Would You Appreciate a Universal Indult?

[EddieArent]

Go see what St. Pius V says about an “indult.”

 

[aurora77]

tee_eff_em:

The Church is (thankfully) not a democracy – Why would anyone (in authority or otherwise) care what I support?

I agree. I’m always curious about the TLM v. NO debates I see on here. Having never attended a TLM, I don’t participate in any of the discussions. It really doesn’t matter what any of us think or want to see happen. This isn’t a democracy as tee says. I understand that we all have our preferences, but the only opinion that really matters is that of our Holy Father and the Church.

 

[cardenio]

msproule:

Mary, that was beautifully stated! Who could really argue against that?

I should have added this to my previous post, but I didn’t.

TLM vs. novus ordo is purely a matter of opinion. Where there is beauty, there is God; where there is God, there is beauty. I am probably not the first person to say that. But the novus ordo is also a beautiful thing. It is beautiful because God is there. If Mary can appear to Juan Diego as a Mexican lady, and to Bernadette as a French lady, God can come to us in a familiar way. God comes to us, and is close to us.

Perception of beauty diminishes with familiarity, and because of that I’ve had to dig a bit deeper to see the beauty in a novus ordo. But the beauty is still there. For some people, it is easier to see beauty in the novus ordo.

 

[totustuusmaria]

cardenio:

TLM vs. novus ordo is purely a matter of opinion. Where there is beauty, there is God; where there is God, there is beauty. I am probably not the first person to say that. But the novus ordo is also a beautiful thing.

I don’t think that that is entirely true.
In essence then the Sacrifice of the Mass is divided up into two roles: the giving and the recieving. There are certain things that don’t change as long as the mass is valid (and licit). These are the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and in the Gospel. Whether these graces are recieved depend on the induvidual.

However, one of the purposes of the Mass is to worship God. I just want to look at one part of that mass right now: the offeratory. There are no options for the offertory.

new prayers:

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation.Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made.It will become for us the bread of life.
-Blessed be God for ever.

by the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation.Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands.It will become our spiritual drink.
-Blessed be God for ever

Lord God, we ask you to receive us and be pleased with the sacrifices we offer you with humble and contrite hearts.
Washing his handsLord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin

Compare this with the old prayers:

Over the bread
Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses and negligences; on behalf of all here present and likewise for all faithful Christians living and dead, that it may profit me and them as a means of salvation to life everlasting.
-Amen.
Mixing the Water and Wine
O God, + who established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in His Divinity, who humbled himself to share in our humanity, Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord. who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the holy Spirit, one God, forever and ever. Amen.
Over the Chalice
We offer You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, humbly begging of Your mercy that it may arise before Your divine Majesty, with a pleasing fragrance, for our salvation and for that of the whole world. Amen.
In a humble spirit and with a contrite heart, may we be accepted by You, O Lord, and may our sacrifice so be offered in Your sight this day as to please You, O Lord God.
Come, O Sanctifier, Almighty and Eternal God, and bless, + this sacrifice prepared for the glory of Your holy Name
prayers over the incense
Through the intercession of Blessed Michael the Archangel, standing at the right hand of the altar of incense, and of all His elect may the Lord vouchsafe to bless + this incense and to receive it in the odor of sweetness. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
May this incense blessed by You, arise before You, O Lord, and may Your mercy come down upon us
Let my prayer, O Lord, come like incense before You; the lifting up of my hands, like the evening sacrifice. O Lord, set a watch before my mouth, a guard at the door of my lips. Let not my heart incline to the evil of engaging in deeds of wickedness…
May the Lord enkindle in us the fire of His love and the flame of everlasting charity. Amen
While washing his hands
I wash my hands in innocence, and I go around Your altar, O Lord, giving voice to my thanks, and recounting all Your wondrous deeds. O Lord, I love the house in which You dwell, the tenting place of Your glory. Gather not my soul with those of sinners, nor with men of blood my life. On their hands are crimes, and their right hands are full of bribes. But I walk in integrity; redeem me, and have pity on me My foot stands on level ground; in the assemblies I will bless You, O Lord.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
Accept, most Holy Trinity, this offering which we are making to You in remembrance of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, Our Lord; and in honor of blessed Mary, ever Virgin, Blessed John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, and of (name of the Saints whose relics are in the Altar) and of all the Saints; that it may add to their honor and aid our salvation; and may they deign to intercede in heaven for us who honor their memory here on earth. Through the same Christ our Lord.
-Amen.

So what? It’s a bit longer? Look at the language! The words tell what the intention of the actions are.

 

[cardenio]

totustuusmaria - Hello to a fellow Michigander!

I have never been to a TLM - I used to say that I have gone to one, when I was little, but recently I found out that it was a novus ordo with a sprinkling of Latin (Agnus Dei, sanctus, etc.).

I have been to a novus ordo in Spanish, and it did have some of that “I don’t understand” effect that I described in my first reply to this post. And I get my love of incense from the Holy Thursday and Good Friday services (and the Easter Vigil, but we usually go Sunday morning) at my church, chrism from Holy Thursday. My love of languages is intrinsic. My love of the whole culture of Catholicism came mostly from this forum.

But I hold to my point: where there is God, there is beauty. I add that there is more to life than beauty, and there is more to worshipping God than beauty. But, some people worship God better at a novus ordo.

There is a pdf file of my church’s bulliton here. The September 25 one, on page two, talks about a TLM in the area. Unfortunately, it is my brother’s birthday, October 16, and he is coming home that weekend, and he wants to hear our new priest. (New as of June, but my brother hasn’t been home in a while.) So, I won’t be going. But I want to very badly. Oh, I need to get my driver’s license! I will be 17 in November!

Random thought: Does it strike anybody else as funny that the phrase “traditional latin mass” is in English, while “novus ordo” is in Latin?

 

[bear06]

Random thought: Does it strike anybody else as funny that the phrase “traditional latin mass” is in English, while “novus ordo” is in Latin?

Some are going to be losing sleep over this one!

 

[bear06]

totustuusmaria - Hello to a fellow Michigander!

I have never been to a TLM - I used to say that I have gone to one, when I was little, but recently I found out that it was a novus ordo with a sprinkling of Latin (Agnus Dei, sanctus, etc.).

I have been to a novus ordo in Spanish, and it did have some of that “I don’t understand” effect that I described in my first reply to this post. And I get my love of incense from the Holy Thursday and Good Friday services (and the Easter Vigil, but we usually go Sunday morning) at my church, chrism from Holy Thursday. My love of languages is intrinsic. My love of the whole culture of Catholicism came mostly from this forum.

But I hold to my point: where there is God, there is beauty. I add that there is more to life than beauty, and there is more to worshipping God than beauty. But, some people worship God better at a novus ordo.

There is a pdf file of my church’s bulliton here. The September 25 one, on page two, talks about a TLM in the area. Unfortunately, it is my brother’s birthday, October 16, and he is coming home that weekend, and he wants to hear our new priest. (New as of June, but my brother hasn’t been home in a while.) So, I won’t be going. But I want to very badly. Oh, I need to get my driver’s license! I will be 17 in November!

Random thought: Does it strike anybody else as funny that the phrase “traditional latin mass” is in English, while “novus ordo” is in Latin?

 

[bear06]

But I hold to my point: where there is God, there is beauty. I add that there is more to life than beauty, and there is more to worshipping God than beauty. But, some people worship God better at a novus ordo.

I have been to the TLM and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I worship much better at the “Novus Ordo”. I have 6 kids (so far) and the 2 littlest keep me hopping. I rarely catch the Consecration at the TLM and rarely miss it at the “Novus Ordo” while trying to keep my kids hog-tied. Some day they’ll be model citizens like the older ones but for now, the “Novus Ordo” is the Mass for me and I feel immensely blessed to have it.

 

[cardenio]

bear06:

Some are going to be losing sleep over this one!

Don’t you just love being Catholic?

 

[Santa_Cruz]

Yes, I truely do.

 

[James0235]

cardenio:

There is a pdf file of my church’s bulliton here. The September 25 one, on page two, talks about a TLM in the area. Unfortunately, it is my brother’s birthday, October 16, and he is coming home that weekend, and he wants to hear our new priest. (New as of June, but my brother hasn’t been home in a while.) So, I won’t be going. But I want to very badly. Oh, I need to get my driver’s license! I will be 17 in November!

I’m sorry that you won’t get a chance to go.

According to the bulletin the Mass will be offered by Bishop Carl Mengeling of the Diocese of Lansing. That is really cool.

I don’t know anything about Bishop Mengeling but it seems to me that the Bishops who openly and actively support the TLM seem to be among the most faithful and orthodox in the country. Burke, Olmstead, and Bruskewitz come immediately to mind.

I’m not saying they are better bishops because of their support of the TLM. But it seems that supporting the TLM comes naturally from being a good bishop.

Conversely, bishops who refuse to allow the TLM or who go out of their way to make it difficult for the faithful to attend seem to be at the bottom of my list of good, faithful, orthodox bishops. Mahoney and Loverde come immediately to mind.

In the diocese of Columbus, Bishop Campbell has not yet been here for a year but I hear he is doing lots of great things behind the scenes. I don’t know his feeling about the TLM specifically but last weekend he did concelebrate a Maronite Divine Liturgy in his Cathedral. The Maronites in town do not yet have their own parish. They are a Mission and have Divine Liturgy twice a month in one of the local diocesan parishes. Bishop Campbell’s Divine Liturgy at the Cathedral gave them a 3rd Divine Liturgy this month. I think that is pretty cool

James

 

[totustuusmaria]

totustuusmaria - Hello to a fellow Michigander!

I have never been to a TLM - I used to say that I have gone to one, when I was little, but recently I found out that it was a novus ordo with a sprinkling of Latin (Agnus Dei, sanctus, etc.).

I have been to a novus ordo in Spanish, and it did have some of that “I don’t understand” effect that I described in my first reply to this post. And I get my love of incense from the Holy Thursday and Good Friday services (and the Easter Vigil, but we usually go Sunday morning) at my church, chrism from Holy Thursday. My love of languages is intrinsic. My love of the whole culture of Catholicism came mostly from this forum.

But I hold to my point: where there is God, there is beauty. I add that there is more to life than beauty, and there is more to worshipping God than beauty. But, some people worship God better at a novus ordo.

There is a pdf file of my church’s bulliton here. The September 25 one, on page two, talks about a TLM in the area. Unfortunately, it is my brother’s birthday, October 16, and he is coming home that weekend, and he wants to hear our new priest. (New as of June, but my brother hasn’t been home in a while.) So, I won’t be going. But I want to very badly. Oh, I need to get my driver’s license! I will be 17 in November!

Random thought: Does it strike anybody else as funny that the phrase “traditional latin mass” is in English, while “novus ordo” is in Latin?

HELLO FELLOW DIOCESE OF LANSINGER!
Bishop Mengling is celebrating the Trid Mass??? Wow! He is my bishop. Unfortunately I’m in Europe right now, so I haven’t be able to attend.

I like Bishop Mengling a lot. He has been quite supportive of my home Parish (Christ the King) despite a lot of pressure against him. I also have attended All Saints frequently. Thank you for telling me this. I don’t get the news so much since I’m not in the US.

About the “Where there is God there is beauty” and the “some people worship God better at the Novus Ordo” statements; it is absolutely true that God is Beauty in and of Himself. However, because God is so beautiful, we have an absolute requirement to surround him with beauty. Here’s a quick example of something where God is that is not beautiful: a black mass. There are (validly ordained) priests who say the mass which (according to St. Thomas) is a valid mass, but the sole reason why they say the mass is not to glorify God but rather to desecrate the Blessed Sacrement. In that case, God is beautiful, but the “mass” is not beautiful specifically because it doesn’t give God the glory that is his due. The reason why some people find it easier to worship at the Novus Ordo is because 1) of familiarity and 2) because some things in the Novus Ordo genuinely are better for people. The New Mass does to a certain extent fullfill the wishes of Sacrosanctum Concilium, and where it does, modern people really do find it more “approachable” in a legitimate way. The problem with the New Mass isn’t what it does which is right and good, but rather what it does that doesn’t adequately express the reality that is going on. In any case, that’s my two cents.

Don’t think, by the way, that I believe the Novus Ordo to be the same as a Black Mass. I attend the Novus Ordo and I would never attend any Black Masses. All that I’m saying is that I don’t believe the Novus Ordo adequately reflects the Glory of God or the reality of what’s happening on the altar.

About your last comment, I think that the reason is because “New Order” is already taken and “New Ordo of the Mass” is combersome. Some people do use Paul VI’s phrase and call it simply the “New Mass,” and others call it the “Missa Normativa” or the “Normanitive Mass.” That’s just the way it developed. No sleep lost here.