Would You Attend This Mass?

[KellyPalmer]

Nope, I didn’t. You are quoting me out of context. I said that as long as parents exercised some basic common sense and took some simple precautions things would be fine. And what were those simply precautions? I addressed that more than once earlier in that same thread when I responded to the OP who was nervous about taking her child to Mass.

That’s not out of context, that’s your entire post. If anything, reading the rest of your posts explain even more clearly what I am saying. Yes, you over and over again stated that parents should bring children to Mass while at the same time suggesting that they should only do so if they don’t take away the rights of others. Yet you repeatedly stated that everyone being and providing silence was a something that you were entitled to and you disagreed with anyone who said it wasn’t a right - forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9846742&postcount=76

It’s physically impossible for us to bring our children to Mass while taking simple precautions ***and ***also provide you, myself and my child with the silence you repeatedly stated was required. Even when we take those precautions, there will be noise. When I brought this up to you, you didn’t have an answer. When I brought up quotes showing that the same documents you provided, stated that the participation of “all” was more important than anything else (including silence), you still stuck to insisting that you being entitled to silence was more important than everyone (including babies and children) being in Mass.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Hardly mandating that parents keep their kids at home.

I didn’t claim you mandated that parents keep their kids at home. You said that children and babies should only be in Mass if they can provide you, themselves and their parents with silence.

 

[jwinch2]

You are the one who made the claim so the burden of proof is on you. Please provide any evidence to support your claim that “for over a thousand years” there was “huge amounts of silence” in the Mass and “children and parents managed to make it”!

Any study of the rubrics or simply watching a video of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, which was relatively unchanged from the time of Pope Pius V, will show this quite easily. This tutorial on the EF of the Mass put together by the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius discusses it quite clearly: sanctamissa.org/en/faq/active-participation-of-the-faithful-in-the-traditional-latin-mass.html

The same thing can be seen in other ancient rites, such as the Dominican, Cistercian, etc.

 

[Michael57]

Good to know. I hadn’t considered how children might react to silence.

Our Priest and Deacon always emphasize the Sacred Silence during Mass, and we have many families with small children. Some are full of life to over-flowing, and always a joy.

Their reaction? Sacred Silence (with very rare exception), even those with children that are full of life to over-flowing.

Father, I would go out of my way to visit your Church for Mass if you were to have one as you describe.

God bless you for it, I hope to hear your good report of it someday. And if I am up that way to visit relatives, I’d be happy to attend.

 

[jwinch2]

I didn’t claim you mandated that parents keep their kids at home. You said that children and babies should only be in Mass if they can provide you, themselves and their parents with silence.

If you wish to continue this discussion, I respectfully suggest that we take it back to the thread where it started, rather than derailing Fr. Jones’ thread further. We are not really supposed to drag arguments from one thread to another. In addition, we are not supposed to target each other on CAF, but rather the argument presented. For my part in this, I apologize and will endeavor to stick to the argument, rather than the arguer, should you wish to continue this discussion in the other thread.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Any study of the rubrics or simply watching a video of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, which was relatively unchanged from the time of Pope Pius V, will show this quite easily. This tutorial on the EF of the Mass put together by the Canons Regular of Saint John Cantius discusses it quite clearly: sanctamissa.org/en/faq/active-participation-of-the-faithful-in-the-traditional-latin-mass.html

The same thing can be seen in other ancient rites, such as the Dominican, Cistercian, etc.

This doesn’t back up what you claimed. First, it doesn’t say that there were huge amounts of silence. Second, it doesn’t discuss over a thousand years. Third, it doesn’t say anything about children and parents. Does this mean you can’t even provide one source showing what you claimed? If this was happening for over a thousand years, surely there would be plenty of sources for you to chose from.

 

[tuscany]

**Silent times during the Mass ? ! ?

Like where a person can actually pray before the crucifix and concentrate only on that ?

You mean where a person can actually spend a few minutes in quiet with
Our Lord after Communion ?

Ahh, the sound of occasional silence…

Father, we need 200,000,000,000 more of you !**

 

[FrStevenJones]

I didn’t claim you mandated that parents keep their kids at home. You said that children and babies should only be in Mass if they can provide you, themselves and their parents with silence.

Certainly we can all agree that children and babies should be at Mass whenever possible, and parents should do their best to prevent their children from disturbing other worshipers. We should not expect perfect behavior from children, nor lax behavior from parents!

 

[JM3]

My understanding of the GIRM is that the procession is not required during the Offertory, but is an option, which would seem to allow for silence in the event that the procession was not done. However, its been so long since I looked at that particular instruction that I may be remembering it incorrectly. Am I correct on that?

Yes, you are correct. I will just point out…

Girm 73…nevertheless the rite of carrying up the offerings still retains its force and its spiritual significance.

&

Redemptionis Sacramentum

70… In order to preserve the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy, in any event, the external offerings should be brought forward in an appropriate manner.

 

[FrStevenJones]

Our Priest and Deacon always emphasize the Sacred Silence during Mass, and we have many families with small children. Some are full of life to over-flowing, and always a joy.

Their reaction? Sacred Silence (with very rare exception), even those with children that are full of life to over-flowing.

Father, I would go out of my way to visit your Church for Mass if you were to have one as you describe.

God bless you for it, I hope to hear your good report of it someday. And if I am up that way to visit relatives, I’d be happy to attend. /QUman?1

Thank you for your comments, I am so pleased with the enthusiastic responses of so many here!

 

[jwinch2]

Yes, you are correct. I will just point out…

Girm 73…nevertheless the rite of carrying up the offerings still retains its force and its spiritual significance.

&

Redemptionis Sacramentum

70… In order to preserve the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy, in any event, the external offerings should be brought forward in an appropriate manner.

Thanks for that.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Certainly we can all agree that children and babies should be at Mass whenever possible, and parents should do their best to prevent their children from disturbing other worshipers. We should not expect perfect behavior from children, nor lax behavior from parents!

Yes, we all seem to agree on that part!

I just see how hard it is for families and how many of my peers have left the church. My Catholic grandparents have over 20 grandchildren and I am literally the only one left in communion with the Church. The only one. They all left when they started having kids. Many of them attend Protestant services which are more welcoming to children, some left faith altogether. These last 10+ years as a mother and military spouse have been very difficult when it comes to attending Mass and frankly, difficult to be Catholic with no support from the Church or any Church community. It breaks my heart when I hear other parents talking about their literal “fear” of bringing their babies and young children to Mass.

 

[FrStevenJones]

Yes, you are correct. I will just point out…

Girm 73…nevertheless the rite of carrying up the offerings still retains its force and its spiritual significance.

&

Redemptionis Sacramentum

70… In order to preserve the dignity of the Sacred Liturgy, in any event, the external offerings should be brought forward in an appropriate manner.

I believe this is saying that if you have an offertory procession, it should be apropriate and dignified. But the GIRM is clear that, while it is encouraged, a procession is not required.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending review by moderator Jean Anthony

 

[FrStevenJones]

Hello, our moderator has kindly reopened the thread!

I am so pleased at so many positive comments you’ve made about this idea. Blessings on all who’ve posted! It is really useful for me, as a priest, to get feedback on thesesorts of ideas, frim the “people in the pews”.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

A great idea, Father. I certainly would love to attend

 

[OraLabora]

Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not

1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring

What do you think?

That’s more or less what I already attend at a Benedictine monastery, except for ad orientem and communion kneeling. The nature of concelebration by several monks does not lend itself to ad orientem, and there is no communion rail, communion is given at the cloister gate separating the choir from the nave.

And the Propers and ordinary are chanted in Latin (and Greek for the Kyrie of course) all according to the 1974 Graduale Romanum for the OF. That does include an Offertory antiphon though.

 

[FrStevenJones]

That’s more or less what I already attend at a Benedictine monastery, except for ad orientem and communion kneeling. The nature of concelebration by several monks does not lend itself to ad orientem, and there is no communion rail, communion is given at the cloister gate separating the choir from the nave.

And the Propers and ordinary are chanted in Latin (and Greek for the Kyrie of course) all according to the 1974 Graduale Romanum for the OF. That does include an Offertory antiphon though.

I wouldn’t want a long hymn at the offertory but a brief chanted antiphon from the Graduale would be fine. The Roman Missal doesn’t include an offertory antiphon, so you have to get it from the Graduale. You probably know this already. I’ m going for plenty of reflective silence!

 

[Joe_5859]

Hello, our moderator has kindly reopened the thread!

I am so pleased at so many positive comments you’ve made about this idea. Blessings on all who’ve posted! It is really useful for me, as a priest, to get feedback on thesesorts of ideas, frim the “people in the pews”.

I’m not sure if the people at CAF are representative of the people in every pew. But I agree that what you have outlined sounds great.

 

[FrStevenJones]

I’m not sure if the people at CAF are representative of the people in every pew. But I agree that what you have outlined sounds great.

True enough. But for the kind of feedback I’m asking for, a more devoted and knowledgeable group, found here at CAF, is desirable. I suspect that some of the “typical Sunday Mass crowd” might need a little more coaxing and education to be accepting of these ideas!