Would You Attend This Mass?

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It is a good thing to try to have a more reverent Mass, and to gradually introduce changes. If too many things are introduced too soon, the parishioners may become concerned that the priest is spiritually vain and “holier-than-thou”. They might become concerened about the reasons behind the pastor’s desire to make these good changes. Hopefully the priest will heed Pope Francis’s advice, and be just as good and holy as he is liturgically correct:
catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/06/14/dont-boast-of-your-record-of-service-pope-francis-urges-priests/
 
Something we all need to keep in mind regardless of our backgrounds is that all Priests have spend a number of years studying liturgy, reading the documents the Church has put forth, the Church Fathers, the Saints, spending more time in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament than most lay can imagine. And as Priests they are the spiritual fathers for their assigned parish. They are responsible for the souls of their parishioners, and if through much prayer and discernment feel that making permitted changes to the Mass in order to better convey the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the reverence due to Him. Yes, it is true some Priests take more interest in the liturgy than others, but too often we forget what the Mass is. The Mass is not meant to make us feel good, it is meant to worship God, therefore focusing on HIM not on ourselves. The majority of people in parishes do nothing with the faith outside of Sunday Mass so we cannot expect them to fully understand the mystery of the Mass. As Fr. John Hardon said “Without prayer, there is not salvation.” This means a daily prayer life, which can only be found in silence. Implementing silence into the Mass is a stepping stone to help parishioners find the inviting voice of God in silence which is increasingly difficult to hear in constant noise and distractions found in everyday life.

Father, I support the changes you intend to make. There are many who long for such changes. You may have a battle at your hands, but you will find you strength in Christ through his Blessed Mother.
 
Father,

I hope you are taking note of the enthusiasm here. It is but a microcosm of the yearnings out there among the laity, many of whom just assume that you represent such a minority that their yearnings will not be met in their lifetimes. Please convey this to your brother priests. 🙂

And keep in mind that the majority of currently practicing Catholics have never even seen anything approaching a TLM, so they have no other option in their experience – until someone generously gives them an option.

Thank you for all of your faithful service to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

And may God richly Bless you.
That’s quite a statement, and an assumption. You know this how? From an online forum?
Online forums are not the real world.
 
Right now I am Parochial Vicar in my parish. Probably in a year I will be a pastor and able to make some significant liturgical choices . I would like to offer an OF liturgy that uses legitimate options that are not often used. I am interested if you would be would desire to attending this type of iturgy, and why/why not
  1. No hymns: instead we chant the entrace antiphon and communion antiphon. Silence during the offertory.
  2. Ad Orientem for Liturgy of the Eucharist. Liturgy of the Word facing the people, of course
  3. Use of communion rail (if available) to receive kneeling, on the tongue. Otherwise kneeler for those who wish to use it when receiving
  4. Chanted Latin Ordinaries (Gloria, Creed, Sanctus, Agnus Dei), other prayers in vernacular
  5. No communion hymn, just chant communion antiphon+ but post-communion reflection sung by choir or cantor
  6. Lots of silence (offertory, communion) rather than filling those times with hymns
  7. Oh and a really awesome homiily 10-15 minutes with lots of energy and hopefully inspiring 🙂
What do you think?
Here’s my honest response, and no offence intended. If I attended a mass like that, I would not be back again unless I had absolutely no other choice in the matter. As it is I think a sense of community and belonging is at best extremely frayed in the Catholic Church. I find the culture that has developed of “I’m just at mass for communion and the graces I will receive and have no interest in anyone else” to be extremely mercenary, cold, and isolating. I appreciate that there are people who simply want to focus on adoring the Sacrament of the mass and are interested in nothing else at church. I see many people at my church who come to mass, don’t say a word to anyone, receive their communion and are straight out the door. Unfortunately I think the Church in America is paying dearly for this. People feel cut off from one another, unsupported, unimportant, not welcomed, and confused. Anyone visiting a Catholic mass for the first time will have almost no idea what is going on. I think of my wife, who was a non-denominational Christian, who has just recently begun to feel in any way accepted or welcomed at a Catholic mass. And at our parish we actually take a moment to greet everyone around us before mass begins, shake hands and hug at the sign of peace, and hold hands during The Lord’s Prayer while we sing it. Personally I find that all to be very beautiful. It creates at least an expression that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and that is more important than petty differences. Again I see what the appeal of a mass like you mentioned has, but worry about the toll such masses ultimately take on the Church and the community.
 
That’s quite a statement, and an assumption. You know this how? From an online forum?
Online forums are not the real world.
Having been privileged to learn just a tiny part of this poster’s background, and after following her intelligent and insightful posts on this forum, I find your comments rather rude and off-the-mark!
 
Tigg,

I know I am new here, and you know Elizabeth502 better than I, but I also recognize “lobbying” when I see it. Everyone, no matter how grounded, and true their intents are, has a tendency to lobby for their desired results. JustaServants response may have been a bit on the harsh side, but he/she is correct in that Elizabeth502 is making a big presentation of the enthusiastic responses that the thread has returned, while making no mention of the “less than enthusiastic” responses. That’s called lobbying. I can just as easily take her post and replace a few words to create my own lobbying effort to show that “most people” are NOT enthused by the notion of this style of Mass. It’s not new. Politicians do it ALL the time. And we all do it too.

Her background and her intelligent and insightful posts on this forum do not provide insurance that she isn’t susceptible to this type of desire to win the debate any more than it is for anyone else. We all want to “pick the winning horse”. It is in our fallen nature!

And remember, Justaservants response isn’t poking at her opinion provided. Everyone has given an opinion. But she then gathered up the opinions and declared “side A” the winner. That tends to rub some people wrong. ( the side B folks )
 
Here’s my honest response, and no offence intended. If I attended a mass like that, I would not be back again unless I had absolutely no other choice in the matter. As it is I think a sense of community and belonging is at best extremely frayed in the Catholic Church. I find the culture that has developed of “I’m just at mass for communion and the graces I will receive and have no interest in anyone else” to be extremely mercenary, cold, and isolating. I appreciate that there are people who simply want to focus on adoring the Sacrament of the mass and are interested in nothing else at church. I see many people at my church who come to mass, don’t say a word to anyone, receive their communion and are straight out the door. Unfortunately I think the Church in America is paying dearly for this. People feel cut off from one another, unsupported, unimportant, not welcomed, and confused. Anyone visiting a Catholic mass for the first time will have almost no idea what is going on. I think of my wife, who was a non-denominational Christian, who has just recently begun to feel in any way accepted or welcomed at a Catholic mass. And at our parish we actually take a moment to greet everyone around us before mass begins, shake hands and hug at the sign of peace, and hold hands during The Lord’s Prayer while we sing it. Personally I find that all to be very beautiful. It creates at least an expression that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and that is more important than petty differences. Again I see what the appeal of a mass like you mentioned has, but worry about the toll such masses ultimately take on the Church and the community.
Sorry if this sounds a bit trite, but it’s not about US – it’s about HIM.

There is a place for socializing and Mass isn’t the place.

There are many opportunities for fellowship :

Coffee and doughnuts after Mass, Parish council meetings, Kof C meetings, Parish BBQ or picnic, Rosary solidarity, etc.
 
Oh and a couple more things I’m considering: no offertory procession (optional in GIRM, but encouraged), no handshaking at sign of peace, and prayers of the faithful (optional in GIRM but highly encouraged) would be ommitted when Mass might run long, for example if there was a speaker at end of Mass or long announcements that day, etc.
With all due respect Father, is it really possible to stop people from shaking hands at the sign of peace, or as I like to do, give my daughter’s a hug and kiss if that is what they wanted to do? I think rather, trying to stop it would frustrate people who prefer it and drive them away. Telling me not to touch my children, or not to turn to a Brother in Christ with whom I had been friends for many years and not shake his hand or touch his shoulder, would do exactly that to me.

You did ask “What do you think?” and so I told you what I thought. I would not like to be told that I should not touch another whom Christ might ask me, as a member of his body, to die for.

-Tim-
 
Sorry if this sounds a bit trite, but it’s not about US – it’s about HIM.

There is a place for socializing and Mass isn’t the place.

There are many opportunities for fellowship :

Coffee and doughnuts after Mass, Parish council meetings, Kof C meetings, Parish BBQ or picnic, Rosary solidarity, etc.
True, but Christ did not appear after the Resurrection to the Apostles individually but as a group. He very much advocated their interaction, and them interacting with each other as well as with him. All of the Church fathers stressed the importance of building up and encouraging each other. I wish more people took part of social gatherings outside of Mass (where they exist…we do not have coffee and doughnuts) but unfortunately part of the culture that has developed in our Church is fulfill your obligation and get out the door. This makes it extremely hard to encourage anyone from outside the Church to consider coming into the Church. (BTW I do not at all support the mentality of “Oh well, that’s their problem”). I very much believe we have a moral responsibility commanded by Christ himself to encourage, support, and build each other up as brothers and sisters. Again I see the appeal of such a mass and would attend one on occasion if by myself to have a more contemplative experience. There needs to be other masses available too, however, if we are to successfully carry on the mission handed down to us.
 
Sorry if this sounds a bit trite, but it’s not about US – it’s about HIM.

There is a place for socializing and Mass isn’t the place.

There are many opportunities for fellowship :

Coffee and doughnuts after Mass, Parish council meetings, Kof C meetings, Parish BBQ or picnic, Rosary solidarity, etc.
Touching another human being at the sign of peace is not trite fellowship akin to doughnuts and coffee after Mass. It is a theological mistake to think so.

The glorified Christ appeared to the disciples in the upper room and said, “Peace be with you.” and he breathed on them. The breath of God incarnate touched them. That same glorified Christ is now on the altar, and as members of His Body we offer each other that same peace. It is a continuation of that event in our lives here and now.

Why someone would not extend the hand of friendship at such a moment, to someone whom Christ might call them to die for, is beyond me. There is something very personal, very incarnational about touching another human being.

*And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. (Matthew 8:3)

he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and served him. (Matthew 8:15)

But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” (Matthew 17:7)

And Jesus in pity touched their eyes, and immediately they received their sight and followed him. (Matthew 20:34)*

I would not like a Mass where I am forbidden to do what Jesus himself does, touch someone whom I love and would be willing to give up my life for.

-Tim-
 
True, but Christ did not appear after the Resurrection to the Apostles individually but as a group. He very much advocated their interaction, and them interacting with each other as well as with him. All of the Church fathers stressed the importance of building up and encouraging each other. I wish more people took part of social gatherings outside of Mass (where they exist…we do not have coffee and doughnuts) but unfortunately part of the culture that has developed in our Church is fulfill your obligation and get out the door. This makes it extremely hard to encourage anyone from outside the Church to consider coming into the Church. (BTW I do not at all support the mentality of “Oh well, that’s their problem”). I very much believe we have a moral responsibility commanded by Christ himself to encourage, support, and build each other up as brothers and sisters. Again I see the appeal of such a mass and would attend one on occasion if by myself to have a more contemplative experience. There needs to be other masses available too, however, if we are to successfully carry on the mission handed down to us.
Sounds like you need to start a coffee and doughnuts social after Sunday Mass 👍
 
Touching another human being at the sign of peace is not trite fellowship akin to doughnuts and coffee after Mass. It is a theological mistake to think so.

The glorified Christ appeared to the disciples in the upper room and said, “Peace be with you.” That same glorified Christ is now on the altar, and as members of His Body, we offer each other that same peace. It is a continuation of that event in our lives here and now.

Why someone would not extend the hand of friendship at such a moment, to someone whom Christ might call them to die for, is beyond me. There is something very personal, very incarnational about touching another human being.

And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. (Matthew 8:3)

he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and served him. (Matthew 8:15)

But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” (Matthew 17:7)

And Jesus in pity touched their eyes, and immediately they received their sight and followed him. (Matthew 20:34)

I would not like a Mass where I am forbidden to do what Jesus himself does, touch someone whom I love and would be willing to give up my life for.

-Tim-
The kiss of peace is optional for laypeople…check the GIRM.

The kiss of peace is mandated only at Solemn High EF Mass, as far as I know.

I stand by my statement that it’s about HIM, not us.

I’ve endured 40+ years of this touchy-feely nonsense, and one only need to look around to see the results.

We need to bring people up to good liturgy, and not water it down in hopes of attracting protestants and others (why would they leave their church if our church looks/acts exactly like theirs) ?
 
I wish that was near me! I would go there in a heartbeat! 🙂

The only thing better would be an EF Mass.👍
 
Yes, the enthusiasm has been noted. I’m sort of surprised, I wasn’t necessarily expecting this. …
that’s mostly because you don’t have a fair sample of opinions. I suggest that if you announced these changes in a new parish, your responses wouldn’t be so highly favorable.
 
Again, but we must out of humble obedience put our own feelings and emotions aside and trust our priest is doing what is best for our parish from the heart of the Church since he, and not us, has spent a considerable number of years studying Church history, liturgy, dogmas and doctrines… Most people do not have an understanding at the significance of various aspects of the Mass beyond face value. We need less I and more HIM in Mass. Personally I believe the sign of peace in many parishes is breaks the focus from Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, and places it on us. We are together in Christ by praying the Mass together. This togetherness does not require physical displays, especially those which turns us from Christ, and back on ourselves.
 
With all due respect Father, is it really possible to stop people from shaking hands at the sign of peace, or as I like to do, give my daughter’s a hug and kiss if that is what they wanted to do? I think rather, trying to stop it would frustrate people who prefer it and drive them away. Telling me not to touch my children, or not to turn to a Brother in Christ with whom I had been friends for many years and not shake his hand or touch his shoulder, would do exactly that to me.

You did ask “What do you think?” and so I told you what I thought. I would not like to be told that I should not touch another whom Christ might ask me, as a member of his body, to die for.

-Tim-
Yes, in terms of “pick your battles”, I would place this one last on the list of options to pursue. It’s hard for me to imagine it going over very well.
 
Tigg,

I know I am new here, and you know Elizabeth502 better than I, but I also recognize “lobbying” when I see it. Everyone, no matter how grounded, and true their intents are, has a tendency to lobby for their desired results. JustaServants response may have been a bit on the harsh side, but he/she is correct in that Elizabeth502 is making a big presentation of the enthusiastic responses that the thread has returned, while making no mention of the “less than enthusiastic” responses. That’s called lobbying. I can just as easily take her post and replace a few words to create my own lobbying effort to show that “most people” are NOT enthused by the notion of this style of Mass. It’s not new. Politicians do it ALL the time. And we all do it too.

Her background and her intelligent and insightful posts on this forum do not provide insurance that she isn’t susceptible to this type of desire to win the debate any more than it is for anyone else. We all want to “pick the winning horse”. It is in our fallen nature!

And remember, Justaservants response isn’t poking at her opinion provided. Everyone has given an opinion. But she then gathered up the opinions and declared “side A” the winner. That tends to rub some people wrong. ( the side B folks )
Thank you.
She actually makes the point herself in another thread:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth502
The remedy for “disagreement” is not to adopt the secular American mindset that its members get to vote on dogma and doctrine, as if faith and morals are equivalent to political policies being advocated at a City Council Meeting.
And she’s right, if I believed otherwise I’d go back to being a Baptist.
I returned to the Catholic Church because I finally submitted to authority.
I wish many traditional Catholics understood that.

Even us horrible “converts and reverts”. 😉
 
With all due respect Father, is it really possible to stop people from shaking hands at the sign of peace, or as I like to do, give my daughter’s a hug and kiss if that is what they wanted to do? I think rather, trying to stop it would frustrate people who prefer it and drive them away. Telling me not to touch my children, or not to turn to a Brother in Christ with whom I had been friends for many years and not shake his hand or touch his shoulder, would do exactly that to me.

You did ask “What do you think?” and so I told you what I thought. I would not like to be told that I should not touch another whom Christ might ask me, as a member of his body, to die for.

-Tim-
I thought the Sign of Peace was optional. Therefore, Father could leave it out altogether. You can still touch your children without the Sign of Peace.
 
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