Would liberals abort a 'gay' baby?

RyanML · Sep 10, 2008

fix:
A very poor argument, in my opinion. If there is a moral lesson to be learned about homosexuality from the Sodom story, it’s that homosexual gang rape is immoral. But heterosexual gang rape is immoral. Niether says anything about the morality of such acts between two loving, consenting adults. And if you look further in Genesis 19, you will see that Lot, deemed righteous in the Lord’s eyes, offered his two virgin daughters to the mob in place of his angelic guests. Most references in Scripture, including those made by Our Lord seem to suggest the sin of Sodom was their lack of hospitality, a virtue highly prized and expected in ancient cultures.

fix · Sep 10, 2008

RyanML said:
A very poor argument, in my opinion. If there is a moral lesson to be learned about homosexuality from the Sodom story, it’s that homosexual gang rape is immoral. But heterosexual gang rape is immoral. Niether says anything about the morality of such acts between two loving, consenting adults. And if you look further in Genesis 19, you will see that Lot, deemed righteous in the Lord’s eyes, offered his two virgin daughters to the mob in place of his angelic guests. Most references in Scripture, including those made by Our Lord seem to suggest the sin of Sodom was their lack of hospitality, a virtue highly prized and expected in ancient cultures.

Well, in all respect, one of the many problems with your position is that it contradicts the magisterial teachings on this matter.

RyanML · Sep 10, 2008

fix said:
Well, in all respect, one of the many problems with your position is that it contradicts the magisterial teachings on this matter.

I understand that my personal convictions on this matter are at odds with what the Church teaches. I do not mean to set myself up as my own “magisterium”. I admit that I may very well be wrong and if I am, I pray the Lord will be merciful with me. But I can not, in conscience agree with the official position of the Church. It’s not simply a matter of convenience, but true conviction. I have struggled with the issue going on 15 years and have gone from one extreme to the other and I feel like my currant position is more moderate. I have been through reparative therapy, read self help books, and exhausted many a spiritual director trying to pull through this issue to no avail. I believe God’s grace has led me to where I am at right now in my life and all I can continue to do is trust in Him. I know this wasn’t the point of the thread so my apologies for getting personal

. Prayers are always welcome

thistle · Sep 10, 2008

RyanML said:
I understand that my personal convictions on this matter are at odds with what the Church teaches. I do not mean to set myself up as my own “magisterium”. I admit that I may very well be wrong and if I am, I pray the Lord will be merciful with me. But I can not, in conscience agree with the official position of the Church. It’s not simply a matter of convenience, but true conviction. I have struggled with the issue going on 15 years and have gone from one extreme to the other and I feel like my currant position is more moderate. I have been through reparative therapy, read self help books, and exhausted many a spiritual director trying to pull through this issue to no avail. I believe God’s grace has led me to where I am at right now in my life and all I can continue to do is trust in Him. I know this wasn’t the point of the thread so my apologies for getting personal . Prayers are always welcome

Certainly our prayers are for you. I don’t like to think of you in a continuing state of heresy by rejecting the teaching of the Church.

Jennifer123 · Sep 10, 2008

RyanML said:
I understand that my personal convictions on this matter are at odds with what the Church teaches. I do not mean to set myself up as my own “magisterium”. I admit that I may very well be wrong and if I am, I pray the Lord will be merciful with me. But I can not, in conscience agree with the official position of the Church. It’s not simply a matter of convenience, but true conviction. I have struggled with the issue going on 15 years and have gone from one extreme to the other and I feel like my currant position is more moderate. I have been through reparative therapy, read self help books, and exhausted many a spiritual director trying to pull through this issue to no avail. I believe God’s grace has led me to where I am at right now in my life and all I can continue to do is trust in Him. I know this wasn’t the point of the thread so my apologies for getting personal . Prayers are always welcome

THank you for your charitable and honest response.

I do wish to point out though that our Church proclaims our consciences be properly formed through the moral teaching of the Catholic Church.

We may be politically free, strictly speaking, to dissent from Catholic teaching, but we are not morally free to dissent from infalliable truth.

We do not have the right to follow a improperly formed conscience as a way to avoid what we don’t want to believe. We are OBLIGED to shape our consciences to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Peace to you-

Tsuwano · Sep 10, 2008

First, Not all people who call themselves liberal support abortion and not all people who call themselves conservative oppose it. These labels don’t mean very much anyway and are usually used merely to divide rather than clarify political positions. Surely there is a better way to phrase your question. Secondly, when you use the adjective “gay” in front of baby, do you mean a happy baby? Again, certain labels such as “gay” or “straight” don’t mean very much in this context. Indeed, I would say it has no meaning at all.

RyanML · Sep 10, 2008

Jennifer123 said:
THank you for your charitable and honest response.

I do wish to point out though that our Church proclaims our consciences be properly formed through the moral teaching of the Catholic Church.

We may be politically free, strictly speaking, to dissent from Catholic teaching, but we are not morally free to dissent from infalliable truth.

We do not have the right to follow a improperly formed conscience as a way to avoid what we don’t want to believe. We are OBLIGED to shape our consciences to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Peace to you-

We may be obliged to shape our consciences to the teachings of the Church, but what is a Catholic to do if he CAN NOT agree. I know all, or at least most, of the arguments from both sides and the best answer I can come up with is that the issue of human sexuality is not as black and white as the Church would have us think. There’s a lot of gray area and I believe there is room for development. I have certainly prayed for guidance in this area for a LONG time and this is where i’m at right now. And for most people, homosexuality is just something they see on the news, read in the paper, or debate on forums but for me, well…i’m gay so it’s very much a reality. There’s so much I would love to do in the Church, but I can’t and it wouldn’t make it any easier to walk around pretending that I believe there is something disordered about who I am. I don’t mean to sound so depressing, because i’m actually happier than i’ve been in years. But I do truly love my faith and the fact that I can not participate in many of the things I want to be apart of is certainly a point of sadness for me. I’m asked all the time why in the world I stay with Rome. Why not go to the welcoming and affirming Episcopalian Church? Been there, done that. But the Eucharist, more that anything else, is what convinced me I could go nowhere else. The Church is my home. I’m a fish out of water any place else.

thistle · Sep 10, 2008

RyanML said:
We may be obliged to shape our consciences to the teachings of the Church, but what is a Catholic to do if he CAN NOT agree. I know all, or at least most, of the arguments from both sides and the best answer I can come up with is that the issue of human sexuality is not as black and white as the Church would have us think. There’s a lot of gray area and I believe there is room for development. I have certainly prayed for guidance in this area for a LONG time and this is where i’m at right now. And for most people, homosexuality is just something they see on the news, read in the paper, or debate on forums but for me, well…i’m gay so it’s very much a reality. There’s so much I would love to do in the Church, but I can’t and it wouldn’t make it any easier to walk around pretending that I believe there is something disordered about who I am. I don’t mean to sound so depressing, because i’m actually happier than i’ve been in years. But I do truly love my faith and the fact that I can not participate in many of the things I want to be apart of is certainly a point of sadness for me. I’m asked all the time why in the world I stay with Rome. Why not go to the welcoming and affirming Episcopalian Church? Been there, done that. But the Eucharist, more that anything else, is what convinced me I could go nowhere else. The Church is my home. I’m a fish out of water any place else.

May I ask if you do not understand the Church’s teaching on homosexuality or do you understand it but you disagree with it and reject it?

RyanML · Sep 10, 2008

thistle said:
May I ask if you do not understand the Church’s teaching on homosexuality or do you understand it but you disagree with it and reject it?

I believe I understand the Church’s teaching. And I understand that the Church is only being consistent in Her position on homosexuality, but I feel I have no choice but to disagree. Another major concern is my spiritual well being. I spent years under the wonderful spiritual direction from priests of the FSSP and other very conservative and traditional priests. It was also during this time that I read self help therapy books and started therapy with the St. Thomas Aquinas Clinic in California. But instead of the healing I was hoping for, it just led me into greater scrupulosity and deeper discouragement. It’s taken several years and a lot of prayer for God to bring me to where i’m at today and I am much happier and healthier.

Linda_Marie · Sep 10, 2008

The OP’s question is not so far-fetched. This has come up before, but with the conclusion that it is both immoral and repugnant to abort a baby if it can be determined that it is gay.

Bill would ban abortions of ‘gay’ fetuses
Posted: February 25, 2005
8:45 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

A Republican lawmaker in Maine has introduced a bill to prohibit abortions based on the sexual orientation of the unborn baby.

State Rep. Brian Duprey wants the Legislature to forbid a woman from ending a pregnancy because the fetus is homosexual.

Aborting a Gay Baby

news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece (my disclaimer - persons may find this article offensive, but it is the source of the Watson quote below)

The article says that Watson once told a British newspaper “Woman should have the right to abort her unborn child if tests could determine it would be homosexual.” This got me thinking, is that really unethical – to abort a child solely on the basis that the child has 100% chance of being homosexual? At first this may appear to be ethically ambiguous, but I believe I can prove why it is morally unethical.

renderuntocaesar.blogspot.com/2007/03/lord-save-my-gay-baby.html

…We must fight against the idea of aborting fetuses or human embryos identified as homosexual in orientation.

It would seem that at least some of those who support abortion believe that it is a woman’s right to choose, unless it can be proven that the baby is gay, then she may not abort because it would be discriminatory against gays. So, they must see the preborn gay baby as a human being with the right not to be discriminated against or killed.

Perhaps this could be the ‘foot-in-the-door’ to getting these rights acknowledged for all the preborn.

RyanML · Sep 10, 2008

Linda_Marie said:
The OP’s question is not so far-fetched. This has come up before, but with the conclusion that it is both immoral and repugnant to abort a baby if it can be determined that it is gay.

It would seem that at least some of those who support abortion believe that it is a woman’s right to choose, unless it can be proven that the baby is gay, then she may not abort because it would be discriminatory against gays. So, they must see the preborn gay baby as a human being with the right not to be discriminated against or killed.

Perhaps this could be the ‘foot-in-the-door’ to getting these rights acknowledged for all the preborn.

A very good point.

Jennifer123 · Sep 11, 2008

RyanML said:
We may be obliged to shape our consciences to the teachings of the Church, but what is a Catholic to do if he CAN NOT agree. I know all, or at least most, of the arguments from both sides and the best answer I can come up with is that the issue of human sexuality is not as black and white as the Church would have us think. There’s a lot of gray area and I believe there is room for development. I have certainly prayed for guidance in this area for a LONG time and this is where i’m at right now. And for most people, homosexuality is just something they see on the news, read in the paper, or debate on forums but for me, well…i’m gay so it’s very much a reality. There’s so much I would love to do in the Church, but I can’t and it wouldn’t make it any easier to walk around pretending that I believe there is something disordered about who I am. I don’t mean to sound so depressing, because i’m actually happier than i’ve been in years. But I do truly love my faith and the fact that I can not participate in many of the things I want to be apart of is certainly a point of sadness for me. I’m asked all the time why in the world I stay with Rome. Why not go to the welcoming and affirming Episcopalian Church? Been there, done that. But the Eucharist, more that anything else, is what convinced me I could go nowhere else. The Church is my home. I’m a fish out of water any place else.

I am so glad to know that you believe the Catholic Church is your home. It is indeed the only place on Earth capable of giving grace to those with such hard crosses to bear.

I do have to be honest here though and say that your stance isn’t a principled one, it is defiance in the face of Church teaching. Not to say that other people, possibly myself included in another area of Church teaching, aren’t doing the same thing, but in my case, I absolutely agree with the Church teaching, I just find myself incapable at this point to submit completely.

The Church teaching is relevant and true regardless of whether a gay gene is found or we discover more about sexuality. These things are not relevant and have no bearing on the Church’s stance on this issue. ACTIVE participation in homosexual activity is disordered.

Most people I know who can not acknowledge the truth of the Church’s teachings on certain subjects do not have a proper understanding of what the Church teaches and why she teaches it. It could be that your understanding of this issue may be deficient. It then falls upon you to know exactly what the Church teaches. Faithful Catholicism lets the Church lead even when our intellects and hearts are unsure.

Bless you.

Island_Oak · Sep 11, 2008

Exalt said:
Forum Tips 101:

#1: Provide a credible source for ridiculous claims. (In this case, your claim that about 90% of all babies with Downs Syndrome that are aborted.)

NTOT · Sep 12, 2008

melensdad said:
So let me ask a question, if being “Gay” is genetic, which is what Downs is, then **should a woman be allowed to abort a baby because it is “gay” **according to genetic testing?

No. Absolutely not. Women shouldn’t be allowed to abort their babies period!!

jean8 · Sep 12, 2008

RyanML said:
The term “homosexual” was invented in 1869 by Karl-Marie Kertbeny (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual) and there is no word in the ancient languages that would accurately translate as “homosexual”. In my opinion, any Bible translation that puts the word “homosexual” in Paul’s mouth is a faulty translation. Most likely the terms used in Romans and 1 Corinthians were aresenakoitai and malakoi which refer to male prostitution and promiscuity. Paul is not talking about people who have same sex attractions who fall in love with others of the same gender. As far as I know, there is no evidence ancient cultures had any concept of orientation. I think sexuality was viewed more in terms of behavior. And just as a side, in reference to the original post, I am gay and do not support abortion so I would consider it to be evil under any circumstances. God bless!

ryan,
If you profess to be gay, repent. See Rom.1:26–32
You can spin this issue anyway you wish, the Lord will have the last say on ‘it’

on the last day!

God bless,
jean8

NewUlm1976_2000 · Sep 12, 2008

Et_Cetera said:
What is this ridiculous thread? If someone were to make a post as politically one-sided, but in favor of the left, they would be banned. I don’t know why the moderators put up with this constant trolling of MT.

I agree, I cannot believe this has gone on 3+ pages. It is baiting of the worst kind.

RyanML · Sep 12, 2008

jean8 said:
ryan,
If you profess to be gay, repent. See Rom.1:26–32
You can spin this issue anyway you wish, the Lord will have the last say on ‘it’ on the last day!

God bless,
jean8

I do not “profess” to be gay!

It’s not like choosing your religion or political affiliation. It’s just a part of who I am. And I just presented Paul’s teaching in it’s social and historical context. There was no “spin”. The spin is in using Romans 1 to say that those with a homosexual orientation should repent. That is a gross misunderstanding of the overall context of this Scripture.

theistgal · Sep 12, 2008

Ryan, I agree with you - anyone who says you “choose” to be gay is simply wrong. AND - they’re ignoring what the Church teaches!

The Church specifically says that you are not sinning simply by “being” gay. The sin is having sexual relations - with anyone, male or female - out of wedlock. Period.

And as to the OP’s question, I’d welcome any baby, gay, straight or somewhere in between!

adstrinity · Sep 12, 2008

I only made it through the first page, but, this IS a legitimate question. This is why there is a GLBT Pro-Life sub-society. There was a commedian who did a song, “What If He’s Gay In The Womb,” in his stand up act.

Point being is we as Catholics believe that homosexuals can be born that way, so, I don’t see why there are so many uncharitable, ignorant posts saying this is a dumb question.

jean8 · Sep 12, 2008

RyanML said:
A very poor argument, in my opinion. If there is a moral lesson to be learned about homosexuality from the Sodom story, it’s that homosexual gang rape is immoral. But heterosexual gang rape is immoral. Niether says anything about the morality of such acts between two loving, consenting adults. And if you look further in Genesis 19, you will see that Lot, deemed righteous in the Lord’s eyes, offered his two virgin daughters to the mob in place of his angelic guests. Most references in Scripture, including those made by Our Lord seem to suggest the sin of Sodom was their lack of hospitality, a virtue highly prized and expected in ancient cultures.

ryan,
And what happened to Sodom and Gomorrha?
God destroyed it! Jude 7 reads “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorraha and the sorrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.”
Gods word. Do you believe this?

God bless,
jean8

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