Would serious alterations to the Missal Require Vatican III?

[Dirt]

This same statement could be said exactly as you have it even if everyone babbled in their own prayers and the whole thing was chaos, much less the simpler concept of a translation. The Church has recognized the advantage of having our intellect and understanding engaged during worship. I am not trying to say the vernacular is better than Latin, as that is a complex question. I am only saying that the idea that the vernacular is more confusing doesn’t ring true to me.

Much of this argument/discussion centers around the “active participation” language that came forth from the V-II documents( actually started much earlier). As numerous Liturgists and theologians, to include then Joseph +Cardinal Ratzinger have stated the active participation as worded in the documents has been taken out of context and driven to the extreme in some cases. We would do well to remember what the Mass really is;

"9 Q. For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered? A. The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honor Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favors, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory; (4) To obtain all the graces necessary for us, and hence it is called Impetratory.’
17 Q. In hearing Holy Mass which is the best way to practice true devotion? A. In hearing Holy Mass the best way to practice true devotion is the following: (1) From the very beginning to unite our intention with that of the priest, offering the Holy Sacrifice to God for the ends for which it was instituted. (2) To accompany the priest in each prayer and action of the Sacrifice. (3) To meditate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ and to heartily detest our sins, which have been the cause of them. (4) To go to Communion, or at least to make a spiritual Communion while the priest communicates."
Catechism of +Pope Saint Pius X

Mass is not for personal enjoyment, entertainment or communal gathering. It would seem to my humble eyes and ears that this attitude as stated above rarely shows up on Sunday.
I believe, just my personal uneducated opinion, that the Dumbing down of the Liturgy has had an effect on this current attitude we now see from both the Lay Faithful and some Preists.

I would strongly urge readers to buy or find a copy of “THE SPIRIT OF THE LITURGY”, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and read it. Twice!

Pax Christi

 

[pnewton]

Mass is not for personal enjoyment, entertainment or communal gathering. It would seem to my humble eyes and ears that this attitude as stated above rarely shows up on Sunday.
I believe, just my personal uneducated opinion, that the Dumbing down of the Liturgy has had an effect on this current attitude we now see from both the Lay Faithful and some Preists.

I would strongly urge readers to buy or find a copy of “THE SPIRIT OF THE LITURGY”, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and read it. Twice!

I have, and agree it is a tremendous work. I guess I am just of the opinion that having the vernacular is not a dumbing down. While, as you say, the Mass is not for our own enjoyment or entertainment ( I do not agree that there is a zero communal dimension), I still see the advantage of permitting those preferences that make uniting with the Sacrifice easier, whether it be the music, or a greater proliferation of the Mass in Latin.

 

[Dirt]

I have, and agree it is a tremendous work. I guess I am just of the opinion that having the vernacular is not a dumbing down. While, as you say, the Mass is not for our own enjoyment or entertainment ( I do not agree that there is a zero communal dimension), I still see the advantage of permitting those preferences that make uniting with the Sacrifice easier, whether it be the music, or a greater proliferation of the Mass in Latin.

I beleive we are probably in agreement on most of this issue. We will just have to pray that Our Bishops will continue to support the vision and focus of HH +Pope Benedict.

 

[Timothysis]

The Church has recognized the advantage of having our intellect and understanding engaged during worship.

And yet some still maintain that the parroting of Latin phrases which they do not understand (it is one thing to read the translation on the next page, but quite another to actually know what it is you’re saying) is paramount to engaging our hearts, minds and intellect during Mass in the language with which we are familiar. There shouldn’t be a rivalry between Latin or no Latin; the goal is to celebrate Mass in a worthy, reverent manner whether it be in Latin or not.

 

[ProVobis]

This same statement could be said exactly as you have it even if everyone babbled in their own prayers and the whole thing was chaos, much less the simpler concept of a translation. The Church has recognized the advantage of having our intellect and understanding engaged during worship. I am not trying to say the vernacular is better than Latin, as that is a complex question. I am only saying that the idea that the vernacular is more confusing doesn’t ring true to me.

pn, I think you misunderstood me. The confusion is when you cross vernaculars. And even within the same language, what are the odds everyone in church has the same vocabulary set everyone else has and has the same understanding of words and theology? Some, and I know a few, can even be intellectually offended by the over attempts of simplifications. I’m sure that’s not what the Council intended.

Back to standards. Within the US, theoretically everyone understands pounds, quarts, gallons, etc. If they sell these things overseas, chances are they’ll have to produce them in THEIR weights and measures. It is confusing because there are no worldwide standards, though in this case there are simple conversions. (There are no simple translations of languages.)

But what are translations in the first place and are they enough? Take a mathematical truth, π, for example. What is it? Chances are most will translate it as 3.14 but they haven’t told you what π is, how it’s derived, or what it’s used for. Even if they tell you it’s circumference/diameter, they have only told you how it’s measured but not what it is. So you’ll just have to accept π to be a truth. Just like transubstantiation in theology. Our human minds don’t understand it, but then again one only needs to believe it.

 

[Dirt]

The one point that I make for more latin in the Mass is my Parish. We have a large hispanic population, a medium sized Hmuong/VietNamese population, and the rest are anglo( Northern and Southern). The Parish offers Masses each week for each ethnicity, and on Holy Days the Lectors/hymns are evenly split between all three. I understand a little spanish, and no vietnamese. how does this attempt at inclusivity generate a unified Parish? How does my sitting through a reading in Vietnamese or a Viet Names siting through a reading in Spanish lead to more participation at Mass?
Oh, and our Priests are Mexican and Argentinian respectivley with english as their second language.
Would not Latin be more effective as a universal Liturgical language to unify our Parish if proper interpretation cards(such as the older EF Missals with the english equivalent beside the Latin) to the prayers were suplied to the Parishoners? Just wondering.

Pax Christi

 

[TheMc]

The one point that I make for more latin in the Mass is my Parish. We have a large hispanic population, a medium sized Hmuong/VietNamese population, and the rest are anglo( Northern and Southern). The Parish offers Masses each week for each ethnicity, and on Holy Days the Lectors/hymns are evenly split between all three. I understand a little spanish, and no vietnamese. how does this attempt at inclusivity generate a unified Parish? How does my sitting through a reading in Vietnamese or a Viet Names siting through a reading in Spanish lead to more participation at Mass?
Oh, and our Priests are Mexican and Argentinian respectivley with english as their second language.
Would not Latin be more effective as a universal Liturgical language to unify our Parish if proper interpretation cards(such as the older EF Missals with the english equivalent beside the Latin) to the prayers were suplied to the Parishoners? Just wondering.

Pax Christi

That’s exactly what the church says. “International Masses” should use latin. Don’t fear latin. Don’t hate latin. Embrace it, it’s awesome.

 

[Brendan]

It seems to but cannot be according to Veterum Sapientia:

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

I think you misunderstood my statement.

It was not that one modern lanaguage was superior to any other, but that the English translation is not where the other translations are in terms of liturgical and theological precision.

 

[ProVobis]

I think you misunderstood my statement.

It was not that one modern lanaguage was superior to any other, but that the English translation is not where the other translations are in terms of liturgical and theological precision.

I can’t disagree with you but there are limits to how each language can convey the Latin nuances, sentence structure, set of possible word equivalents, and thought flow. To say that a particular translation can be made better in terms of other translations may be possible but it’s subjective at best. How does one translate “transubstantiation” without compromising its meaning in any language, for example? Now English may(!) provide a lot of analytical tools to help explain it better than some other language, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the best language to help translate it into ONE English word which can replace the Latin in people’s minds; that’s the danger in using only translations. “And with your spirit” has true meaning only if one sees Et cum spiritu tuo (and not the French or Polish or “and also with you”) at the same time. I hope you can see my point.

 

[Dirt]

I can’t disagree with you but there are limits to how each language can convey the Latin nuances, sentence structure, set of possible word equivalents, and thought flow. To say that a particular translation can be made better in terms of other translations may be possible but it’s subjective at best. How does one translate “transubstantiation” without compromising its meaning in any language, for example? Now English may(!) provide a lot of analytical tools to help explain it better than some other language, but that doesn’t mean that it’s the best language to help translate it into ONE English word which can replace the Latin in people’s minds; that’s the danger in using only translations. “And with your spirit” has true meaning only if one sees Et cum spiritu tuo (and not the French or Polish or “and also with you”) at the same time. I hope you can see my point.

Hey ProVobis, am i mistaken or are/were some countries waiting for the english translation to be ratified so they could then translate from it? Thanks.

Pax Christi

 

[ProVobis]

Hey ProVobis, am i mistaken or are/were some countries waiting for the english translation to be ratified so they could then translate from it? Thanks.

Pax Christi

Unfortunately, there are rumors to that effect. I suppose they have no other choice if they don’t have any Latinists available to translate directly to those languages. But I wouldn’t read too much into it. Perhaps some day they will upgrade to the more Latinized version.

That said, it is somewhat ironic that those countries where the vernacular would definitely be of advantage per Vatican II are the least likely now to have the Latinists available to translate it for them. Such are the unintended consequences of removing Latin from the liturgy.