Would Martin Luther approve?

[RAR]

I once read that Martin Luther would be shocked at what has come since the Reformation. I’ve read that he loved the Eucharist and may have even had a personal devotion to Mary. I think this is very interesting.

Thoughts?

 

[Tietjen]

I once read that Martin Luther would be shocked at what has come since the Reformation. I’ve read that he loved the Eucharist and may have even had a personal devotion to Mary. I think this is very interesting.

Thoughts?

Martin Luther:

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of our Lord and still a virgin."

Martin Luther:

“Undoubtedly, there is no one so powerful that, depending on his own intelligence, without Scripture, he would maintain that she did not remain a virgin.”

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, "

 

[O.S.Luke]

I suspect a lot of folks would be shocked today - not just Luther, but also Augustine, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Ambrose, John Chrysostom…

 

[2ndGen]

I must confess…I had Martry all wrong.

I’ve come to learn much about him (things I never learned on other websites) since coming here. I actually apologized to God for having slandered him when I spoke of him on “other” Christian websites.

One of my favorite quotes of his (which I can’t find to word correctly) goes something like:

“In an attempt to ride myself of one Pope, I’ve created a hundren more.”

 

[Righteousone]

Here are two more quotes from Luther, when he changed the words of the bible:
“If your papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.”

He also said:

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller’s donkey for they have never tried it.”

 

[2ndGen]

Here are two more quotes from Luther, when he changed the words of the bible:
“If your papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.”

He also said:

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller’s donkey for they have never tried it.”

Martin Luther said some of the most evil things in Christianity when he left The Church.

But he also said some of the most beautiful things any Christian has ever said:

**Mary the Mother of God

Throughout his life Luther maintained without change the historic Christian affirmation that Mary was the Mother of God:

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God … It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."1

Perpetual Virginity

Again throughout his life Luther held that Mary’s perpetual virginity was an article of faith for all Christians - and interpreted Galatians 4:4 to mean that Christ was “born of a woman” alone.

"It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a Virgin."2

The Immaculate Conception

Yet again the Immaculate Conception was a doctrine Luther defended to his death (as confirmed by Lutheran scholars like Arthur Piepkorn). Like Augustine, Luther saw an unbreakable link between Mary’s divine maternity, perpetual virginity and Immaculate Conception. Although his formulation of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was not clear-cut, he held that her soul was devoid of sin from the beginning:

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin…"3

Assumption

Although he did not make it an article of faith, Luther said of the doctrine of the Assumption:

"There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know."4

Honor to Mary

Despite his unremitting criticism of the traditional doctrines of Marian mediation and intercession, to the end Luther continued to proclaim that Mary should be honored. He made it a point to preach on her feast days.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart."5

"Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honoured? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing."6 Luther made this statement in his last sermon at Wittenberg in January 1546.**

 

[why_me]

The Luthern Church has harmed its members immensely in countries where it is a state religion. From my experience, the Luthern Church has relinguished its moral authority in the countries with large luthern populations. There is no condemnation of sexual immorality, abortion, living together, alcohol abuse etc. It has become a worldly religion that caters to modern times and not to the bible.

It is rather sad to see so many people misled into believing that one cannot change his or her spiritual circumstances or even attempt to strive toward holiness.

In the luthern church, anything goes as long as one does not hurt others.

Martin Luther would be very sad to see his church today.

 

[JonNC]

I once read that Martin Luther would be shocked at what has come since the Reformation. I’ve read that he loved the Eucharist and may have even had a personal devotion to Mary. I think this is very interesting.

Thoughts?

I believe you are correct, that he would be shocked, particularly with what is currently happening in some quarters of Lutheranism, although I think he would applaud the dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics since Vatican II.
Luther had a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is depicted with his Rosary beads well after the Reformation. ANother quote of Luther’s, supporting the real presence:
“Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss I shall drink blood with the pope”, referring to Zwingli’s, “this ‘represents’ my body…”

 

[RAR]

I believe you are correct, that he would be shocked, particularly with what is currently happening in some quarters of Lutheranism, although I think he would applaud the dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics since Vatican II.
Luther had a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is depicted with his Rosary beads well after the Reformation. ANother quote of Luther’s, supporting the real presence:
“Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss I shall drink blood with the pope”, referring to Zwingli’s, “this ‘represents’ my body…”

Thank you for that. I had previously read (Belloc, I think) that Zwingli took the Reformation to a new level… but, lest I throw dirt on the man’s grave, can anyone add to this?

RAR

 

[2ndGen]

I believe you are correct, that he would be shocked, particularly with what is currently happening in some quarters of Lutheranism, although I think he would applaud the dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics since Vatican II.
Luther had a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is depicted with his Rosary beads well after the Reformation. ANother quote of Luther’s, supporting the real presence:
“Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss I shall drink blood with the pope”, referring to Zwingli’s, “this ‘represents’ my body…”

Martin Luther was wayyyyy “Catholic”,
but when The Church refused to yield to him,
he was left with no option but to continue his rebellion in order to “save” himself.

New doctrines, new ideas on salvation, he’s “back” in God’s good graces (in his mind).

It’s like a theif who declares that the laws that placed him in jail are wrong, so he develops a new judicial system, appoints his own judges and “Poof!” is instantly exhonerated.

(King Henry the 8th comes to mind)

 

[why_me]

Martin Luther was wayyyyy “Catholic”,
but when The Church refused to yield to him,
he was left with no option but to continue his rebellion in order to “save” himself.

New doctrines, new ideas on salvation, he’s “back” in God’s good graces (in his mind).

It’s like a theif who declares that the laws that placed him in jail are wrong, so he develops a new judicial system, appoints his own judges and “Poof!” is instantly exhonerated.

(King Henry the 8th comes to mind)

And we can see the effects of this in the luthern countries. However, it may not be that much better in tradional catholic countrie but the catholic church does not support or condone such immorality and behavior.

 

[2ndGen]

Thank you for that. I had previously read (Belloc, I think) that Zwingli took the Reformation to a new level… but, lest I throw dirt on the man’s grave, can anyone add to this?

RAR

Zwingli…Marty wanted to burn him at the stake.

Yet this is what Zwingli said about Mary:

**Ulrich Zwingli:

"It was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the Son of God."11

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."12 Zwingli used Exodus 4:22 to defend the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

"I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary."13

"Christ … was born of a most undefiled Virgin."14

"It was fitting that such a holy Son should have a holy Mother."15

“The more the honor and love of Christ increases among men, so much the esteem and honor given to Mary should grow.”**

 

[RAR]

Zwingli…Marty wanted to burn him at the stake.

Who’s Marty?

 

[2ndGen]

All this just keeps bringing to mind:

Matthew 7
24
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Popes:

No. Name Reigned From-Reigned To

1. St. Peter 32-67
2. St. Linus 67-76
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) 76-88
4. St. Clement I 88-97
5. St. Evaristus 97-105
6. St. Alexander I 105-115…

“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be;
even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Ignatius of Antioch
Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2
(c. A.D. 110)

25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

No.
Name
Reigned From
Reigned To

Papacy…
#1. St. Peter 32-67 -------------->#265. Benedict XVI 2005-current

26
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Post Protestanism:
Divided Christianity
According to David Barrett et al, editors of the “World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200,” there are 34,000 separate Christian groups in the world today. “Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.”

religioustolerance.org/chr_divi.htm

 

[JonNC]

He also said:

“I know quite well how much skill, hard work, understanding and intelligence is needed for a good translation. They know it less than even the miller’s donkey for they have never tried it.”

Yes, his words at times were caustic, which does nothing good for us now. But on this subject, leaving aside for a moment the word “alone”, was Luther wrong to translate the bible? Wrong, not in the sense that he defied the Church in doing so, but rather in the sense of putting the scriptures in the hands of the laity. Was it a good thing? And if he hadn’t, how long, does everyone think, would it have taken for a translation to have taken place?

Blessings
Jon

 

[2ndGen]

Yes, his words at times were caustic, which does nothing good for us now. But on this subject, leaving aside for a moment the word “alone”, was Luther wrong to translate the bible? Wrong, not in the sense that he defied the Church in doing so, but rather in the sense of putting the scriptures in the hands of the laity. Was it a good thing? And if he hadn’t, how long, does everyone think, would it have taken for a translation to have taken place?

Blessings
Jon

He was his own pope.

In his religion, who are we to tell him what to do?

 

[JonNC]

He was his own pope.

In his religion, who are we to tell him what to do?

2nd Gen,
I’ll grant you that , but that wasn’t my question. Clearly, translating into the common language was a clear defiance of the Pope. No argument. My question is was it wrong for the laity to have the scriptures in their own language? And, when do you think the Church would have approved a common language Bible had Luther not done it?

 

[2ndGen]

My question is was it wrong for the laity to have the scriptures in their own language?

 

[JonNC]

"*Who’s? Ours or Luther’s laity?

If it’s ours, I can’t see how it’ would be wrong for us to have the Bible in our own language. However, under the supervision of The Church.

If Luther’s laity? I can’t answer that. I’m not one of them. As far as I’m concerned, that’s like me telling a Buddhist or a Muslim or Jew how to worship." *

Such an evasive answer!

* “When it had 73 Books!”*

Touche!

 

[2ndGen]

"*Who’s? Ours or Luther’s laity?

If it’s ours, I can’t see how it’ would be wrong for us to have the Bible in our own language. However, under the supervision of The Church.

If Luther’s laity? I can’t answer that. I’m not one of them. As far as I’m concerned, that’s like me telling a Buddhist or a Muslim or Jew how to worship." *

Such an evasive answer!

* “When it had 73 Books!”*

Touche!

:tiphat: