’s charitable status.

If I say that someone is charitable I could mean that the person spends a lot of time helping others, that that person is very loving, or both. I could be making an observation about a persons actions, about their personality, or both. In that case, context does matter.

I have provided a fairly clear definition of a charitable organization, what is your definition?
Not to fast friend. It seems we agree “providing” is the key word in understanding Charity? You do agree then?
 
Not to fast friend. It seems we agree “providing” is the key word in understanding Charity? You do agree then?
I am not trying to define “charity” but rather “charitable organization.”

However, I do agree that order to constitute a charitable organization, an organization must provide the goods and services I previously described.
 
It is not merely nuanced – this is what really matters – what we do
with wealth.
As was stated in post #26: it “most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business.”
And this is how:
In the parable of the talents, Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30).

Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.
  1. “There is the emphasis on the ‘talent’, which is a measure of value.
  2. “The trading activity of the two stewards is important. Christ praises them for the energy, alertness, and perseverance they demonstrate in making a truly significant profit (they have doubled the original sum). There is a reference to accountability which is crucial to any business.
  3. “Then the nuanced criticism of fear: ‘I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground.’ This fear leads the lazy steward to avoid the risks and obstacles that are a key part of entrepreneurial work.
  4. “There is the clear reference to the financial system. The lazy steward at least could have placed the ‘money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.’ ”
“We can this affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’
and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].
Free enterprise and entrepreneurship have been lauded first by Christ in the Parables of the Dishonest Steward and The Talents, and by the Fathers of the Church, and by Popes in Centesimus Annus and Caritas in Veritate.
Whoa, slow down there.

kingjamesbibleonline.org/book.php?book=Matthew&chapter=25&verse=
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NIV

Yes, Matthew 25 has many economic and financial stuff references - investment, interest, inflation, cash-flow, … and partially important, for deeper understanding, is how the economic and financial stuff was back then, i.e. whether there was any or which form/s of
financial debt under which conditions, how did exchangers make or earn money or similar (i.e. how were they able, as described in the parable, to pay interest for deposited money - similary, how did the two servants double what they had), and other things.
Nevertheless, while Matthew 26:1 reiterates that the sayings were by Jesus, in Matthew 25:14-30 it does not explicitly say that the mentioned lord is Jesus, and the mentioned man could be interpreted as a businessman/enterpreneur (and, perhaps not only, his approach).
Talent perhaps is (also) a reference to “(group of) aptitudes”, though it is more likely that here it refers to unit of mass and value, expressed in “money”, albeit there is certainly more to these matters, and interestingly the heavy common talent is 58,9 kilogrames.

Matthew 25:14
“For [the kingdom of heaven is] as a man travelling into a far country, [who] called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.”

🙂 A bit funny in itself when you think about who is usually giving who whose goods.

Notice that while one gained five more talents, and one gained two more talents, both are cherished the same in 21 and 23, as they basically achieved the same.
“His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.”
which, by the way, sounds as promotion, partnership, and/or having them marry his daughters.

25-27, i agree that there is nuanced criticism of being afraid, and there is arguably also a case for not hamstering, though your conclusion there seems as an overgeneralization.

Matthew 25:28
“Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.”

in the view of that the one with eleven talents is more likely to double it again than the one who hid it.

Matthew 25:29
“For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.”

Probably simply reference to interest and inflation.

Matthew 25:30
“And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Sound and common sense advice considering e.g. when a craftman has to work also during night due to his own business situation and/or market/s situation, and can’t afford “employees” which don’t bring in profit, with “inner darkness” as reference to lack of money even for oil in lamps (in itself it may also be due to lack of oil, but i guess night shifts weren’t really usual), albeit in time of plenty it may also just be reference of common reasoning (e.g. only three spots for “employess” of a craftsman with others looking for work) with “outer darkness” perhaps as reference to “not knowing in world” and “inner darkness” as “not knowing within”.

So yeah, while there certainly is many about enterpreneurship, importance thereof, and in particular values thereof, there is also a bigger picture and details to it. And yeah, what happens with wealth, how it is used, has a role.
 
The problem with a religion making a statement like that is that the statement appears falsifiable. All we have to do to make that incorrect is form a government which provides significant social assistance efficiently, without excessive bureaucracy (e.g. we could computerize and automate things.) However, even if this were accomplished, adherents to the religion would refuse to admit the success and claim that the costs were actually excessive or there was some loss of energy or the government actually didn’t meet the criteria of a SAS. Essentially this has *defined *a SAS to include those negative attributes, therefore I claim we are not talking about the same things; I propose a state which provides significant social assistance without those negative attributes. However, since a religious person would be incapable of admitting the existence of such a state (even if it actually did exist) because its existence would cast doubts on their religion itself, I am not surprised that a religious person would also refuse to believe that such a state was even possible.
Do you mean socialism? if so, with or without anyone having to work?

See, when things don’t work out, it is usually the religious who keep things together. Not that there would be disgust about helping, but neither is there (much) enthusiasm about cleaning up mess in particular of others. Besides that, there are various aspects, such as if most or everyone are/is dependant on state (or on monopole for that matter) for most or everything, it sounds as if we were talking about feudalism. And regardless of whether organizations are viewed as form of entity or not, humans are not tamagochies, at least not exactly.

i do agree that no one should be let down, in both directions. While there is certainly a psychological aspect to it, in particular that it doesn’t seem to be in human nature to be contend with anything anyhow and to an extent really reasonably so, the main issue is about economics and about supply and demand - that is in an extreme food stamps are useless when there is no food or no shops where to get it and no means of transportation etc. similarly when there are plenty of taxes from various businesses but no production of any goods, with a related issue being that of when anyone is more or less voluntarily long-term in the role of a child (not counting particular circumstances, such as being tied) then such person is in the role of a child. And these issues being about a wider context, e.g. when it is known that many persons of a specialized profession will retire within a few years and such profession already having huge workloads, it seems common sense to look after such profession not dying out, making sure there are enough education opportunities and that they are filled, similarly vice versa, all touching the issues of who and what to which extent responsible for who and what.
 
I am not trying to define “charity” but rather “charitable organization.”

However, I do agree that order to constitute a charitable organization, an organization must provide the goods and services I previously described.
My friend,
Shouldn’t we first agree to what Chairty is before we ask ourselves what a charitable organization is?
I think you agree with me that “providing” is the essence of Charity. Yes? Just yes or no. Please:thumbsup:
 
I am not trying to define “charity” but rather “charitable organization.”

However, I do agree that order to constitute a charitable organization, an organization must provide the goods and services I previously described.
My friend,

Shouldn’t we agree what Charity is, before we ask ourselves what a charitable organizaiton is?

I think you agree that “providing” is the key word in addressing what Charity is - and not the essence? Yes? Just yes or no. Please:thumbsup:
 
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