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Ion
Guest
Holy Mary didn’t die, she was assumed into heavens …
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Then either you or Pope JPII is mistaken.
You’ll have to excuse me if I go with the Catholic Church and the Pope.
"Pius XII did not intend to deny the fact of Mary’s death, but merely did not judge it opportune to affirm solemnly the death… Some theologians have in fact maintained that the Blessed Virgin did not die and and was immediately raised from earthly life to heavenly glory. However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death as her entry into heavenly glory. " JPII, 1997.
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Ion
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And you logic is flawed:
First you say JPII opinion like it was something that actually Pius XII said; but it was JPII opinion…
Second you use the expression “in other words” to promote your opinion like it was the opinion of JPII; Didn’t JPII say plainly what he wanted to say? Did he say “misunderstanding” ? Why misunderstanding?
There is nothing more clear than the doctrine.
The departure of Holy Mary is as unique as she as a person is.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Yes JPII gave a very clear interpretation of why Pius XII’s formal definition of the Assumption was purposely ambiguous wrt Mary’s death.
I attempted to make it even more crystal for misguided person’s like yourself who still cannot accept the unanimous tradition of the Church until the 1600s was that Mary aged and died.
You speak like “Assumption” and “death” are mutually exclusive terms.
This tells me you may have more research to do both historically and theologically before you will have anything significant to add to this discussion apart from your own subjective and unsupported personal assertions on the matter.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Memaw it seems you exhibit all the signs of one that the CCC would call “invincably ignorant.” Such a person is so caught up in their own personal opinion of things (“I cannot imagine”) that even should the Pope personally ring them up to advise them otherwise… they would still find excuse not to accept eg it was not the Pope etc etc. It seems you may not wholly love JPII, you only love your personal and slightly flawed ideal of him. Therefore I will not be “engaging” you further on this topic.
I repeat the obvious for the sake of rational readers with an open heart who can therefore draw their own conclusions from the available evidence.
(1) Pius XII’s Dogma of the Asssumption gave no definition either way regarding Mary’s death or not death. It simply repeated the ancient ambiguous phrase “when her earthly life was over”. The Dogma is about her Assumption, not her immortality or lack thereof.
Pope JPII publicly stated that Pius’s above Dogma did not broach the question of Mary’s death. He said, "With this formula … my Venerable Predecessor Pius XII, made no pronouncement on the question of Mary’s death."
(2) So what actually was Pius XII’s understanding of the matter of Mary’s death (or not) even though he did not pronounce on it? Pope JPII then gave his own confident understanding of Pius’s view on the matter and indeed of the Church as a whole and why Pius XII decided not to pronounce on the truth of Mary’s death: **“it was not opportune to affirm solemnly the death of the Mother of God”. **
There it is, in black and white. Pope JPII states that Pius XII does accept that Mary died but did not consider it the right time (“opportune”) to formally define that matter.
And where did the Magisterium (ie Popes Pius XII and JPII) get this “strange idea” that Mary died from? Well JPII makes this clear too: "Some … maintain that the Blessed Virgin did not die… However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death as her entry into heavenly glory."
So its really the opinion “Mary did not die” that is the new fangled mistaken modern one.
Yet MeMaw continues to object that the view that “Mary died” is a strange idea
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Memaw
Guest
I am sure Pope PiusXII prayed deeply about the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception before he wrote it, and he was truely guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet he never made the claim that you do.You talk about a “common tradition” and “some maintain,” well what is that except for someones opinion. Evidentily not the Pope’s. I would be very careful before I call anyone names as that may just be your “opinion.” I asked an Apologist this very question, "Did Mary die? and a priest answered and said the Church “NEVER” claimed she did. Look back on “Ask an Apologist” if you don’t believe me. God Bless. MemawMemaw it seems you exhibit all the signs of one that the CCC would call “invincably ignorant.” Such a person is so caught up in their own personal opinion of things (“I cannot imagine”) that even should the Pope personally ring them up to advise them otherwise… they would still find excuse not to accept eg it was not the Pope etc etc. It seems you may not wholly love JPII, you only love your personal and slightly flawed ideal of him. Therefore I will not be “engaging” you further on this topic.
I repeat the obvious for the sake of rational readers with an open heart who can therefore draw their own conclusions from the available evidence.
(1) Pius XII’s Dogma of the Asssumption gave no definition either way regarding Mary’s death or not death. It simply repeated the ancient ambiguous phrase “when her earthly life was over”. The Dogma is about her Assumption, not her immortality or lack thereof.
Pope JPII publicly stated that Pius’s above Dogma did not broach the question of Mary’s death. He said, **“With this formula … my Venerable Predecessor Pius XII, made no pronouncement on the question **of Mary’s death.”
(2) So what actually was Pius XII’s understanding of the matter of Mary’s death (or not) even though he did not pronounce on it? Pope JPII then gave his own confident understanding of Pius’s view on the matter and indeed of the Church as a whole and why Pius XII decided not to pronounce on the truth of Mary’s death: **“it was not opportune to affirm solemnly the death of the Mother of God”. **
There it is, in black and white. Pope JPII states that Pius XII does accept that Mary died but did not consider it the right time (“opportune”) to formally define that matter.
And where did the Magisterium (ie Popes Pius XII and JPII) get this “strange idea” that Mary died from? Well JPII makes this clear too: **“Some … maintain that the Blessed Virgin did not die… However, this opinion was unknown until the 17th century, whereas a common tradition actually exists which sees Mary’s death **as her entry into heavenly glory.”
So its really the opinion “Mary did not die” that is the new fangled mistaken modern one.
Yet MeMaw continues to object that the view that “Mary died” is a strange idea
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StrawberryJam
Guest
Memaw, don’t let anyone here get you down about Mary.
The bottom line is that it is okay to believe she never died.
Don’t feed the ones who want to drain you with more fuel.
Their argumentation won’t change that fact.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Yes at the moment the very recent and unusual idea amongst some of the Western Catholic faithful that Mary did not die is formally tolerated by the Magisterium.
It is also very clear that the Magisterium informally, confidently and continuously from the past still teaches in their personal public Catechesis that Mary did die.
Formal defined doctrine doesn’t drop out of the sky by sudden lightning-like inspiration of the Pope while he says his night prayers - and totally unrelated to the past. There is always a preceeding, informal, personal Papal history behind it and we ignore it at our peril. Expect Mary’s death to be formally defined one day in the future, the writing is on the wall.
Yes the recent and unusual position that Mary did not die is tolerated at the moment.
But to hold this novel and opposing position (that Mary did not die) **purely **on the grounds that the question was raised and settled by the Dogma of the Assumption is absurd
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Memaw
Guest
Oh really??? I’ll just wait and see, God Bless, MemawYes at the moment the very recent and unusual idea amongst some of the Western Catholic faithful that Mary did not die is formally tolerated by the Magisterium.
It is also very clear that the Magisterium informally, confidently and continuously from the past still teaches in their personal public Catechesis that Mary did die.
Formal defined doctrine doesn’t drop out of the sky by sudden lightning-like inspiration of the Pope while he says his night prayers - and totally unrelated to the past. There is always a preceeding, informal, personal Papal history behind it and we ignore it at our peril. Expect Mary’s death to be formally defined one day in the future, the writing is on the wall.
Yes the recent and unusual position that Mary did not die is tolerated at the moment.
But to hold this novel and opposing position (that Mary did not die) **purely **on the grounds that the question was raised and settled by the Dogma of the Assumption is absurd
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Memaw
Guest
I won’t, God never shared with us the very moment of Mary’s Assumption. No one was there and we will never know for sure what that precious moment was like until we get to Heaven. HE created Her Immaculate and death had no part of that. She is the Second Eve. Pure and Holy and Her Assumption into Heaven was between Her and Her GOD. I thank God for Mary and what she has done for us every day. She is God’s Masterpiece. We can never love Her or honor Her more than God does. She is the Mother of HIS SON. God Bless. Memaw
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Porknpie
Guest
Mary had to have aged or are you positing that she stopped aging at some point?
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Memaw
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Are you posting that She got old and wrinkled?? I am just saying 'WE DON"T KNOW FOR SURE. God Bless, Memaw
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Porknpie
Guest
Memaw,
We can reason that Mary in her human nature, grew from an infant to a child, to a young adult and to an adult…that she aged not only in chronological years but in appearance as well.
We have to reason and have to apply faith and logic. Otherwise, the same argument can be said that “we don’t know for sure that Christ was the Son of God.”
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twf
Guest
Memaw - you make it sound like Blue Horizon is pitting Blessed John Paul against Pope Pius. This is not the case. As shown in the quotes Blue Horizon posted, Blessed John Paul clearly said that Mary’s death is a fact - the universal ancient Tradition of the Church both East and West. Blessed John Paul stated that the idea that Mary did not die was unknown and unheard of prior to the 17th century. Ancient liturgical texts, the official prayer of the Church, testify to the belief that Our Lady shared in the death of Her Son. The Church teaches us that the Assumption of Mary points to our own sharing in the resurrection of Jesus…but this doesn’t make sense to me if we are to assume that Our Lady herself did not share in the resurrection. How can one share in His resurrection without first sharing in His death? It is true that the Church has not dogmatically defined that Our Lady died, and thus you are not bound as a matter of faith to believe that she did, but her death is testified to by ancient Tradition and by many popes and saints including Pope John Paul.
Pius XII himself testifies to Our Lady’s death even though he chose not to include it in the dogmatic definition. MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS is the Apostolic Constitution in which Pope Pius promulgated the Dogma of the Assumption. Within the text of this document he writes:
The above is just one example. There are many other references in the document to Our Lady’s death. Yes, Her death is not part of the dogmatic definition, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t part of the Church’s Tradition.
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Memaw
Guest
Adam and Eve were the only humans created as adults. If they had never sinned, they would never have grown old. All their children would have been born as babies and grown to adulthood in the normal way. But they would never have grown old. After the fall of Adam and Eve, two of the consequences of their sin was, growing old and death for all of us except Mary.
Even tho Mary was Concieved Immaculate in her mother’s womb, she was born a baby and grew to adulthood. That we know for sure. But for growing old and dying, why would she ever have to do that. She NEVER sinned. And we do not know that either took place FOR SURE!. That is all I am saying and that is all the Church has officially said. To think that God preserved Mary from Original sin but not it’s consecquences???
The same argument cannot be said about knowing for sure Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Sacred Scripture tells us over and over that HE IS!!! Read the Gospels! It says NOTHING about Mary growing old and dying. God Bless. Memaw
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Blue_Horizon
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Again this is a minority view that is no longer held Memaw.
Both Augustine and Aquinas, the pre-eminent Fathers/Doctors of the Church held that Adam and Eve aged even in Eden. It was the very purpose of the Tree of Life to remedy natural aging inherent to their human nature. There are various types of immortality. That of the human race before the Fall was the “weak version”, external remedies were required for it to be guaranteed. Just as Genesis implies.
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Memaw
Guest
I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree. I haven’t the slightest idea where your coming up with some of this stuff but lets have a little PROOF that the Church actually taught all that “weak version” notion!. Since you are the majority and have all the answers. God Bless, Memaw
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Blue_Horizon
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Memaw if you had the right attitude I would make more of an effort to help you understand Catholic teaching “under the hood” instead of the less than robust “owners guide” summary version you erroneously believe to be the same.
There is a deep need for you to do so than continue in the confident ignorance you demonstrate here. If you are a true truth seeker actually research the question for yourself. I have given you the theologians/doctors to look up. Indeed even quick search on this website will reveal their teaching. Just because you are ignorant of it doesn’t mean it isn’t standard fare or does not exist in plain sight if you just care to actually be humble and look.
I was trained by the Dominicans and have more theology under my belt than most parish priests - not that this fact will make much difference to your hurt pride but I can only offer the unusual background that God has blessed me with to help His Church. Its up to you whether you will run with it.
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Ion
Guest
minority=minority+1
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